Do we really go to heaven just as soon as we die?

[John Robinson]

ETA: the above is strictly my own view; I'm sure many will disagree with me. But I'm sticking to it!

[Bible_Gazer]

Jesus came to do something different then what the OT offered.

He came to give us victory over death and the grave now, not later.

The OT saints, all they ever got was a promise of a resurrection from the dead.

Question = what is the dead in Christ ?

are you dead or are you alive ?

Jesus went to the place Under the earth which was called paradise when he was hung on the cross , he brought the OT saints back to life and they walked the earth giving their testimony of Jesus the Christ risen from the grave for 40 days and then went to heaven with Christ .

The term dead in Christ' means the people who have accepted Christ as Lord and savoir of their personal life, they are those who's spirit goes to heaven when they die , and also will receive an immortal glorified body when Christ calls those in 1st Thess chap 4 and 1st Corinth chap 15 to come up into the air to meet Jesus in the air.

Anyone who dies and is not 'dead in Christ" will never be in heaven and will face the Great white throne judgment and be eternally separated from God , never to be a part of the family of God because they did not choose Christ when they were alive and able to make that choice.

Symbolically when we accept Christ and that he died in our place , we are a new creation , we have died to our selfish ways and have submitted ourselves to Christs ways , it is thought of as having died to carnal selfish human ways , and being reborn in the spirit of God ,

being called 'born-again' Christian .

In a manner of speaking that in doing such we have created a permanent ticket to heaven for when our body dies we go straight to be in the presence of the LORD

Until then since we still have a mortal body we need to confess our sins each day for even though we are born again Christians we still are mortal flesh and blood humans that will sin from temptation that we are confronted with each day.

According to Romans 6 we are to be dead unto sin in Christ Jesus.

If we are dead how can the flesh sin ?

Temptation is in the heart not the flesh. (what is born again the heart(soul) or body)

The flesh follows the heart.

I never read Jesus went into the earth to bring back the OT saints (where is under the earth ?)

and I never read anybody went with Jesus to heaven on Mt. Olive the day he left his Apostles.

[Bible_Gazer]

I don't think I really read or heard the real reason for a spirit to be united with its old body which won't be flesh anyway.

Who cares about something that most likely for most people the body don't even exist anymore, its gone to dust or rotted in the sea.

God is going to have to create a new dead body then bring it alive from the grave without a soul then take you out of heaven and put you into it.

Then people will be thinking he rose from the dead - when actually you were in heaven.

[AlexanderJ]

Well you know its kinda funny or weird when you go to a funeral home some preacher, preach the person went to

heaven and we are gonna meet them someday.

Then.... you go to the grave yard then they preach about them gonna get resurrected.

are they dead or alive ?

Jesus came to do something different then what the OT offered.

He came to give us victory over death and the grave now, not later.

The OT saints, all they ever got was a promise of a resurrection from the dead.

Jesus made a better way.

Question = what is the dead in Christ ?

are you dead or are you alive ?

Read Romans 6 - how many ways are we dead

is there anything showing dead in the grave for us ?

The Spirit is immortal (it cannot die) and goes straight to God after the physical body dies:

Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The body, however, is dead and the Spirit awaits (I don't know if you can really call it "waiting" in the sense that we mortals commonly use the word as "the experience of duration", because it is commonly held that Paradise is a timeless place, and those who abide there do not experience duration as we do - I use "awaits" for lack of a better term) the bodies' ressurection in Paradise.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

So, to summarize the matter, the bodies of the dead are what will be ressurected, not their Spirits. Those who die (whether they be believers or not) only die physically. The Spirit, very much alive, returns to the God that made it and is placed in Sheol.

Edited December 19, 2012 by AlexanderJ

[AlexanderJ]

Jesus said:

Matthew 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am (note the present tense) the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

This can only mean that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were alive at the time that Jesus said this. This, (as far as I can see) irrevocably establishes the belief that the Spirit remains alive and is with God, even before the ressurection of the body.

