Salvation

[MorningGlory]

Please, can y'all NOT quote a dozen posts just to answer one point? It makes it terribly hard to wade through the thread, especially when one is time challenged.

[JohnD]

If one truly turns away... they were never saved to begin with.

1 John 2:19 (KJV)

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

[Elhanan]

I will oblige you with a simple refutation. Yes, we are saved from the moment we "believe" but you need to examine the use of the Greek tenses more closely in the couple of Johannine passages you cited. In both Jn 3:16 and 5:24 the word rendered "believe" should instead be "believing" as the Greek is written in the present, continuous sense. Therefore, belief does not mean just a one time moment of "belief" in the past regarding salvation but a believing - continued, present and ongoing belief regarding one's salvation. We have salvation as long as we are continuing to believe. Hence if we are no longer believing = no longer any salvation.

Nice of you to Oblige me with absolutely no scripture brother E. The funny thing is, I do agree that the meaning is a constant belief. That is what believers do. Scripture is clear about those who so called had faith, and then lost it at some time or another. Our Lord said they had no root, they sprang up instantly and endured for a while, but the faith they had was without foundation and they fell away. The Apostle John says they left us because they were not of us. You and others insist on making them out to have been truly saved at one point, then to have fell away. No such thing, a person can have A belief and still not have saving faith. Many people have placed their trust in their parents being Godly, so they feel like they were grandfathered in to Christ. No admission of guilt, no recognizing they were lost, simply the fact that their parents were saved, they feel like they were saved too. Some people who claim Christianity put there faith in joining the Church. This to them makes them a Christian. Some put their faith in their own performance, as long as they don't do this, or don't do that, they feel safe, and think they are saved. None of these things are biblical saving faith or real faith. That stuff will last for a while but in the end it will come crashing down. Real faith comes by the word of God, specifically the Gospel. Presenting Christ to the sinner as his perfect substitute, and the sinner receiving this truth, casting himself on the mercy of God. It is that act of faith that Our Lord said will "Justify" the believing sinner before God. That is living, saving faith, in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. This genuine faith will produce works, and it will endure until the end. So, I do agree with your interpretation of "Believe" in the scriptures I posted, but that does not in anyway discredit eternal security or OSAS. Those that fall away never had it to begin with, they were tares, dogs, and pigs. They must receive the gift of life and become wheat, sheep, and saints through the precious blood of Christ.

You claim I obliged you with no scripture and you are correct because I used the same scriptures you provided to counter your argument. No need to provide other scriptures when the ones you provided simply suffice to make my point. At least you agree that belief should be rendered believing rather than belief. Your standard default argument is always that a believer cannot fall away because they were never truly saved to begin with. I agree with you that Scripture depicts those that were never of the faith to begin with so they never possessed eternal life. However, you misinterpret those scriptures that also depict those that were truly saved but later forfeit or lose their salvation. For example you make this claim: " Our Lord said they had no root, they sprang up instantly and endured for a while, but the faith they had was without foundation and they fell away." Lets compare your interpretation with Jesus' interpretation in Rom 8:13. "Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away." I'm assume you're claiming that these are people who never had genuine saving to begin with. Yet Jesus states that they BELIEVE. When time of testing comes, these believers FALL AWAY. Edited March 26, 2013 by Elhanan

[OneLight]

You did not address one word Jesus said, but tried to sift the conversation to another part of scripture. Let me be as plain as possible. What do you think about what Jesus said to the church of Sardis pertaining to being blotted out of the Book of Life? Here is the scripture once again.

Revelation 3:5

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Our Lord made a very clear statement, and one that can easily be understood when comparing scripture. First, "he who overcomes". Every single one of God's born one's overcomes the world, this is a bible fact.

1Jn 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

1Jn 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

1Jn 4:4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

While you are doing your best to prove a point that one can be blotted out, you miss the bigger picture in that this is Christ reiterating his precious promises of never blotting out the name of the one who overcomes. All saints of God over come and our garments are made white by his precious blood. The thought is not the threat of being blotted out, but that the over comer will not be blotted out.

