Was Jesus God?

[Guest ninhao]

Now kindly address the scriptures that state we should not tempt God because you have stated that God cannot be tempted and therefore

Jesus was not God as half the populace thinks of Him, but rather something else that Mike has a grasp on...yet Jesus Himself states to the devil

it is written "DON'T TEMPT GOD"...as in God in heaven...ESPECIALLY as you do not believe Jesus was exactly God on earth,

how do you explain Him telling the devil not to tempt GOD who was/is in heaven?

Hello Sevenseas,

Mat 4:5-7 KJV Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, (6) And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. (7) Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

I am not understanding your reasoning here. Are you suggesting Jesus was telling satan he shouldn't tempt Him( Jesus) because He is God? It is my understanding that Jesus is telling satan that He ( Jesus) wouldn't test God by jumping off the temple expecting to be saved.

Can you explain?

[Sevenseas]

Now kindly address the scriptures that state we should not tempt God because you have stated that God cannot be tempted and therefore

Jesus was not God as half the populace thinks of Him, but rather something else that Mike has a grasp on...yet Jesus Himself states to the devil

it is written "DON'T TEMPT GOD"...as in God in heaven...ESPECIALLY as you do not believe Jesus was exactly God on earth,

how do you explain Him telling the devil not to tempt GOD who was/is in heaven?

Hello Sevenseas,

Mat 4:5-7 KJV Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, (6) And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. (7) Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

I am not understanding your reasoning here. Are you suggesting Jesus was telling satan he shouldn't tempt Him( Jesus) because He is God? It is my understanding that Jesus is telling satan that He ( Jesus) wouldn't test God by jumping off the temple expecting to be saved.

Can you explain?

1. No I am not suggesting Jesus was telling the devil that He is God

2. You have the same understanding that I do. Jesus was telling the devil we are not to tempt God.. please see my post 29 for further clarification

I am saying the opposite of what Mike states. As per the verse from Exodus (post 29 and again in my response to Mike)...When the Word states that God cannot be tempted, it does not mean no one tries to tempt Him...because people do all the time...hence the admonition NOT to tempt Him (to act)

And hence Jesus saying to the devil it is written you shall not tempt God...in other words entice Him to react (as though He were human or in

a sinful manner)

You see, Mike is saying that God cannot be tempted and if Jesus was tempted by satan then He could not have been as God as we think He was/is. However, Jesus is saying He will not tempt God...while Mike is saying that Jesus cannot be fully God if the devil tempted Him...YET

Jesus does not say that...His defence is that He (Jesus) will not tempt God...the opposite of what Mike seems to believe...yet, he will

not address this ... or not so far anyway

It's more complicated than that, but that is a brief synopsis...hope that is clearer?

I also posted the understanding of the word 'tempted' in my post 29 just for further understanding

[allofgrace]

ninhao

You are right on that, all Jesus was telling the Devil was that His jumping off would be tempting God by doing something so foolish just to prove He was the Son of God. It's like those that say no weapon formed against me will prosper and someone is aiming a shotgun at them and says to them they will shoot them if they move and the person steps toward the person anyway, what will be the result and why, the person was putting God to the test by being foolish. The quote Jesus used is from Ps 91:11-12 and it says nothing about jumping off the top of a Temple. One said he would use this saying if confronted with a bomb and I thought, he might, but only once. One must be careful how they make a doctrine out of verse and then put God to the test.

Ps 91:11-12 For He shall give His angels charge over you, To keep you in all your ways. 12 In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.

1 Cor 10:9-11 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Ps 78: 17-22 But they sinned even more against Him By rebelling against the Most High in the wilderness. 18 And they tested God in their heart By asking for the food of their fancy 19 Yes, they spoke against God: They said, “Can God prepare a table in the wilderness? 20 Behold, He struck the rock, So that the waters gushed out, And the streams overflowed. Can He give bread also? Can He provide meat for His people?” 21 Therefore the Lord heard this and was furious; So a fire was kindled against Jacob, And anger also came up against Israel, 22 Because they did not believe in God, And did not trust in His salvation.

