Salvation

[OneLight]

I base my salvation on the works of the Lord. and you base your on what you have done, and you say I am on sand???

You will never find one post where I have given myself credit for salvation. Do a search on all my threads and show me just one. Because I know there are none, I can say you are misrepresenting my stance on salvation only for the purpose of defending yourself against what I bring.

Now to the root of the issue. When Jesus moves in you through with the Holy Spirit, pointing out something in your life that needs to be changed, what do you believe happens? Does the Holy Spirit point out an error and then corrects it, or does He wait for you to recognize your error and agree that you need to change before He changes you? What lesson is there to learn if He just fixes us without us realizing what was wrong? He wants us to grow in Him, and in order to grow, we must learn.

So ofter people say we have a relationship with God, but fail to see that a relationship requires working together, even if it is only to give approval or acceptance. There needs to be a communication between those in a relationship, or there is no relationship. When we accept Christ, did God force salvation upon us or did He present His Son to us and allow the Holy Spirit to work the truth in our lives as we allowed Him to do so? God does not say "Here is My Son and you are now saved whether you like it or not!" He presents His Son to the world so that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. The word believe is very important in realizing that we do have to believe before we are saved. This is the work He does in us, but not without our approval, otherwise, everyone that ever lived would be saved.

By recognizing that our relationship is just that, a bonding between God and us in a way that we are partners, we do not diminish what God does in our lives. In fact, it show more of His love to us by have such a relationship. Love does not force itself on anyone, but waits patiently for the right time to present itself again. I give God all the glory for everything He has done in my life. I could never do anything to save myself, nor to work within His ministry He called me to without Him. Yet, I also recognize that within my life, I have to repent of my sins, God does not repent for me. He made a way to Himself for me, a path that leads to Him, but I have to walk down this path in submission with His leading. While He walks with me, He does not walk for me.

You brought in scripture, but did you understand all of it?

1 Corinthians 3:8-15

Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

I underlined verse 9 from the NKJV, which is the same as what the KJV states " For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building." Notice that we are laborers together with God. God does not do our work for us, we have to do our own, which is to allow Him to work in and through us. That is a partnership, a relationship, a bond that He has created for us. We do not become robots, but willing servants to Him.

[saved34]

OSAS claims that no matter what you do after salvation, you still hold a punched ticket so you can live like the devil and still make it into heaven.

This is a blanket and decidedly false statement. You have a "hyper" version of nearly every belief in Christianity, but true OSAS does not say you can live like the devil and still make it into heaven. I think even the majority of OSAS on this board would agree wholeheartedly.

I read these two comments earlier, and wanted to ask you a follow up. You say that OSAS doesn't say you can live like the devil and make it into heaven? If that is true, what does "once saved always saved" mean? If you can't live like the devil after getting saved and make it into heaven, wouldn't that mean you can lose your salvation? Wouldn't it be like, "once saved, always saved, unless you choose to live like the devil after getting saved???

No it would mean you need to get saved. Along with true salvation comes a new heart, and a desire to do the will of God. The people you are speaking of is antinomians , and they are not Christians, so your argument is on the wrong basis to begin with.

Tit 1:16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

Again, you have perverted or hyper versions of every belief system in Christianity, but we all should know by now (both OSAS and those who deny it) that God has called us to Holiness.

[OneLight]

OSAS claims that no matter what you do after salvation, you still hold a punched ticket so you can live like the devil and still make it into heaven.

This is a blanket and decidedly false statement. You have a "hyper" version of nearly every belief in Christianity, but true OSAS does not say you can live like the devil and still make it into heaven. I think even the majority of OSAS on this board would agree wholeheartedly.

I read these two comments earlier, and wanted to ask you a follow up. You say that OSAS doesn't say you can live like the devil and make it into heaven? If that is true, what does "once saved always saved" mean? If you can't live like the devil after getting saved and make it into heaven, wouldn't that mean you can lose your salvation? Wouldn't it be like, "once saved, always saved, unless you choose to live like the devil after getting saved???

No it would mean you need to get saved. Along with true salvation comes a new heart, and a desire to do the will of God. The people you are speaking of is antinomians , and they are not Christians, so your argument is on the wrong basis to begin with.

Tit 1:16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

Again, you have perverted or hyper versions of every belief system in Christianity, but we all should know by now (both OSAS and those who deny it) that God has called us to Holiness.

I am curious of your opinion to what Jesus said to the body in the church in Sardis from your OSAS point of view. How is it possible, in your view, that someone who has their name written in the Book of Life to have it removed if, as you claim, they were never saved in the first place?