Do you think anyone not born of God would overcome? I didn't think so, so to make an argument based on this is not convincing. I am not trying to prove anything, but to open your eyes to what He is saying. If you really take the time to look at the letters in Revelation, Jesus does talk about those who overcome. Jesus was talking to those who are in Him, giving them a a warning. You can ignore the truth if you want, that is your choice, but there is no getting around it in the end.

Hi Onelight,

Good post and it is not that I don’t see your point about the letters in Revelation, but He was speaking to the whole church, not only to those that were born again. I would doubt that the whole church was born again.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

19 ¶ Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.

22 ¶ Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will

give

them

repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

I just want to give God the glory for my salvation. I don’t want to glorify myself.

Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Good talking with you again…

Take a closer look at the verses you quoted. If I were to follow what you are saying as truth, then I could earn my salvation by the works I do. This is not scriptural. Since one cannot work their way to salvation, they are already saved who have to ensure that what they do is of Him. Look at the example that was given about Hymenaeus and Philetus. They were saved, but allowed themselves to be led astray by false doctrine. They because a vessel of dishonor. So, yes, is every church there will be vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor, depending on what truths they hold. What you bring does not show that those Christ spoke to in Revelation 3:5 were unbelievers, but believers led astray.

First off the Scriptures are true, it isn’t my fault that you misinterpreting them.

Obviously you cannot work your way to heaven. But there is Someone you can go to to purge yourself and there is Someone who can give repentance to you so you can have the power of God in your life.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

But how is it you don’t consider the other part, do you work to stay saved?

So….

Anyway I don’t know how you guys have so much time on your hands, but I don’t. talk to you later.

Perhaps you should take the time to show where I misinterpret scripture. If you don't have the time to explain what you accuse me of doing, then don't accuse me.

Then you quote Romans 1:16. What does that have to do with believers who do turn away from faith??

I quoted Scripture and this is what you said.

“Take a closer look at the verses you quoted. If I were to follow what you are saying as truth, then I could earn my salvation by the works I do.”

The Scriptures are the Truth.

Seems like you were questioning the validity of these Scriptures.

If I misunderstood what you said then what were you saying?

Follow the conversation. We were discussing what Jesus said in Revelation 3:5, if someone could walk away from their faith in Christ. Then you posted a passage from 2 Timothy 2, which to me was trying to show that there are both saved and unsaved in the church, some for honor and some for dishonor. Though scripture is true, your understanding of the scripture seems a bit off since Paul was using two people who had been following Christ as an example. Paul is showing that through false understanding people can wander down the wrong path, hence, being like a lost sheep. Nobody was even discussing the initial point of salvation.

This verse shows by whose power we are saved. Not by work like you said I was saying.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

But I guess the following verse would take care of any doubts that true believers cannot lose their salvation.

1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Yet, you never explain what the meaning is in Revelation 3:5, but, like so many others, point to other scripture that do not even relate to the verse. Can you address the verse itself?

Btw , I never said I didn’t have time later or for something important.

Classic…

Yet, you still do not point to where I have erred in anything, but continue down your own train of thought. If it is important, they why not show me where my error is?

Yes, I agree, your reply is classic in that it does not respond to the post you quoted, but sidesteps it.

[OneLight]

If one truly turns away... they were never saved to begin with.

1 John 2:19 (KJV)

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

I have seen this verse posted for the same manner it is being posted by you, trying to show that believers cannot ever turn from Christ. This does not support your theory. This verse tells us that they were never saved, which you agree with. How does that prove that those who believe in Christ cannot turn away from Him?

[saved34]

If one truly turns away... they were never saved to begin with.

1 John 2:19 (KJV)

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

I have seen this verse posted for the same manner it is being posted by you, trying to show that believers cannot ever turn from Christ. This does not support your theory. This verse tells us that they were never saved, which you agree with. How does that prove that those who believe in Christ cannot turn away from Him?