Ex 17:1-7 Then all the congregation of the children of Israel set out on their journey from the Wilderness of Sin, according to the commandment of the Lord, and camped in Rephidim; but there was no water for the people to drink. 2 Therefore the people contended with Moses, and said, “Give us water, that we may drink.” So Moses said to them, “Why do you contend with me? Why do you tempt the Lord?” 3 And the people thirsted there for water, and the people complained against Moses, and said, “Why is it you have brought us up out of Egypt, to kill us and our children and our livestock with thirst?” 4 So Moses cried out to the Lord, saying, “What shall I do with this people? They are almost ready to stone me!” 5 And the Lord said to Moses, “Go on before the people, and take with you some of the elders of Israel. Also take in your hand your rod with which you struck the river, and go.

6 Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock in Horeb; and you shall strike the rock, and water will come out of it, that the people may drink.”

And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel. 7 So he called the name of the place Massah and Meribah, because of the contention of the children of Israel, and because they tempted the Lord, saying, “Is the Lord among us or not?”

Makes one think how terrible it is to doubt God's promises and word. It puts Him to the test by saying He want fulfill His word. But we also have to be careful not to test Him by trying to apply His word to our whims.

Edited February 1, 2013 by allofgrace

[Guest ninhao]

You see, Mike is saying that God cannot be tempted and if Jesus was tempted by satan then He could not have been as God as we think He was/is. However, Jesus is saying He will not tempt God...while Mike is saying that Jesus cannot be fully God if the devil tempted Him...YET

Jesus does not say that...His defence is that He (Jesus) will not tempt God...the opposite of what Mike seems to believe...yet, he will

not address this ... or not so far anyway

It's more complicated than that, but that is a brief synopsis...hope that is clearer?

I also posted the understanding of the word 'tempted' in my post 29 just for further understanding

Thanks for explaining.

I think there is a clear difference in the tempting satan applied to Jesus ( which was enticement to do something evil ) and the testing Jesus said He would not apply to God ( which was to test God's ability to save ). Both are wrong but different.

I don't think this passage shows Jesus was impervious to temptation in the same manner as God. Tempting and testing are different imo. The passage also does not imply God can be tempted (enticed) to do evil.

[Sevenseas]

ninhao:

You should know that the words tempt and test are being used interchangeably and the KJ Bible uses the word tempt for both

what Jesus experienced and in reference to God...in other words, scripture does NOT make the distinction that you are making

The bottom line is do we want to form opinions and see things that scripture does not say or do we want to actually know what

the Bible says and what it means?

Jesus is plainly represented as God...we have someone here trying to say that Jesus was not really God but some kind of human

hybrid....which is basically questionning Who Jesus was while on earth.

Comparing the texts in both the Old and New Testaments, it becomes clear that the Bible does indeed declare

that Jesus is God, is equal to God and wholly God.

The Hebrew word in Deut is nissitem meaning to test or to try...the KJ translates that tempt

The Greek word in Luke in v 2...referring to Jesus being tempted, is peirazomenos..meaning being tempted, to make proof of, to attempt (to create

a reaction), TEST and TEMPT

When Jesus says to the devil that we should not tempt God he is using the word tempt as translated in the KJ and test in other translations

The problem seems to be that some people do not understand that either word can used to mean the same thing.

James 1: 13-15 states that God cannot be tempted and Himself tempts no one; and so someone starts to think that Jesus must have been less than wholly God because

He was tempted of the devil. However, that is not the case because we have to take the whole of what scripture states concerning the nature

of God and Jesus and not just draw a conclusion from our own understanding and then think we have had an 'aha' moment

If we look further, however in Hebrews (11:17) we read that God DID in fact tempt or try Abraham and that the Israelites tempted, or tried God (I Cor 10:9)

Taking into consideration then, these two aspects which at first appear to contradict each other, we find, upon closer study, that there is a difference between

a trial or test being applied from the outside.......as was the case with the devil tempting Jesus and the Israelites tempting God and God testing Abraham,

and a temptation originating from the inside

What scripture is actually telling us then, is that God Himself is not tempted (no lust, no inclination to murder or molest etc) and He does not tempt people

that way. God DOES however apply a test from without or a temptation...in the case of Abraham it would have been a temptation to deny his faith in God....

in Jesus case it would have been a temptation to test God.