Revelation 3:5

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

[Guest Butero]

OSAS claims that no matter what you do after salvation, you still hold a punched ticket so you can live like the devil and still make it into heaven.

This is a blanket and decidedly false statement. You have a "hyper" version of nearly every belief in Christianity, but true OSAS does not say you can live like the devil and still make it into heaven. I think even the majority of OSAS on this board would agree wholeheartedly.

I read these two comments earlier, and wanted to ask you a follow up. You say that OSAS doesn't say you can live like the devil and make it into heaven? If that is true, what does "once saved always saved" mean? If you can't live like the devil after getting saved and make it into heaven, wouldn't that mean you can lose your salvation? Wouldn't it be like, "once saved, always saved, unless you choose to live like the devil after getting saved???

No it would mean you need to get saved. Along with true salvation comes a new heart, and a desire to do the will of God. The people you are speaking of is antinomians , and they are not Christians, so your argument is on the wrong basis to begin with.

Tit 1:16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

Again, you have perverted or hyper versions of every belief system in Christianity, but we all should know by now (both OSAS and those who deny it) that God has called us to Holiness.

I haven't done any such thing. I asked you a question. I was not making a point. I wanted to see if you could explain something to me about your beliefs?

I do have a follow up. Lets suppose you have a man get saved, and lives for Christ for 20 years. He is faithful to go to church. He is everything a good Christian should be. Then something happens in his life, and he loses his faith. Perhaps he has a death in his family? He can't understand how if God is real, this tragedy could have happened, so he quits serving God, and goes back into sin. He is a worse sinner than the way he was before he got saved initially. If this man dies while in this condition, will he go to heaven?

[saved34]

I guess this is the reason why there is so much controversy on the subject. There are many who do not believe as you do, and many who do. Through the history of those claim to be OSAS, they claim that they can sin all they want because God has covered all their sin, past, present and future, by the blood of Christ with no repentance or regeneration needed.

Again, as I told Butero, you are only speaking of hypers and not those who truly believe in Eternal security, OSAS or whatever one wants to call it. Any man or woman who desires to sin all they want is not saved, period. So to apply that to a true believer is a false argument to begin with. Christ has reconciled us to God, our hearts and minds are turned to God now, our desire is for God and his righteousness. I would like you to clarify what you mean by "regeneration"? Do you believe a saint has to be regenerated again after he or she sins? You mentioned sins of the past, present, and future. You think Christ's atonement was ONLY for the sins you committed before you were saved? I think you are confusing God's continual sanctifying of the believer, with Christ's Holy finished work in respects to sin. Scripture says he is the Propitiation for our sins, he made ONE purification for sin, then sat down on the right hand of the Father.

Heb 9:24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence.

Heb 9:25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own.

Heb 9:26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Those who believe in Eternal Security believe as you say, as long as one follow God, they are secure in Him.

This is a tricky statement. It is true, we do follow God, but to say "AS long as they follow God, they are secure", is a round about way of saying, as long as you perform, you live. You are only as secure as your works. Scripture puts it like this

Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.

If you follow God in order to ensure that you are secure or salvation is secure, then you are not receiving grace, you are in effect earning your keep, you are getting your just deserts so to speak. I hope no one misinterprets what I am trying to say here. Believers follow God, but salvation is not based on our following God, it is based on his mercy to us. Even when we were in our sins, he saved us the moment we trusted Christ. Your statement is not biblical as it concerns salvation.

]“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

This is very important to heed when you are trying to present these verses. Let me first start off by saying, I respect your knowledge on these boards Onlight. I consider you a dear brother in Christ, and have been blessed by man, many of your posts., but here you are making the age old mistake of taking obscure (in the sense that not all the Church agree on the interpretation) scripture, and attempting to use it to refute clear bible truth. The true Church (non cult or other sporadic groups) agree that the bible is clear that salvation is by God's grace (unmerited, unearned favor) through faith, and it is not of ourselves. This truth has been defended down through the centuries by Christ's church.

Your own private interpretation of Christ speaking to the historical, prophetical, and local churches in Revelation is off. First he is addressing entire local assemblies (the field) both saved and unsaved reside in this realm. He speaks of some who are neither cold nor hot, he will spit them out. We know this is not talking about a saint, we are "in Christ" by kinship, or bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh. We are one with him, not in his stomache to be spewn out. We know that there is only ONE BODY, not many. We are all united by faith to the Lord Jesus Christ. He is not addressing the one body, but the many local assemblies throughout history, and many bible scholars say he is speaking of the many stages of the Church through out the ages. In the local church, there are saved and unsaved, there are wheat and tares, there are sheep and goats. Christ is giving a final warning to all who reside in that realm, not telling those who have placed their trust in him that he is going to destroy them.

