Another Wacky Question

[Tinky]

I was thinking about this the other day, and I felt I had to ask my Worthy Family for some input.

Jesus said that nobody can be saved except through Him (John 14:6), and the Bible says salvation is found in nobody else (Acts 4:12)

Sooo...

If people were saved before Jesus came by looking forward in faith to the coming Messiah, (as we are saved by looking back to the Messiah Jesus in faith) then why was the sacrificial system needed?

Why didn't people simply put their faith in the coming Messiah as first mentioned in Genesis 3:15, and thus be saved apart from the system of animal sacrifice?

Afterall, the Bible itself says it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

What gives?

[nebula]

Maybe someone else will have a better theological discourse answer to give, but I am content with understanding this in a simple way.

Sin is costly. But because of the strength of our sin nature, we don't grasp how costly it is - rather, how costly our own sin is (it's easy to pick apart others' sin, but facing one's own sin is tough).

But imagine if you had to slaughter an animal you raised to pay the price for your violation of the Torah (your sin).

Something to consider, the people of the Scriptures lived under the Eastern rather than the Western mindset. The Western mindset is about logic and reason. Eastern is about doing. The concept of visuals rather than an essay to make a point is more effective in their thinking. Thus, having to "act out" the penalty, the cost, and the method for atonement and redemption would be important and had meaning to them.

Now try to explain the sacrifice of Jesus without the grounding of the sacrificial system.

[Mcgyver]

I was thinking about this the other day, and I felt I had to ask my Worthy Family for some input.

Jesus said that nobody can be saved except through Him (John 14:6), and the Bible says salvation is found in nobody else (Acts 4:12)

Sooo...

If people were saved before Jesus came by looking forward in faith to the coming Messiah, (as we are saved by looking back to the Messiah Jesus in faith) then why was the sacrificial system needed?

Why didn't people simply put their faith in the coming Messiah as first mentioned in Genesis 3:15, and thus be saved apart from the system of animal sacrifice?

Afterall, the Bible itself says it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

What gives?

Nothing wacky...I love your questions!!! The challenge me to ***shudder***....think!

I hope that you bear with me here...this is a "one bite at a time" type of thing...

I reckon a good place to start is with the system of sacrifice. Obviously this is multifaceted, so I'll try to be brief.

The system was never designed to "save", but to show just how serious sin is. Sin results in death, pure and simple... Even in the Garden of Eden something had to die as a result of Adam's sin: Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them. Gen. 3:21.

The system was designed to show that there was a penalty for sin, and that penalty was the blood of something innocent; in this case an animal: For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’ Lev 17:11

The system was designed to show how abhorrent sin is to God. These altars were never cleaned...and we are talking about a smoky wood fire that didn't burn everything. On these altars would be the remains of past sacrifices...hair, blood and fat that had run into the nooks and crannies of the altar...maggots feeding on bits of meat...the stench...all painted a picture of what sin is in the eyes of God.

Finally, the system was designed to show that (until Christ) there was never a perfect sacrifice that would continue to cleanse from sin...If one sinned 5 minutes after a sacrifice was made then the whole thing had to be done again. We are told that the law (and with it the system of sacrifice) was our tutor to bring us to Christ.

There is obviously more involved, but as a broad overview these are kind of the "high spots".

Secondly, as far as the OT folks being "saved".

We know that from Genesis to Revelation that righteousness has always been through faith. A quick look at Hebrews 11 will confirm this....

But yet, until Christ and His sacrifice, the gates of Heaven were firmly closed...so "saved" as you're using it in reference to the OT folks is not the same as we use today. Rather, the OT folks who were found faithful were kept in that place known as "Abraham's Bosom", or "Paradise" until the day of Christ, for until Christ the penalty for sin was not paid.

We might say that the OT saints obtained "Mercy" (not getting what they deserved) and after Christ received "Grace" (that which they didn't deserve)...complete and full reconciliation with God.

As far as people not putting their faith in Messiah to come, how does one put their faith into something or someone they couldn't know? Even now it's written "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

The revelation as far as to who Messiah would be is progressive in nature. In Genesis we just know he'll come...later on we find out that he'll be born of a virgin, that he'll be born in Bethlehem, that he'll be of the tribe of Judah, that he'll be of the house of David, etc., etc.

Full circle, how could they put their faith into a future (in their time an as yet) unrevealed Messiah? What they could do (but so many times didn't do) was place their faith in God.

