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Matthew 24:29-31, is this the rapture or second coming or both?


rollinTHUNDER

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IF you find a good Greek text, you will see that John wrote, (Rev. 1) I John in THE tribulation..." The "THE" is there is every Greek text I have found, yet no translator has dared translate it. It seems in the mind of God, the entire church age is "the tribulation" and parts of it have been "great tribulation." That is why those two words were not enough for Jesus to describe those days following the abmination: He had to add that there never was and never will be such a terrible time as what is coming.

 

Did you ever would WHY the marriage  and marriage supper are in chapter 19, after the entire 70th week is finished? If you notice in John chapter 6, Jesus says over and over that He will "raise them up" on the "last day." This is for the Old Testament saints: they will be raised on the last day. That last day is the same day the 7th vial ends the 70th week. They will be guests for the wedding  - so the wedding MUST wait until they are resurrected. So how long a time after the 7th vial ends the week, until Jesus gets on the Horse? Perhaps it is 30 days....but it is only a guess. Can you see why anyone thinking they KNOW the day Jesus returns are all wet? NO ONE will know the day. It will just be some short period of time after the 7th vial.

 

I have yet to have a post-tribber explain HOW they will get to the marriage supper. One told me the supper would be on the earth..........WRONG! Anyone got any ideas?  lamad

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I'm always for letting scripture interpret itself wherever possible, So I would suggest going to the beginning of the passage to get a perfectly clear answer for the context

 

in verse 24:3

 

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

 

 

there can be no mistake in identifying the verses 29-31

they plainly describe both the sign and the gathering of those waiting in heaven, (considering Paul teaches the first resurrection and the we who are alive rapture is one after the other), then I conclude the rapture also happens, and as we see His second coming is there, so its pretty conclusive that we arrive with the Lord, as this is how the bible describes His coming

 

Very interesting: Yes, Paul does say that Jesus brings the spirits of the dead in Christ with Him. But was their gathering in heaven to be a part of the rapture on earth? (Am I following your thoughts here?)  That is a HUGE stretch. I think a better idea is that this gathering has nothing at all to do with the rapture of the bride, but rather is God fulfulling His promise to bring all the Jews (Hebrews) back to Israel.

 

Is. 11:11

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

 

Isaiah 43

 5Fear not, for I am with you; I will bring your descendants from the east, And gather you from the west; 6I will say to the north, "Give them up!' And to the south, "Do not keep them back!' Bring My sons from afar, And My daughters from the ends of the earth--

7Everyone who is called by My name, Whom I have created for My glory; I have formed him, yes, I have made him."

 

Jeremiah 31

6For there shall be a day when the watchmen will cry on Mount Ephraim, "arise, and let us go up to Zion, to the LORD our God."'

7For thus says the LORD: "sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations; proclaim, give praise, and say, "O LORD, save Your people, The remnant of Israel!' 8Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the ends of the earth, among them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and the one who labors with child, together; a great throng shall return there.

10"Hear the word of the LORD, O nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, "He who scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him as a shepherd does his flock.

 

Since the rapture will gather from the EARTH, not from heaven, I think it is very poor exegesis to make this gathering in Matt. a rapture, especially when there are several other verses that explain that God will gather the JEWS.

 

Lamad

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Talking with some believers, it seems to me that they want to go through the Tribulation as a means to somehow prove themselves worthy to God. :crazy:

And what is even creepier is that some think it would be some kind of adventure. :o

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1.At the rapture,believers meet the Lord in the air 1Thessalonians 4:17.

At the second coming,believers return with the Lord to the Earth Revelation 19:14.

2.The second coming occurs after the Great and terrible tribulation(Revelation chapter 6-19).

The rapture occurs before the tribulation 1Thessalonians 5:9;Revelation3;10.

3.The rapture is the removal of the believers from Earth as an act of deliverance 1Thessalonians 4:13-17;5:9.

The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment Mathew 24;40-41.