[franciskelsey]

Dan and J (above), I agree with both of your postings.

When we die, our soul goes to be with Jesus Who is in heaven. When we are ressurrected, it is our bodies being made new and reunited with our souls. Jesus led all out of Hades that belonged to Him after His death on the cross. I will back all this up with scripture if asked.

My main point of this post is to ask a couple questions for those who do believe in soul sleep.

(1) new living translation 12:24-27

24Jesus replied, “Your mistake is that you don’t know the Scriptures, and you don’t know the power of God. 25For when the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage. In this respect they will be like the angels in heaven.

26“But now, as to whether the dead will be raised—haven’t you ever read about this in the writings of Moses, in the story of the burning bush? Long after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had died, God said to Moses,^e ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’^f 27So he is the God of the living, not the dead. You have made a serious error.”

So even though this verse has just been stated, are Abraham, Isacc and Jacob in soul sleep or alive? If soul sleep, how can God be the God of dead?

(2)

<< 1 Samuel 28 >>

New Living Translation

11Finally, the woman said, “Well, whose spirit do you want me to call up?”

“Call up Samuel,” Saul replied.

12When the woman saw Samuel, she screamed, “You’ve deceived me! You are Saul!”

13“Don’t be afraid!” the king told her. “What do you see?”

“I see a god^b coming up out of the earth,” she said.

14“What does he look like?” Saul asked.

“He is an old man wrapped in a robe,” she replied. Saul realized it was Samuel, and he fell to the ground before him.

15“Why have you disturbed me by calling me back?” Samuel asked Saul.

“Because I am in deep trouble,” Saul replied. “The Philistines are at war with me, and God has left me and won’t reply by prophets or dreams. So I have called for you to tell me what to do.”

16But Samuel replied, “Why ask me, since the Lord has left you and has become your enemy? 17The Lord has done just as he said he would. He has torn the kingdom from you and given it to your rival, David. 18The Lord has done this to you today because you refused to carry out his fierce anger against the Amalekites. 19What’s more, the Lord will hand you and the army of Israel over to the Philistines tomorrow, and you and your sons will be here with me. The Lord will bring down the entire army of Israel in defeat.”

20Saul fell full length on the ground, paralyzed with fright because of Samuel’s words. He was also faint with hunger, for he had eaten nothing all day and all night.

21When the woman saw how distraught he was, she said, “Sir, I obeyed your command at the risk of my life. 22Now do what I say, and let me give you a little something to eat so you can regain your strength for the trip back.”

Was Samual in soul sleep? If so, how did he know or how was he aware of everything Saul has done?

(3) Philippians 1: 21For to me, living means living for Christ, and dying is even better. 22But if I live, I can do more fruitful work for Christ. So I really don’t know which is better. 23I’m torn between two desires: I long to go and be with Christ, which would be far better for me. 24But for your sakes, it is better that I continue to live.

25Knowing this, I am convinced that I will remain alive so I can continue to help all of you grow and experience the joy of your faith. 26And when I come to you again, you will have even more reason to take pride in Christ Jesus because of what he is doing through me.

Live as Citizens of Heaven

27Above all, you must live as citizens of heaven

So, if we are to be with Jesus when we die, where will we be, and why must we live as citizens of heaven? When replying, please consider Acts 3:21; 1 Peter 3:21-22; Hebrews 8:1-2 which places Jesus at the right hand of the Father in heaven.

(4) Luke 23:43

New Living Translation (©2007)

And Jesus replied, "I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise."

So where was this man after he died? Was he in soul sleep?

For me, it seems believing in soul sleep takes away part of the very promise given by Jesus, and a fear of death again would seem to be back in play.

God bless

[allofgrace]

I don't think I really read or heard the real reason for a spirit to be united with its old body which won't be flesh anyway.