This is kind of quick, but I hope it helps out a little bit.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Mcgyver

[other one]

The blood of bulls and goats on their own couldn't take away sin. It was all part of a temporary system that people had to go through while they waited on the Messiah. It is not like the sacrifice was for nothing. It would cover sins, but as soon as you went and did something wrong again, another animal had to die. In the case of Jesus, that one time sacrifice was sufficient for all sins anyone could commit. If you mess up now, and you confess those sins to God, he will remember Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, and you will be forgiven. No more animal sacrifces. Had Jesus not come and died on the cross, I don't believe those animal sacrifices would have done any good, because they were worthless without the cross. Remember that when the Priests would go into the holy of holies, they had to go through a very strict ritual, and if they failed in one small point, they would have died when they entered the presence of God. Without the blood covering, God would have seen their sins. It wasn't just symbolic, but it was worthless without Jesus.

I think you make good points....

[Guest]

I was thinking about this the other day, and I felt I had to ask my Worthy Family for some input.

Jesus said that nobody can be saved except through Him (John 14:6), and the Bible says salvation is found in nobody else (Acts 4:12)

Sooo...

If people were saved before Jesus came by looking forward in faith to the coming Messiah, (as we are saved by looking back to the Messiah Jesus in faith) then why was the sacrificial system needed?

Why didn't people simply put their faith in the coming Messiah as first mentioned in Genesis 3:15, and thus be saved apart from the system of animal sacrifice?

Afterall, the Bible itself says it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

What gives?

To

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

Know Him

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

Is To Love Him

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. Deuteronomy 6:4-5

And As For His Holy Blood

And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. Hebrews 9:22

Priceless

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Ephesians 1:7

And Whatever Could This Mean?

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 1 Peter 3:18-19

And This?

The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Revelation 4:10-11

Hum.....

[enoob57]

I believe the deepest portion of understanding the OT is that it is a full

communication to His Bride (Church) and the Bride Groom (Israel). 1Cor 10:1-13

When you sit down in your heart with the concept we are actuated by living words

of historical presence of some very great and beloved people! Then the NT and

God Himself comes and gives the perfect example.... as I honor God by the love

of it's content and faithful diligence of the study- He honors me with the living

value set of Who He 'IS'... hence personal acquaintance through Word and Spirit

I shall know Him (Christ) and He me... Love, Steven

[Guest]

Maybe someone else will have a better theological discourse answer to give, but I am content with understanding this in a simple way.

Sin is costly. But because of the strength of our sin nature, we don't grasp how costly it is - rather, how costly our own sin is (it's easy to pick apart others' sin, but facing one's own sin is tough).

But imagine if you had to slaughter an animal you raised to pay the price for your violation of the Torah (your sin).

Something to consider, the people of the Scriptures lived under the Eastern rather than the Western mindset. The Western mindset is about logic and reason. Eastern is about doing. The concept of visuals rather than an essay to make a point is more effective in their thinking. Thus, having to "act out" the penalty, the cost, and the method for atonement and redemption would be important and had meaning to them.

Now try to explain the sacrifice of Jesus without the grounding of the sacrificial system.

Good point about the eastern way of thinking, Neb. I was thinking along the same lines, but you put it into words better than the description I had come up with.

Just wanted to add an encouragement to anyone who hasn't read through the OT in a while, or perhaps has never read it. The NT makes much more sense after reading the OT.

[gdemoss]

Afterall, the Bible itself says it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

What gives?

Excellent observation and question. Most wont accept the truth of the matter though.

Hbr 10:4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Take away in this sentence means to remove completely. It is contrasted with that which is said of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The word 'For' is what is most telling about the verse. It explains that the verse is giving a reason for that which was said previously.

Hbr 10:3 But in those [sacrifices there is] a remembrance again [made] of sins every year.

The sacrifices continued to be made because the people continued to sin. Killing and eating an animal never moved a person to quit doing what they were doing.

Hbr 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure [therein]; which are offered by the law;

God would rather the sacrifices did not have to be made but that people would do the will of God instead.

Hbr 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Jesus coming in to take away the first was to establish the second covenant. The establishment was taking away the need for animal sacrifices for the individual because they would, by following Jesus Christ, now be doing the will of God instead of continually repeating the same sin over and over again. We get to crucify Jesus Christ unto ourselves but once.

Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

God declared his righteousness through the incarnation of Jesus Christ and poured out his Spirit upon all flesh that they might have the power to walk as he walked, taking away any excuse on the behalf of the believer.