Seriously Onelight, the way you are debating is a bit disingenuous. The man shows scripture that clearly says"those who professed and left were not like us or of us. Scripture clearly says everyone born of God overcome the world. Which clearly means if a person is not born again he will not and cannot overcome. He may claim to have faith, but it means nothing if it does not have works, it is not real faith but dead. You still insist on this imaginary scenario where one can be genuinely born again (because that is what faith in Christ brings about) and still one day be lost. You brush off clear scripture and then claim we have to show where a christian will never turn. It's like you are trying your best to hold to this straw man theology and refuse to hear direct scripture. God seals us with the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation. For a genuine believer to turn back he would have to push through the reconciliation of Christ (the change of heart and mind that comes about from receiving Christ's atoning work),

God would have to Abort the new nature he has placed in the believer, he would have to unseal the believer, he would have to remove him from his right hand seated with Christ right now. The believer would have to somehow remove the eternal life given to him by Christ and step back into death. Do you brothers understand what takes place at salvation? I'm not trying to be funny, or trying to be mean, but what does it mean to be born again to you guys. At this point I know you will not answer this question Onelight, but others, please answer. Do you guys not understand the supernatural power and process in God saving a sinner?

[saved34]

I will oblige you with a simple refutation. Yes, we are saved from the moment we "believe" but you need to examine the use of the Greek tenses more closely in the couple of Johannine passages you cited. In both Jn 3:16 and 5:24 the word rendered "believe" should instead be "believing" as the Greek is written in the present, continuous sense. Therefore, belief does not mean just a one time moment of "belief" in the past regarding salvation but a believing - continued, present and ongoing belief regarding one's salvation. We have salvation as long as we are continuing to believe. Hence if we are no longer believing = no longer any salvation.

Nice of you to Oblige me with absolutely no scripture brother E. The funny thing is, I do agree that the meaning is a constant belief. That is what believers do. Scripture is clear about those who so called had faith, and then lost it at some time or another. Our Lord said they had no root, they sprang up instantly and endured for a while, but the faith they had was without foundation and they fell away. The Apostle John says they left us because they were not of us. You and others insist on making them out to have been truly saved at one point, then to have fell away. No such thing, a person can have A belief and still not have saving faith. Many people have placed their trust in their parents being Godly, so they feel like they were grandfathered in to Christ. No admission of guilt, no recognizing they were lost, simply the fact that their parents were saved, they feel like they were saved too. Some people who claim Christianity put there faith in joining the Church. This to them makes them a Christian. Some put their faith in their own performance, as long as they don't do this, or don't do that, they feel safe, and think they are saved. None of these things are biblical saving faith or real faith. That stuff will last for a while but in the end it will come crashing down. Real faith comes by the word of God, specifically the Gospel. Presenting Christ to the sinner as his perfect substitute, and the sinner receiving this truth, casting himself on the mercy of God. It is that act of faith that Our Lord said will "Justify" the believing sinner before God. That is living, saving faith, in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. This genuine faith will produce works, and it will endure until the end. So, I do agree with your interpretation of "Believe" in the scriptures I posted, but that does not in anyway discredit eternal security or OSAS. Those that fall away never had it to begin with, they were tares, dogs, and pigs. They must receive the gift of life and become wheat, sheep, and saints through the precious blood of Christ.

You claim I obliged you with no scripture and you are correct because I used the same scriptures you provided to counter your argument. No need to provide other scriptures when the ones you provided simply suffice to make my point. At least you agree that belief should be rendered believing rather than belief. Your standard default argument is always that a believer cannot fall away because they were never truly saved to begin with. I agree with you that Scripture depicts those that were never of the faith to begin with so they never possessed eternal life. However, you misinterpret those scriptures that also depict those that were truly saved but later forfeit or lose their salvation. For example you make this claim: " Our Lord said they had no root, they sprang up instantly and endured for a while, but the faith they had was without foundation and they fell away." Lets compare your interpretation with Jesus' interpretation in Rom 8:13. "Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away." I'm assume you're claiming that these are people who never had genuine saving to begin with. Yet Jesus states that they BELIEVE. When time of testing comes, these believers FALL AWAY.

It's nice that you see it says they "believed" for a while, you miss the key point of what separates them from the genuine. He clearly said "they had not root". Of the genuine he says.

Mat 13:23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."