Who cares about something that most likely for most people the body don't even exist anymore, its gone to dust or rotted in the sea.

God is going to have to create a new dead body then bring it alive from the grave without a soul then take you out of heaven and put you into it.

Then people will be thinking he rose from the dead - when actually you were in heaven.

Then why don't you take this passage and explain to us what it really means, 1 Cor 15:42-54 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

[Guest]

Question = what is the dead in Christ ?

are you dead or are you alive ?

Read Romans 6 - how many ways are we dead

is there anything showing dead in the grave for us?

Dead

For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Psalms 51:16-17

To Self

But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. Galatians 6:14

~

And From Death

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. Job 19:25-27

To

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. Matthew 27:50-54

Life

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Matthew 22:29-32

[Bible_Gazer]

How can a spirit be immortal ?

Who gave it power to live forever if it is not saved ?

Are we really trying to save our body ? its the body that is blessed because it gonna get resurrected. - if the soul never die

Does the spirit have a body if so then why does it need a dead resurrection earth body ?

So if all souls(spirit) return unto God who gave it, then everybody is up there with him alive ??? sinners and ungodly evil sinners and atheist and all ..........

,

Will the body be resurrected male and female and baby bodies ? or will every body be equal ?

What is the body which is from heaven to be clothed with ?

2Cor.5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven

Where does it say that people during the next 1,000 will get a new body ?

If they die will the be resurrected at 2nd resurrection ?

[GoldenEagle]

I think Stephen went to heaven and has a new body.

Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

2Cor.5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

Show me some scripture that say "Steven went to heaven" We must remember that Jesus is our example and all that happened to him will happen to us which means that we will first decend into the lower reaches of the earth before we are raised from the grave. What did Jesus say to the thief on the cross? He said "this day you shall be with me in paradise" now we all know that Jesus first decended and since the thief went with Christ that very death which is the day of His death, the thief went with Christ into Paradise.

Desiring "to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: IS A LONG WAYS FROM BEING CLOTHED WITH OUR HEAVENLY CLOTHING.

Well read this again

What did Stephen see before being stoned ? - Jesus

Was this not Jesus coming for him ? - sure

Stephen was a educated man in the Gospel and asked Jesus to come and get him he knew his body was going to die.

So the flesh died and Stephen moved out a live spirit and went to heaven and not to be naked he got an heavenly body.

Why would you want to raise a dead body when you are already alive in heaven ?

God has to speak a body back into existence so that ____________________________ ? what purpose ?

If the body is going to be raised from the grave and then changed into a heavenly body anyway,

why come back down here and be dead again and be resurrected from out of the ground, just get it while you are already up there.

You said "Was this not Jesus coming for him ? - sure" and this statement is wrong. In the scriptures you are talking about Jesus isn't coming or going. The scripture says that Jesus "IS STANDING AT THE THRONE OF GOD". "Standing" is not a motion word.

Again you said "Stephen was a educated man in the Gospel and asked Jesus to come and get him he knew his body was going to die". Where in the bible does it say that Jesus was asking Jesus for anything?

Holy Moly if there is anybody who adds to what scripture really says it is you. Stephen never asks Jesus to come and get him at anytime. Nor does the bible ever say that Jesus came to get Stephen at any time. In fact nothing is spoken at all about where Stephen went after he died. Where are you getting this stuff?

You asked a great question which gives doubt to this going to heaven the moment we die "Why would you want to raise a dead body when you are already alive in heaven?"

No one including God would need to raise a dead body if that person was already living in heaven. But if one is still in the grave and not in heaven then God would need to speak that person out of the grave. Which God will do on the day of resurrection of the dead in Christ. Because no one is already in heaven. :clap:

"Soul sleep," which Massorite seems to be advocating, is a tenet of the Jehovah's Witnesses, and definitely has no basis in scripture.

Massorite, are you advocating "Soul sleep"? What is your view on the Jehovah's Witnesses?

God bless,

GE