4.The rapture will be secret and instant 1Corinthians 15:50-54.

The second coming will be visible to all Revelation 1:7;Mathew 24:29-30.

5.The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place 2Thessalonians 2:4;Mathew 24:15-20;Revelation chapters 6-18.

The rapture is imminent;it could take place at any moment Titus 2:13;1Thessalonians 4:13-18;1Corinthians 15:50-54.

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Yeah what she said.... :red_smile: ......... :thumbsup:

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Shalom, rollinTHUNDER.

 

 

 

Talking with some believers, it seems to me that they want to go through the Tribulation as a means to somehow prove themselves worthy to God. :crazy:


To answer the OP question, both.

 

Hi Omegaman,

If this is both, the rapture and the second coming, there doesn't appear to be any time for the marriage supper of the lamb to occur, for those who are ready when He appears. And there doesn't appear to be any time for the martyr's to reject the mark of the beast and be killed. This is important, since they will be returning with Christ to reign for 1000 years as well. Then finally, who are the sheep that are separated from the goats when He comes at the end of chapter 25? How would you account for these events?

 

 

Have you even considered that both the marriage supper of the Lamb and the Judgment Seat of Christ are at the BEGINNING of the Millennium instead of during the seven years?

 

Consider Yeshua`s words at the Last Supper, His Last Pesach Seder (Passover Feast) with His students:

 

Matthew 26:27-29

 

27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

KJV

    

Luke 22:17-18

17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:

18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

KJV

 

And yet, as we learn from the marriage at Cana, our Master's first miracle, wine is an INTEGRAL part of the Jewish marriage supper! And, the Father's Kingdom, the Kingdom of God, is NOT in "heaven" but is rather right here on this earth after the Messiah returns!

 

Then, in answer to your questions about Matthew 25, the "sheep" are those nations who treated His people well, and His people are both the Isra'elites (His natural Family) and the believers grafted into the Olive Tree against nature (His adopted Family). The "goats" are those nations who mistreated and abused His people! This is a WAR TRIBUNAL and it occurs AFTER the battle at Har-Megiddown, or as it is known today, "Tel Megiddo," the tel that overlooks the Yizra`'el (Jezreel) Valley east and south of Haifa, Isra'el, and Mount Karmel. All the nations who came to fight in the multi-nation confrontation must answer at that time to the new Melekh Yisra'el (the new King of Isra'el). Neither the "sheep" nations nor the "goat" nations are God's people! They are the ones who are judged for HOW they treated God's people!

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One should REALLY consider Daniel 12:12 -  For if I am correct in my understanding... IT IS the only time (-- at least the only written time I know of ) written where God gives a "blanket" BLESSING to the entire World.  MY understanding is this... God's Word tells us to Bless those that curse him...  God would not Bless those that need no Blessing ( Because they were to be taken in the "rapture" and are taken just before the fulfillment of Daniel 12:12 ) - and so this Blessing comes JUST AFTER the rapture.  Next, The Believers left behind to assist the fence walkers and the fence walkers would NEED a blessing.  And those that curse God would be Blessed --- because it is when God Blesses those that curse him - just like he tells us to do.   So... Although this does not give us the day nor the hour - it does gives us a localized time clue.  And this gives better insight to a mid-term rapture.

 

 

Rollinthunder wrote:  "  Talking with some believers, it seems to me that they want to go through the Tribulation as a means to somehow prove themselves worthy to God. "

 

To this I would ask... Who are left behind but the strong to help the fence walkers and even non-believers that understand the Mark of the Beast is about to be put upon them and really wish guidance for better understanding?  And who should rule over those raptured other than those who went through the dire parts of Tribulation than those who put their heads on the line For their Testimony and well-being FOR God?

 

Jesus said those caught up in the air will remain with him... SO... Since Jesus will come back to the earth and these people will remain with him... then they too ( those raptured - spared the perils of the Great Tribulation) will come back to the earth...with him.  This means it is then... during that 1,000 year reign that these people taste the first death - just like prophecy tells of.