The group with no root immediately received the word with Joy, yet they did not understand it like this group. They believed but James says the devils believed and tremble. The root is obviously Christ

those men may have believed something, but not according to knowledge. Had they had genuine faith they would have brought forth fruit, instead they were scorched because they were imposters or spurious. You cannot make them out to be genuine because whoever is born of God will not be overcome. Genuine believers glory in tribulation and trials. It is apart of our growth. At the moment of hearing the Gospel in true faith a man is sealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Eph 1:14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

[Guest Butero]

Read what the Greek says. Jesus is speaking to believers. Believers are the only ones who have their name written in the Book of Life.

lol I can't read greek, and that is just your own private interpretation. You cannot believe that Christ was ONLY addressing believers unless you are willing to say that everyone in the local assembly is a saved man or woman. He was addressing REAL churches first and foremost.You cannot use those passages to try and "cancel" clear scripture.

He most definately was addressing real believers, and OneLight is correct in saying only true born again believers have their name written in the book of life. This is not debatable. He was addressing a Christian assembly,not unbelievers. Had be been addressing unbelievers, he would have been giving them the message of salvation. I don't need to know Greek to see that.

I guess if you assume at least one of these things then your interpretation can work,

One is that when you are born again then you are written in the book of life. The problem is that this was done from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The second assumption is that God has predestinated some to eternal death. The problem with that are these verses.

Genesis 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Psalms 81:15 The haters of the LORD should have submitted themselves unto him: but their time should have endured for ever.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

The third assumption is that everyone in the church is real believers.

2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Fourth assumption is that there is no distinction between being written in the book of life and being written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Psalms 69:21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

22 ¶ Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap.

23 Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.

24 Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.

25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.

26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.

27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.

28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Scribes and Pharisees and Roman soldiers crucified The Lord. At what time were they in the book of life?

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Side note- predestination is true but double predestination is not.

First of all, I believe what you call "double predestination" is true, therefore nothing you said works. The only thing I have reason to address is whether everyone in those churches had been saved? They didn't have to be. The messages were to people that had been saved. You can tell that by what was said. It wasn't a message of salvation, but repentance for someone who had fallen. They are being called to return to a previous state.

How so?

1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome <3528> them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh <3528> the world: and this is the victory that overcometh <3528> the world, even our faith.

1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh <3528> the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

I honestly don't know what those scriptures have to do with anything I said? I was saying that those who are truly the called of God will overcome, and those who are not called to be saved will die lost. You will wind up wherever you were pre-destined to wind up, and this will be reflected in your lifestyle. I have posted much about this all throughout this thread and others explaining exactly what I mean. That is why the first thing I said in my response to you was I do believe in what you call "double pre-destination," though I had not heard this term till recently.

Hi butero,

It was in response to this statement,

“The messages were to people that had been saved. You can tell that by what was said. It wasn't a message of salvation, but repentance for someone who had fallen. They are being called to return to a previous state.”

If we overcome then why then is the warning? It is pretty much a done deal isn’t it since God said it in His word?

1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome <3528> them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh <3528> the world: and this is the victory that overcometh <3528> the world, even our faith.

1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh <3528> the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Fair enough, but my response to you would be that this is speaking of those who were predestined to be saved. They will be overcomers. While I believe that God knows our eternal fate, and knew it before we were formed in the womb, he still has people give out warnings. Those who are predestined to heed the warnings will, and those who are predestined to stop up their ears will do so.

BTW, why the huge font? You can post however you wish, but I was just wondering? It is a big hard to follow because you have to scroll down so far just to read a single paragraph.

[Guest Butero]

Please, can y'all NOT quote a dozen posts just to answer one point? It makes it terribly hard to wade through the thread, especially when one is time challenged.

Sorry MG. I will try to keep that in mind. The only reason I do that is because of convenience. It is easier than having to erase all but one quote, but I can see how it would be hard to follow?

[Guest Butero]

If one truly turns away... they were never saved to begin with.

1 John 2:19 (KJV)

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Thank you for providing a scripture to back that up. I hear people make that claim a lot with no scriptural support. You are correct, because those predestined to be saved will remain, and those who are predestined lost will not remain. The main thing I am trying to get across is there is no such thing as unconditional eternal security. There is no way one can guarantee that no matter what they do, they know they will make it to heaven because they made a confession of faith. If you were to fall away in a couple of years, it doesn't matter if you were never saved, or saved and then lost, the result is the same.