Salvation

[Guest Butero]

Elhanan, these men in question were still "teaching doctrines". They were not outwardly denying Christ, but teaching things contrary to the Christian faith such as forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats. In other instances they were teaching that the resurrection had already passed. I'm sorry you think I'm trying to twist scripture to fit my beliefs, but it is a wild stretch of the imagination to make those passages mean a man has departed from true faith in Christ. He is dealing with the spirit of antichrist that is and will continue to be prevalent in the local church. To make that passage refer to personal faith is to do great violence to the text.

I do agree that we should read the bible for what it says, but not every passage can be simply cast out in the open and taken at face value. You must compare scripture with scripture to fully understand it. I trust in the living Christ, he is my assurance of eternal life, I have no motives to be deceptive or cling to a man made doctrine, but I do seek to rightly handle scripture, and place it in it's proper divisions. I know a man who places his trust in Christ can never perish, I know salvation is the gift of God, so I must clarify any seemingly discrepancy in scripture with clear scripture. You can cling to pet scriptures to try and prove that one can lose salvation while I will believe God with full assurance, and thank him daily for his unspeakable gift.

So do you still cling to your idea that "the faith" in Scripture does not mean personal saving faith as you have ignored my counterpoint. If so, can you cite any scriptures that would support your belief? I have difficulty following your logic but if I may summarize what I think you're saying it would go something like this - Since a true believer can never fall away, even following false doctrine will never cause a believer to be lost. You conveniently overlook the fact of how Paul himself characterizes what you would describe as simply men teaching doctrines. Paul in no uncertain terms says they are DOCTRINES OF DEMONS. So, according to your belief a believer can follow doctrines of demons and yet still be saved. Isn't that sheer hypocrisy? You continue to ignore the plain warnings of Scripture in order to preserve your personal beliefs. Don't ignore what Paul says about the importance between maintaining doctrine and saving faith: "Watch your life and doctrine closely (a command). Persevere in them, because IF YOU DO (conditional clause), you WILL (not already have) save both yourself and your hearers" 1 Tim 4:16. That is what you call allowing scripture to speak for itself.

It is unbelievable how some here can ignore verses that were presented on how born again believers are kept and keep themselves and then cling on some verses which expose or they think exposes believers losing their salvation.

Think about this,

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33 They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

37 I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

38 ¶ I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

4100. πιστευω pisteuo pist-yoo’-o; from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well-being to Christ): —

repeating, there is a difference between those that truly believe and those who only acknowledge the facts.

Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Not everyone that was saved out of Egypt was spiritually saved. They all were physically saved but were they spiritually saved?

The same goes for the church hence the example in Jude.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Yes we who are spiritually saved continue unto the end, those who join the church and fall away are not.

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6 ¶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Really, is it possible to give someone understanding?

Here is an example of self righteousness.

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

So you can keep the law and see how well you obtain righteousness.

I love this post, because it shows the tactics being used by those on the other side. Notice the first paragraph. This guy doesn't like the way we ignore scriptures he claims proves eternal security, and that we cling to verses that show we don't have eternal security. I can simply turn the statement around. This comment proves nothing and accomplishes nothing. It is like trying to show that this individual is shocked at our ignorance, and refusal to accept what he is presenting, as though that will get us to re-consider. It won't. Then he floods us with scriptures that doen't prove his point, but they are placed in one thread to make it look overwhelming. Then he gives us that final comment to scare us into thinking we are choosing to be saved by keeping the law, and then we will see where that gets us? I can turn this around as well, and say that in the end, at the final judgment, we will see where OSAS has gotten those who believe in it. Big deal! It is a scare tactic, and that won't work either.

[Guest Butero]

Tit 3:5-6 KJV

(5)Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

(6)Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Most excellent points

We do not get credit.

• It is not for anything we have done as 'who can bring him down from above?'. It isn't because we were righteous that he chose to send Jesus Christ but because God so loved the world as God is love.
  
  He gets all the credit for all that salvation is truly comprised of which can be seen in those verses.
  • It took Gods mercy to save us. He had to choose to give us what we did not deserve and that is salvation.
    
  • By the washing of regeneration which is equally translated the baptism of the new birth which is part of salvation.
    
  • And the renewing of the Holy Ghost (Spirit) which is the sanctification process by which our minds are refreshed and made new again, which is also part of salvation.
    

  Salvation is a process not an event when considered as a whole. Each part individually can be spoken of on its own and after it has occurred one can use the term 'saved' to describe it in a past tense. For example we were 'saved' by the blood when we received the atonement for our sin but yet we are saved by his life still yet through his intercession for us all the while he is saving us through the process of sanctification and finally our Salvation, as a whole, will be revealed at his coming.

  Praise God for all his works of salvation!

  That lone verse proves nothing. Here is why. We were all born into this world in sin, as a result of Adam's transgression. That means that there is no person on the face of the earth that could be saved by the works of the law, because one spot would keep us out of heaven. For that reason, none of us can boast that we were saved by our own works, even if we reject eternal security, or were able to keep every one of God's laws in absolute perfection. I still contend that wilful transgressions after getting saved are not automatically under the blood covering, and you won't get into heaven unless you confess them. In that way, if a Christian decides to rob a bank, everything he did before the bank robbery was under the blood, but when he commits that act of theft, he is lost. That sin is not under the blood, and if he were to die before confessing it, he would go to hell. The verse that was posted in no wise proves this wrong.