Humans are tempted from within by their own lusts and desires (scripture) God is not tempted in that way and neither was Jesus.

James refers to temptation arising from within.....God does not suffer such things. Although God does not create the temptation, He does often allow

us to endure it that our faith might be tested, tried and come out pure as silver (scripture)

[gdemoss]

Jesus fasted 40 days. Jesus was hungry. He had a desire to eat something. The devil reminded him that if he was the Son of God he could command stones that they become bread. According to Mike, it seems Jesus thought "you know what, that sounds like an awesome idea. But wait a second, my father says that ain't right." Then Jesus vasselated back and forth over it a while fantasizing about having his hot bread made from rocks by the power of his own words. And after a lengthy inner turmoil over the matter decided that man was simply not to live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

Not even close, Mike.

Jesus' mind was pure and not only did not think evil thoughts, but could not think evil thoughts because he did not have the same evil in him as we do. Your Jesus, the one who desires something evil, is not the Jesus of the bible but 'another Jesus' and should be avoided.

As we purify our hearts and become like him, we stop considering evil an option ourselves. What used to seem plausible is not unthinkable. Mike, your Jesus considers evil as a possible option and your god doesn't know everything. This is a pretty scary thought.

[Sevenseas]

Exactly Gary ... what you wrote demonstrates the scriptural principal that God cannot be tempted from within as we are.

The same holds true for Jesus.

And yes, as we grow in Christ and purify our hearts, what may have once tempted us no longer holds sway...but of course always be

on guard, eh?!

Just agreeing with you regarding this very important understanding of Jesus being equal with God

[Guest ninhao]

ninhao:

You should know that the words tempt and test are being used interchangeably and the KJ Bible uses the word tempt for both

what Jesus experienced and in reference to God...in other words, scripture does NOT make the distinction that you are making

After examination I find there can be different meanings applied to the words test and tempt in scripture. I don't agree that because the words are not used interchangeably in the KJV that this proves they are always singular in meaning. I do not find the KJV infallible in translation.

The bottom line is do we want to form opinions and see things that scripture does not say or do we want to actually know what

the Bible says and what it means?

I think this point is valid for both of us, of course .

Jesus is plainly represented as God...we have someone here trying to say that Jesus was not really God but some kind of human

hybrid....which is basically questionning Who Jesus was while on earth.

Ok. Jesus coming in the likeness of man was not belittling to his divinity.

Php 2:6-8 KJV Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: (8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Comparing the texts in both the Old and New Testaments, it becomes clear that the Bible does indeed declare

that Jesus is God, is equal to God and wholly God.

I agree. The bible also tells us that God sent His Son Jesus in the form of a man ( the second Adam ) and indicates this also proved man could resist satan whereas the first Adam failed.

The Hebrew word in Deut is nissitem meaning to test or to try...the KJ translates that tempt

The Greek word in Luke in v 2...referring to Jesus being tempted, is peirazomenos..meaning being tempted, to make proof of, to attempt (to create

a reaction), TEST and TEMPT

Yes i agree. My lexicon has the word tempted Strongs #3985 as being Peirazo.