Rom 3:25-26 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, [i say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

God even repeated himself so as to make his point. Jesus Christ is the righteousness of God manifest in the flesh that we are to follow as a standard of righteousness.

1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

The writer of Hebrews is establishing the truth of the difference between the two covenants that God made with his people. When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus, he made no bones about it but expected that Nicodemus should have already known that one must be born again. If one honestly asks their self why Jesus expected Nicodemus to understand what it meant to be born again then considers the absolute truth about what it means to be born again (born of God), they can find the key as to why the Old Testament sacrificial offerings were necessary for the purifying of the flesh.

Hbr 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

The first speaks about the purification of the flesh through the atonement received.

Hbr 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The second speaks to the purifying of the conscience by turning one to truly serve the living God instead of doing some dead work to make a payment for something your just going to end up continuing to do anyway. When one truly understands the self sacrificial love that Jesus has for them, they cannot help but cry out to God to conform them to the image of Christ that they might be righteous as he through the Spirit of holiness indwelling them and empowering them to walk as he walked.

1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

So why the law with its sacrifices?

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

So who then are the righteous? Who are the unrighteous? Was everyone kept 'under the law' until Christ's incarnation? No. But this is not something that is simple and straight forward. It must be understood by asking questions like if the law said a king should not multiply wives unto himself and David did then why did God declare that David had done no wrong except in the matter of Uriah? Or if it was only lawful for the priests to eat the show bread, why did Jesus say David did no wrong? These are obvious infractions of the law but the declaration is that he was innocent in these matters.

David understood what it meant to be righteous before God. David understood what it meant to be born again.

The one who thinks that they can continue on in sin without fear of consequence because Jesus' blood has bought and paid for every sin ever committed has another thing coming when they reach the judgment seat of Christ. They will be hoping that all their 'bad' works will be burnt up in some 'works bonfire' and that they will be saved yet as by fire but instead they will be told 'depart from me you who work iniquity'. There is a reason they call it the mystery of iniquity which began in the first century and has developed into the perilous times we now live in where sin runs rampant though out the church.

Hbr 10:26 ¶ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

What is the truth? The truth is that Jesus Christ is the righteousness of God manifest in the flesh and that we ought be living our lives as those first Christians of the early church found in Acts 2 and 4 did after they converted to truly following Christ. To continue willfully in sin is to continue to live for self rather than God.

Zec 7:8-14 ¶ And the word of the LORD came unto Zechariah, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother: And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart. But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear. Yea, they made their hearts [as] an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts. Therefore it is come to pass, [that] as he cried, and they would not hear; so they cried, and I would not hear, saith the LORD of hosts: But I scattered them with a whirlwind among all the nations whom they knew not. Thus the land was desolate after them, that no man passed through nor returned: for they laid the pleasant land desolate.

Behold, the same is the fate of the current disobedient and gainsaying church that dots the landscape today because they refuse to turn away from sin and serve God though they have been given both the atonement and the Spirit of Christ. Many instead walk in the Spirit of Antichrist saying 'nobody can be like Christ' but the scripture says different.

1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

John claimed to be like Jesus and declared that that was the very reason one could have boldness in the day of judgment.

Animal sacrifice was used to foreshadow that which was to come. That which is natural is followed by that which is spiritual. Animal sacrifices were natural means of purifying the flesh but Christs sacrifice was the spiritual means of purifying the heart and leaving the individual with a clean conscience void of offense before God.

Peace in Christ to all who love, honor and obey him in sincerity.

[Massorite]

The opportunity to be saved and live forever was not extended to those who lived in old testament time. They knew that Christ was coming and they knew that Christ was going to save the nations bny they had know idea of the significant role and sacrifice that Christ would play in the future of man kind. For them it was believe in God all of your life and death would be the end of it. Only a few knew better and David was one of them. We need to understand that the whoooole thing from the few seconds it took Adam to doubt and rebel against the command that God gave to him until the end of the book of Revelation is a process that God has put upon man to fix what Adam destroyed. Which was the plan of God for man kind in the beginning. When we are raised from the grave, those who lived before Jesus will not be raised. They will stay in the grave until the Great White Throne Judgment, at which point they to will be judged. The sacrifices were a precursor for the sacrifice of Christ but Christ did not come until men were ready to accept and understand what was expected to become a true member of the body of Christ.

[His_disciple3]

Lev_17:11

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Heb_9:14

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 13:12

Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

Heb_9:22

And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.