Modesty?

[BluePanda]

Body language says a lot too. You can be in a short skirt and not be drawing attention to yourself or you can be in an ankle length skirt and be very provocative through your body language, eyes, etc. A woman who swings her hips and bats her eyes is seductive even if she is covered from head to toe. And the imagination can run wild regardless of what anyone is wearing. That is why we are commanded to take every thought captive.

If a skirt is very short, it's going to be more distracting than any woman in an ankle long skirt no matter how hard she is swinging. Yeah, this is just my experience. I don't know what sort of conclusions anyone should draw from that, but I don't think it's realistic to think that someone could dress however and if her demeanor is a certain way it won't make a difference. Does that mean she *shouldn't* wear the short skirt? I'm not saying that.. but.. it's not realistic to think that it won't cause certain knee jerk reactions.

My body type is very curvy. My sister-in-law is much more petite. A sweater dress on me looks very seductive and draws attention to my curves but on her it is not nearly as obvious and much more tasteful. Jeans are another example. There are many different styles of jeans and different body types. To say jeans are the problem is crazy. I think we need to be careful not to get legalistic and determine what clothing is right and what clothing is wrong. There are so many other factors and the condition of the heart and mind are the most important things to consider.

Edit: After I wrote that, I saw your recent post. I agree with you and am not trying to get on your case. I just think that sometimes we focus so much on externals that we forget the heart and motive behind what we do.

Edited November 17, 2012 by BluePanda

[gdemoss]

I know an absolutely stunningly beautiful woman who has never triggered sin within me to have a response to my eyes being in her general direction. I praise God for her modest dress. I love her to death. I have been in congregations of 125-150 women present and absolutely none of them triggered a response in me and I praise God for their perfectly wonderful modest dress. Many of them absolutely stunningly attractive women too. And then I have been in congregations where I know more about what their floors and ceilings look like than the pews due to the overwhelming draw of that which is walking or sitting near by. I admit that I am a man who ruined his mind and knows the depths of Sin from my years of service to him before coming to Christ. But because I have this experience and the experiences with different peoples and churches, I understand my reasoning concerning the use of or lack of modest dress to be exercised beyond normal necessity. I praise God for women who are discreet and chaste and offer up thanksgivings for them. Thank you to each of you women who dress in a way that does not trigger the sin that dwells within my mortal flesh into a fit of desire. You are truly beautiful.

Gary

[BluePanda]

I know an absolutely stunningly beautiful woman who has never triggered sin within me to have a response to my eyes being in her general direction. I praise God for her modest dress. I love her to death. I have been in congregations of 125-150 women present and absolutely none of them triggered a response in me and I praise God for their perfectly wonderful modest dress. Many of them absolutely stunningly attractive women too. And then I have been in congregations where I know more about what their floors and ceilings look like than the pews due to the overwhelming draw of that which is walking or sitting near by. I admit that I am a man who ruined his mind and knows the depths of Sin from my years of service to him before coming to Christ. But because I have this experience and the experiences with different peoples and churches, I understand my reasoning concerning the use of or lack of modest dress to be exercised beyond normal necessity. I praise God for women who are discreet and chaste and offer up thanksgivings for them. Thank you to each of you women who dress in a way that does not trigger the sin that dwells within my mortal flesh into a fit of desire. You are truly beautiful.

Gary

Gary, I'm curious by what you mean by "modest" or "lack of modest" dress. If the "stunningly beautiful woman" you referred to were to wear something like the other congregations you mentioned, would you be tempted to lust after her? I appreciate your desire to honor God with your thought life. I know that some women intentionally try to trigger lust in men and that is wrong. But we don't know the motives of the heart. A women who dresses "immodestly" at church may be wearing the most "modest" item in her wardrobe. We are all at different levels. I used to be extremely legalistic and ultra conservative in my dress (no pants. long, loose skirts, high collared shirts, etc.). I became a like a Pharisee looking down on those who were not as covered as I was and thinking I was more pleasing to the Lord because of my holy attire. But God was not impressed with my self-righteous pride. That was as shameful in His eyes as if I was buck naked. I think the concept that is missing in so many "modesty discussions" is the concept of God's grace. We need God's grace for ourselves and we need to extend that grace to others regardless of how they look or what they do.

[BluePanda]

Body language says a lot too. You can be in a short skirt and not be drawing attention to yourself or you can be in an ankle length skirt and be very provocative through your body language, eyes, etc. A woman who swings her hips and bats her eyes is seductive even if she is covered from head to toe. And the imagination can run wild regardless of what anyone is wearing. That is why we are commanded to take every thought captive.

If a skirt is very short, it's going to be more distracting than any woman in an ankle long skirt no matter how hard she is swinging. Yeah, this is just my experience. I don't know what sort of conclusions anyone should draw from that, but I don't think it's realistic to think that someone could dress however and if her demeanor is a certain way it won't make a difference. Does that mean she *shouldn't* wear the short skirt? I'm not saying that.. but.. it's not realistic to think that it won't cause certain knee jerk reactions.

Your concerns are valid...I think if a woman is a believer and knows that her brother (baryonoctet for example) is more vulnerable to temptation when she wears short skirts, then out of deference, she should consider his needs before her own. I'm not saying that a woman should flaunt her sexuality (except for her husband in the privacy of their home). But being fasionable and feminine is not a sin. What if a woman wears black leggings and boots under her short skirt? Is it still a temptation? Short skirts are not necessarily the problem. The body type of the woman, the way she wears it and the context that she is in are all factors.