 

How do I do a "signature" here?

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Shalom, rollinTHUNDER.

 

 

 

Talking with some believers, it seems to me that they want to go through the Tribulation as a means to somehow prove themselves worthy to God. :crazy:

To answer the OP question, both.

 

Hi Omegaman,

If this is both, the rapture and the second coming, there doesn't appear to be any time for the marriage supper of the lamb to occur, for those who are ready when He appears. And there doesn't appear to be any time for the martyr's to reject the mark of the beast and be killed. This is important, since they will be returning with Christ to reign for 1000 years as well. Then finally, who are the sheep that are separated from the goats when He comes at the end of chapter 25? How would you account for these events?

 

 

Have you even considered that both the marriage supper of the Lamb and the Judgment Seat of Christ are at the BEGINNING of the Millennium instead of during the seven years?

 

Consider Yeshua`s words at the Last Supper, His Last Pesach Seder (Passover Feast) with His students:

 

Matthew 26:27-29

 

27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

KJV

    

Luke 22:17-18

17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:

18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

KJV

 

And yet, as we learn from the marriage at Cana, our Master's first miracle, wine is an INTEGRAL part of the Jewish marriage supper! And, the Father's Kingdom, the Kingdom of God, is NOT in "heaven" but is rather right here on this earth after the Messiah returns!

 

Then, in answer to your questions about Matthew 25, the "sheep" are those nations who treated His people well, and His people are both the Isra'elites (His natural Family) and the believers grafted into the Olive Tree against nature (His adopted Family). The "goats" are those nations who mistreated and abused His people! This is a WAR TRIBUNAL and it occurs AFTER the battle at Har-Megiddown, or as it is known today, "Tel Megiddo," the tel that overlooks the Yizra`'el (Jezreel) Valley east and south of Haifa, Isra'el, and Mount Karmel. All the nations who came to fight in the multi-nation confrontation must answer at that time to the new Melekh Yisra'el (the new King of Isra'el). Neither the "sheep" nations nor the "goat" nations are God's people! They are the ones who are judged for HOW they treated God's people!

 

I think we MUST follow what John wrote and allow his writing to form our beliefs. John clearly shows the wedding and supper IN HEAVEN before He gets on the white horse. Therefore I am conviced it will happen just as he wrote it. I might add, there are several who have been in heaven and seen the tables all ready, stretching out as far as the eyes can see - and came back to tell and write what they saw.

 

If we believe in John's chronology, a post trib rapture will not work! They will miss the wedding and supper.

 

Next, if the rapture took place at the time of Jesus on the white horse, where would there be any sheep for the judgment of the nations? The righteous people would all have bodies as angels. Again, a posttrib rapture will not work.

 

Lamad

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One should REALLY consider Daniel 12:12 -  For if I am correct in my understanding... IT IS the only time (-- at least the only written time I know of ) written where God gives a "blanket" BLESSING to the entire World. 

 

For Thou Shalt Rest, And Stand In Thy Lot

 

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. Job 19:25-27

 

At The End Of The Days

 

And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

 

Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

 

But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days. Daniel 12:9-13

 

~

 

How do I do a "signature" here?

 

Go To Your Profile And Add it

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Shalom, Lamad.

 

 

Shalom, rollinTHUNDER.

 

 

 

Talking with some believers, it seems to me that they want to go through the Tribulation as a means to somehow prove themselves worthy to God. :crazy:


To answer the OP question, both.

 

Hi Omegaman,

If this is both, the rapture and the second coming, there doesn't appear to be any time for the marriage supper of the lamb to occur, for those who are ready when He appears. And there doesn't appear to be any time for the martyr's to reject the mark of the beast and be killed. This is important, since they will be returning with Christ to reign for 1000 years as well. Then finally, who are the sheep that are separated from the goats when He comes at the end of chapter 25? How would you account for these events?

 

 

Have you even considered that both the marriage supper of the Lamb and the Judgment Seat of Christ are at the BEGINNING of the Millennium instead of during the seven years?