This alone tells me that one can decide to change their path and turn from Christ, even when they once followed Him.

A faith that fails, was not faith at all. A faith that does not work, is dead, and not faith at all. You and others continue to try and place true faith on antinomians, and it just will not work. Christ sheep will never perish, they will follow him, and they cannot be plucked out of Christ's hand, not the Father's. Those that turn back (and it does happen) were not genuine to begin with, as sayeth the scriptures.

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

They did not belong to us, they made a profession, they acted like us for a season, but in the end, they had no root, and fell away. You can try and make them out to have been genuine all you want, but scripture says otherwise.

Part 2 coming up

[saved34]

OSAS claims that no matter what you do after salvation, you still hold a punched ticket so you can live like the devil and still make it into heaven.

This is a blanket and decidedly false statement. You have a "hyper" version of nearly every belief in Christianity, but true OSAS does not say you can live like the devil and still make it into heaven. I think even the majority of OSAS on this board would agree wholeheartedly.

I read these two comments earlier, and wanted to ask you a follow up. You say that OSAS doesn't say you can live like the devil and make it into heaven? If that is true, what does "once saved always saved" mean? If you can't live like the devil after getting saved and make it into heaven, wouldn't that mean you can lose your salvation? Wouldn't it be like, "once saved, always saved, unless you choose to live like the devil after getting saved???

No it would mean you need to get saved. Along with true salvation comes a new heart, and a desire to do the will of God. The people you are speaking of is antinomians , and they are not Christians, so your argument is on the wrong basis to begin with.

Tit 1:16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

Again, you have perverted or hyper versions of every belief system in Christianity, but we all should know by now (both OSAS and those who deny it) that God has called us to Holiness.

I haven't done any such thing. I asked you a question. I was not making a point. I wanted to see if you could explain something to me about your beliefs?

I do have a follow up. Lets suppose you have a man get saved, and lives for Christ for 20 years. He is faithful to go to church. He is everything a good Christian should be. Then something happens in his life, and he loses his faith. Perhaps he has a death in his family? He can't understand how if God is real, this tragedy could have happened, so he quits serving God, and goes back into sin. He is a worse sinner than the way he was before he got saved initially. If this man dies while in this condition, will he go to heaven?

Heb 10:39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

He was never saved. If a man can claim to have known Christ, and as you say he so called "lived for Christ" for 20 years ("Lord, lord did we not do this and that"...) it means nothing. We believers glory in tribulation. Notice I said glory, not feel good about it, but instinctively because of the indwelling Holy Spirit, the Comforter, our calamities make us stronger and are apart of our growth. This person you speak of had a spurious faith, one with no root and when hard times came he dropped out. No human being can live the Christian life. Only Christ in us gives us the victory.

[Elhanan]

OSAS claims that no matter what you do after salvation, you still hold a punched ticket so you can live like the devil and still make it into heaven.

No it would mean you need to get saved. Along with true salvation comes a new heart, and a desire to do the will of God. The people you are speaking of is antinomians , and they are not Christians, so your argument is on the wrong basis to begin with.

Tit 1:16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

Again, you have perverted or hyper versions of every belief system in Christianity, but we all should know by now (both OSAS and those who deny it) that God has called us to Holiness.

Scripture does make reference to those who were never saved to begin with and thus false converts. However, the false notion that a genuinely saved believer can never fall away and be lost is directly contradicted by plain scripture hence: 1 Tim 3:6 "He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil." Some dismiss this verse questioning what the judgment of the devil is. Well, the devil ends up in the Lake of Fire. If that is not enough, how about 1 Tim 4:1 "Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons," By definition, a person can never depart from the faith unless he/she were of the faith to begin with. You can't depart from something that you were never a part of to begin with. So heed the plain words of Scripture please. Edited March 23, 2013 by Elhanan

[Guest Butero]

OSAS claims that no matter what you do after salvation, you still hold a punched ticket so you can live like the devil and still make it into heaven.

This is a blanket and decidedly false statement. You have a "hyper" version of nearly every belief in Christianity, but true OSAS does not say you can live like the devil and still make it into heaven. I think even the majority of OSAS on this board would agree wholeheartedly.

I read these two comments earlier, and wanted to ask you a follow up. You say that OSAS doesn't say you can live like the devil and make it into heaven? If that is true, what does "once saved always saved" mean? If you can't live like the devil after getting saved and make it into heaven, wouldn't that mean you can lose your salvation? Wouldn't it be like, "once saved, always saved, unless you choose to live like the devil after getting saved???