Definition

• to try whether a thing can be done
  
  • to attempt, endeavour
    
  • to try, make trial of, test: for the purpose of ascertaining his quantity, or what he thinks, or how he will behave himself
    
  • in a good sense
    
  • in a bad sense, to test one maliciously, craftily to put to the proof his feelings or judgments
    
  • to try or test one's faith, virtue, character, by enticement to sin
    
    1. to solicit to sin, to tempt 1c
       
    [*]of the temptations of the devil

    [*]after the OT usage

    [*]of God: to inflict evils upon one in order to prove his character and the steadfastness of his faith

    [*]men are said to tempt God by exhibitions of distrust, as though they wished to try whether he is not justly distrusted

    [*]by impious or wicked conduct to test God's justice and patience, and to challenge him, as it were to give proof of his perfections.

  I can see several ways the word can be applied.

  When Jesus says to the devil that we should not tempt God he is using the word tempt as translated in the KJ and test in other translations

  The word used in Luke 4:12 is Strongs #G1598.

  Ekpeirazo

  Definition

  [*]to prove, test, thoroughly

  [*]to put to proof God's character and power

  I see there can be a distinction between the tempting/testing satan applied to Jesus and the tempting/testing Jesus would not apply to God.

  The problem seems to be that some people do not understand that either word can used to mean the same thing.

  James 1: 13-15 states that God cannot be tempted and Himself tempts no one; and so someone starts to think that Jesus must have been less than wholly God because

  He was tempted of the devil. However, that is not the case because we have to take the whole of what scripture states concerning the nature

  of God and Jesus and not just draw a conclusion from our own understanding and then think we have had an 'aha' moment

  I agree 'aha' moments are subjective. Also, sometimes they may be correct.

  If we look further, however in Hebrews (11:17) we read that God DID in fact tempt or try Abraham and that the Israelites tempted, or tried God (I Cor 10:9)

  Taking into consideration then, these two aspects which at first appear to contradict each other, we find, upon closer study, that there is a difference between

  a trial or test being applied from the outside.......as was the case with the devil tempting Jesus and the Israelites tempting God and God testing Abraham,

  and a temptation originating from the inside

  Once again there can be different meanings to the words tempt/test.

  What scripture is actually telling us then, is that God Himself is not tempted (no lust, no inclination to murder or molest etc) and He does not tempt people

  that way. God DOES however apply a test from without or a temptation...in the case of Abraham it would have been a temptation to deny his faith in God....

  in Jesus case it would have been a temptation to test God.

  Yes I agree, however this does not show that Jesus was impervious to temptation as is God.

  Humans are tempted from within by their own lusts and desires (scripture) God is not tempted in that way and neither was Jesus.

  James refers to temptation arising from within.....God does not suffer such things. Although God does not create the temptation, He does often allow

  us to endure it that our faith might be tested, tried and come out pure as silver (scripture)

  You have presented your argument well thank you. I will consider it further but at this point I find it strange that God would offer a test to show satan can be resisted when it was impossible to fail. That is, if the second Adam could not be tempted in the same manner as the first Adam then the propitiatory equivalencies have not been met. This is my opinion.

  Also, to be clear believing Jesus was able to fall doesn't in any way make Him any less God. In fact I think it show's God's love for man and His perfect justice more clearly.

  Heb 2:17-18 KJV Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. (18) For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

[gdemoss]

Exactly Gary ... what you wrote demonstrates the scriptural principal that God cannot be tempted from within as we are.

The same holds true for Jesus.

And yes, as we grow in Christ and purify our hearts, what may have once tempted us no longer holds sway...but of course always be

on guard, eh?!

Just agreeing with you regarding this very important understanding of Jesus being equal with God

Absolutely, and I try not to forget where I come from. I once thought like Mike does. God, through the Holy Spirit, had to guide me into the truth. What shall we say then? The man of God must not strive but be gentle with all men, apt to teach, patient, meekly instructing those who set themselves in opposition. In other words, be kind to one another.

[BlessedByTheBest]

Christ was human and Christ was divine . . . . The evidence of each is abundant, and the necessity for both is obvious. Had He not been man, He could not have sympathized with us; had He not been God, He could not have saved us.' - W. Graham Scroggie

Edited February 2, 2013 by BlessedByTheBest