 

Consider Yeshua`s words at the Last Supper, His Last Pesach Seder (Passover Feast) with His students:

 

Matthew 26:27-29

 

27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

KJV

    

Luke 22:17-18

17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:

18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

KJV

 

And yet, as we learn from the marriage at Cana, our Master's first miracle, wine is an INTEGRAL part of the Jewish marriage supper! And, the Father's Kingdom, the Kingdom of God, is NOT in "heaven" but is rather right here on this earth after the Messiah returns!

 

Then, in answer to your questions about Matthew 25, the "sheep" are those nations who treated His people well, and His people are both the Isra'elites (His natural Family) and the believers grafted into the Olive Tree against nature (His adopted Family). The "goats" are those nations who mistreated and abused His people! This is a WAR TRIBUNAL and it occurs AFTER the battle at Har-Megiddown, or as it is known today, "Tel Megiddo," the tel that overlooks the Yizra`'el (Jezreel) Valley east and south of Haifa, Isra'el, and Mount Karmel. All the nations who came to fight in the multi-nation confrontation must answer at that time to the new Melekh Yisra'el (the new King of Isra'el). Neither the "sheep" nations nor the "goat" nations are God's people! They are the ones who are judged for HOW they treated God's people!

 

I think we MUST follow what John wrote and allow his writing to form our beliefs. John clearly shows the wedding and supper IN HEAVEN before He gets on the white horse. Therefore I am conviced it will happen just as he wrote it. I might add, there are several who have been in heaven and seen the tables all ready, stretching out as far as the eyes can see - and came back to tell and write what they saw.

 

If we believe in John's chronology, a post trib rapture will not work! They will miss the wedding and supper.

 

Next, if the rapture took place at the time of Jesus on the white horse, where would there be any sheep for the judgment of the nations? The righteous people would all have bodies as angels. Again, a posttrib rapture will not work.

 

Lamad

 

 

Not so, bro'. If you want to strictly follow the timing of the Revelation, you must also adhere to the time when the Kingdom is given to the Messiah! This occurred in Rev. 11:15-19:

 

    

Revelation 11:15-19

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord (YHWH), and of his Christ (Messiah); and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come (a reference to Psalm 2:1-12), and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

KJV

 

Psalm 2:1-12

Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his Anointed (Hebrew: Mashiyach), saying,

"Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us."

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

"Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7 I will declare the decree: 'the LORD hath said unto me, <<Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.>>'

10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11 Serve the Lord  with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him."

KJV (quotation marks added; words of the kings in blue; words of the Messiah in red; words of God the Father in purple)

 

This occurs ON THE EARTH! Some say that the first time the Messiah is seen on the earth is in Revelation 19:11-21, but that is just when He comes WITH HIS ARMY already raised from the dead, well equipped with horses and battle equipment, trained and ready to fight against the enemies of Isra'el. Consider the following verse:

 

Revelation 14:1

14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion (Hebrew: har Tsiown = the "holy hill of Zion"), and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

KJV

 

and

 

Revelation 19:11-21

11 And I saw heaven (Greek: ouranos = the sky) opened (Greek: eeneoogmenon from anoigoo, the same word used in Revelation 11:19 and Matthew 3:16), and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven (Greek: ouranos = the sky) followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: (another reference to Psalm 2:1-12) and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

KJV

 

These last verses 17 through 21 refer specifically to the aftermath of the battle at Har-Megiddown (Armageddon), the watchtower overlooking the valley of Yizre`'el (Jezreel), east and southeast of Haifa, Isra'el.

 

    

Joel 3:9-17

9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:

10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.

11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.

12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat ("YHWH will judge"): for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

KJV

 

and the resurrection has already occurred by this time!

 

    

Zechariah 12:7-14

7 The Lord  also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

KJV

 

It's simply that a bad understanding of "heaven" has given rise to all sorts of untenable interpretations of Revelation.

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