No it would mean you need to get saved. Along with true salvation comes a new heart, and a desire to do the will of God. The people you are speaking of is antinomians , and they are not Christians, so your argument is on the wrong basis to begin with.

Tit 1:16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

Again, you have perverted or hyper versions of every belief system in Christianity, but we all should know by now (both OSAS and those who deny it) that God has called us to Holiness.

I haven't done any such thing. I asked you a question. I was not making a point. I wanted to see if you could explain something to me about your beliefs?

I do have a follow up. Lets suppose you have a man get saved, and lives for Christ for 20 years. He is faithful to go to church. He is everything a good Christian should be. Then something happens in his life, and he loses his faith. Perhaps he has a death in his family? He can't understand how if God is real, this tragedy could have happened, so he quits serving God, and goes back into sin. He is a worse sinner than the way he was before he got saved initially. If this man dies while in this condition, will he go to heaven?

Heb 10:39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

He was never saved. If a man can claim to have known Christ, and as you say he so called "lived for Christ" for 20 years ("Lord, lord did we not do this and that"...) it means nothing. We believers glory in tribulation. Notice I said glory, not feel good about it, but instinctively because of the indwelling Holy Spirit, the Comforter, our calamities make us stronger and are apart of our growth. This person you speak of had a spurious faith, one with no root and when hard times came he dropped out. No human being can live the Christian life. Only Christ in us gives us the victory.

Thanks for your clarification. If this is the case, that means that if you were to fall away in a year or so, you were never saved, and you were only deceiving yourself into believing you were saved. There is no eternal security in that.

I really agree with you in one sense. The Bible does speak of predestination and election, so if you are really one that God has chosen to save, you will remain saved. We just don't know who those people are that God has chosen.

[saved34]

OSAS claims that no matter what you do after salvation, you still hold a punched ticket so you can live like the devil and still make it into heaven.

This is a blanket and decidedly false statement. You have a "hyper" version of nearly every belief in Christianity, but true OSAS does not say you can live like the devil and still make it into heaven. I think even the majority of OSAS on this board would agree wholeheartedly.

I read these two comments earlier, and wanted to ask you a follow up. You say that OSAS doesn't say you can live like the devil and make it into heaven? If that is true, what does "once saved always saved" mean? If you can't live like the devil after getting saved and make it into heaven, wouldn't that mean you can lose your salvation? Wouldn't it be like, "once saved, always saved, unless you choose to live like the devil after getting saved???

No it would mean you need to get saved. Along with true salvation comes a new heart, and a desire to do the will of God. The people you are speaking of is antinomians , and they are not Christians, so your argument is on the wrong basis to begin with.

Tit 1:16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

Again, you have perverted or hyper versions of every belief system in Christianity, but we all should know by now (both OSAS and those who deny it) that God has called us to Holiness.

I am curious of your opinion to what Jesus said to the body in the church in Sardis from your OSAS point of view. How is it possible, in your view, that someone who has their name written in the Book of Life to have it removed if, as you claim, they were never saved in the first place?

Revelation 3:5

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

First and foremost, there is only ONE BODY. Our Lord was addressing Churches, more specifically the angel of the many churches. Christ told Peter "Upon this rock (the he is the Christ, the Son of God) I will build my Church (singular). The true Church is made up of all who call upon the name of the Lord in every place. There are no tares in that Church, no goats, etc.

1Co 12:13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body--whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Now, concerning names being blotted out of the book of Life. there are varying opinions and differing interpretations. I only know that scripture must uphold scripture, and considering what Moses asked God back in Exodus, I would surmise that every man has his name in the book of life or place where his name should be. Those outside of Christ will see a blot where his name should have been. If not, what would be the point of having to blot out a name?

Exo 32:31 So Moses went back to the LORD and said, "Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold.

Exo 32:32 But now, please forgive their sin--but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written."

Exo 32:33 The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.

I could attempt to go deeper, but I will refrain because this is a truth that is a bit out of my league. I have my own thoughts on it, but I am not comfortable trying to present them. I can only rest on clear scripture that Christ saves, and that the salvation he offers is free to whosoever will.

[OneLight]

I guess this is the reason why there is so much controversy on the subject. There are many who do not believe as you do, and many who do. Through the history of those claim to be OSAS, they claim that they can sin all they want because God has covered all their sin, past, present and future, by the blood of Christ with no repentance or regeneration needed.

Again, as I told Butero, you are only speaking of hypers and not those who truly believe in Eternal security, OSAS or whatever one wants to call it.

It is in the word "Always" that is disagreeable in the Once Saved Always Save statement. That has nothing to do with hyper anything.