Yeah, sure. It is true that any attractive lady could be distracting this way basically no matter how she dresses and fundamentally this isn't *her* problem, certainly not her fault. I meant my comments from a more pragmatic standpoint taking into consideration more extreme examples of something like a 'very' short skirt, it's unrealistic to think that won't make things more difficult for many, most, men. Even then it's not really her problem in that I am really not intending to excuse inappropriate reactions, but if she is wanting to have certain kinds of purely friendly interactions with males that will hinder her desires. If she is dressing reasonably in the context of her culture really that's all that she can do, and I certainly don't think anyone should feel like she ought to hide herself. I didn't mean to imply there was any sin on her part, in either case, just to clarify.

Thanks for clarifying. I do see what you are saying. I agree that if a woman dresses like a tramp then it could be difficult for a Christian man to feel comfortable interacting with her as a friend. But I am also reminded of a missionary biography I read about a man and his wife who ministered in a red light district among prostitutes. They loved these girls and saw past their outward appearance to their hurting hearts. They did not try to cover them up but they shared the love of Christ with them which is able to "cover a multitude of sins". If we could see as Jesus sees, I don't think we would allow immodesty to distract us or hinder us from reaching out in Christlike love.

Edit: I don't want to downplay or make light of the struggle of guarding the eyes. I know it can be very difficult, for men often more than women. To be able to see the opposite sex (especially when they are dressed in a distracting or seductive way) and to picture them as Christ sees them, covered with love and compassion, is a discipline that requires the Holy Spirit's enabling power.

Edited November 17, 2012 by BluePanda

[lmab]

I'm a little foggy this morning so hope this makes sense. In the past our youth pastor was teaching a "bounce off" exersize to the youth. Meaning make it a habit to bounce your eyes off of any part of the opposite sex's body. The longer you look the more ingrained a thought becomes. There is nothing wrong with noticing that someone is attractive or that they look good in that outfit - those thoughts are not sinful, just an acknowledgement of a fact. The sin comes when we lust after them causing us to desire and fantasize having sex with that person. Lust is actually extremely creepy, unless of course you are lusting after your spouse!!

[nebula]

After my first comment and the response to it, I thought I'd sit back and observe the conversation.

I am thinking I was not the only one who missed hearing what the article in the OP was saying.

For the women:

Modesty in dress is good, but it needs to be an attitude not just attire.

For the men:

It is not good to blame women for your lust problem. At some point you need to take responsibility for your end.

That said, yes, we women do need to tone down the skin exposure, cleavage, etc. that is popular in our culture.

Men are stimulated by sight the way we are stimulated by emotional and physical touch (the difference though is they get the physical sensation with sight as we do with touch, but they enjoy and are drawn to it the way we enjoy and are drawn to emotional touch).

But guys, please don't force us into long sleeves and long pants on hot, humid summer days (!).

[enoob57]

I'm a little foggy this morning so hope this makes sense. In the past our youth pastor was teaching a "bounce off" exercise to the youth. Meaning make it a habit to bounce your eyes off of any part of the opposite sex's body. The longer you look the more ingrained a thought becomes. There is nothing wrong with noticing that someone is attractive or that they look good in that outfit - those thoughts are not sinful, just an acknowledgment of a fact. The sin comes when we lust after them causing us to desire and fantasize having sex with that person. Lust is actually extremely creepy, unless of course you are lusting after your spouse!!

The truly righteous way God teaches is absence of lust! This is impossible for the flesh as it is ingrained from the birth to do so... but we who are born of Spirit

exercise the reality beyond this life where the exercise of sex is no more and that which ends is not to be of any influence to our hearts for God is about eternal things!

Live in the Kingdom of Christ even while in a foreign country! Love, Steven

[GoldenEagle]

After my first comment and the response to it, I thought I'd sit back and observe the conversation.

I am thinking I was not the only one who missed hearing what the article in the OP was saying.

For the women:

Modesty in dress is good, but it needs to be an attitude not just attire.

For the men:

It is not good to blame women for your lust problem. At some point you need to take responsibility for your end.

That said, yes, we women do need to tone down the skin exposure, cleavage, etc. that is popular in our culture.

Men are stimulated by sight the way we are stimulated by emotional and physical touch (the difference though is they get the physical sensation with sight as we do with touch, but they enjoy and are drawn to it the way we enjoy and are drawn to emotional touch).

But guys, please don't force us into long sleeves and long pants on hot, humid summer days (!).

Good thoughts Nebula. I agree.

[GoldenEagle]

I'm a little foggy this morning so hope this makes sense. In the past our youth pastor was teaching a "bounce off" exercise to the youth. Meaning make it a habit to bounce your eyes off of any part of the opposite sex's body. The longer you look the more ingrained a thought becomes. There is nothing wrong with noticing that someone is attractive or that they look good in that outfit - those thoughts are not sinful, just an acknowledgment of a fact. The sin comes when we lust after them causing us to desire and fantasize having sex with that person. Lust is actually extremely creepy, unless of course you are lusting after your spouse!!

The truly righteous way God teaches is absence of lust! This is impossible for the flesh as it is ingrained from the birth to do so... but we who are born of Spirit

exercise the reality beyond this life where the exercise of sex is no more and that which ends is not to be of any influence to our hearts for God is about eternal things!

Live in the Kingdom of Christ even while in a foreign country! Love, Steven

I'm not sure if lust after your spouse is the best terminology. It is healthy to desire intimacy with your spouse physically... But also it healthy to desire intimacy with your spouse emotionally, intellectually, and most importantly spiritually. As long as one doesn't view one's spouse as an object and seeks only to please ones self than desiring one's spouse is a healthy thing. We are to put the needs of our spouse before our own and we are to point others to Christ including our spouses.

God bless,

GE

[jasoncran]

if one hasnt lusted after ones spouse then one didnt fall in love with her or him in the first place. it happens.

that said. i have a problem with my eyes and the amount of clothing doesnt matter.