[OneLight]

You did not address one word Jesus said, but tried to sift the conversation to another part of scripture. Let me be as plain as possible. What do you think about what Jesus said to the church of Sardis pertaining to being blotted out of the Book of Life? Here is the scripture once again.

Revelation 3:5

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Our Lord made a very clear statement, and one that can easily be understood when comparing scripture. First, "he who overcomes". Every single one of God's born one's overcomes the world, this is a bible fact.

1Jn 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

1Jn 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

1Jn 4:4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

While you are doing your best to prove a point that one can be blotted out, you miss the bigger picture in that this is Christ reiterating his precious promises of never blotting out the name of the one who overcomes. All saints of God over come and our garments are made white by his precious blood. The thought is not the threat of being blotted out, but that the over comer will not be blotted out.

Do you think anyone not born of God would overcome? I didn't think so, so to make an argument based on this is not convincing. I am not trying to prove anything, but to open your eyes to what He is saying. If you really take the time to look at the letters in Revelation, Jesus does talk about those who overcome. Jesus was talking to those who are in Him, giving them a a warning. You can ignore the truth if you want, that is your choice, but there is no getting around it in the end.

Hi Onelight,

Good post and it is not that I don’t see your point about the letters in Revelation, but He was speaking to the whole church, not only to those that were born again. I would doubt that the whole church was born again.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

19 ¶ Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.

22 ¶ Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will

give

them

repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

I just want to give God the glory for my salvation. I don’t want to glorify myself.

Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Good talking with you again…

Take a closer look at the verses you quoted. If I were to follow what you are saying as truth, then I could earn my salvation by the works I do. This is not scriptural. Since one cannot work their way to salvation, they are already saved who have to ensure that what they do is of Him. Look at the example that was given about Hymenaeus and Philetus. They were saved, but allowed themselves to be led astray by false doctrine. They because a vessel of dishonor. So, yes, is every church there will be vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor, depending on what truths they hold. What you bring does not show that those Christ spoke to in Revelation 3:5 were unbelievers, but believers led astray.

[saved34]

Not true. Those chosen of God to be eternally kept will be kept, but those chosen by God to fall away will have their names blotted out of his book.

Those are some strong words Butero, can you show me the scripture to back up your last statement? "Those chosen by God to fall away". What scriptures are you basing that doctrine off of? Patently waiting for the references.

Even you stated that if a person seems to get saved, lives the Christian life for 20 years, and then falls away, he is not really saved. You would say he was never really saved. That is a rejection of OSAS, because you have no way of knowing who was really saved?

His falling away would be how I would know he was not one of us.

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Heb 10:39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

As I said earlier, there are no scriptures presented by the OSAS crowd I can't refute and show that they don't prove unconditional eternal secuirty as taught by most Baptists today.

Ok, by scripture refute this

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Joh 5:24 "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Eph 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Eph 1:14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

According to scripture we have passed from death, to life, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, who himself is the guarantee of our inheritance.Now, refute these precious truths with what you think discredits them. Patiently waiting.

[saved34]

Take a closer look at the verses you quoted. If I were to follow what you are saying as truth, then I could earn my salvation by the works I do. This is not scriptural. Since one cannot work their way to salvation, they are already saved who have to ensure that what they do is of Him.

Onelight

So one cannot work their way to salvation, but they can not work their way out of it? I'm a bit confused on your position now. There is a disconnect somewhere, while you say one cannot earn salvation, there is some stipulation in your own mind and theology that says a man can lose the redemption that Christ has secured for the believing sinner. It cannot be both ways, either you believe it is all of grace, or you believe there is some measure of good works that effectively keeps one saved. Never mind the fact that a faith that does not produce works is not a true faith at all, which means that person was never saved, but I'm a bit confused on your position.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

[asper]

Read what the Greek says. Jesus is speaking to believers. Believers are the only ones who have their name written in the Book of Life.

lol I can't read greek, and that is just your own private interpretation. You cannot believe that Christ was ONLY addressing believers unless you are willing to say that everyone in the local assembly is a saved man or woman. He was addressing REAL churches first and foremost.You cannot use those passages to try and "cancel" clear scripture.

He most definately was addressing real believers, and OneLight is correct in saying only true born again believers have their name written in the book of life. This is not debatable. He was addressing a Christian assembly,not unbelievers. Had be been addressing unbelievers, he would have been giving them the message of salvation. I don't need to know Greek to see that.

I guess if you assume at least one of these things then your interpretation can work,

One is that when you are born again then you are written in the book of life. The problem is that this was done from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The second assumption is that God has predestinated some to eternal death. The problem with that are these verses.

Genesis 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Psalms 81:15 The haters of the LORD should have submitted themselves unto him: but their time should have endured for ever.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

The third assumption is that everyone in the church is real believers.

2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Fourth assumption is that there is no distinction between being written in the book of life and being written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Psalms 69:21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

22 ¶ Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap.

23 Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.

24 Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.

25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.

26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.

27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.

28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Scribes and Pharisees and Roman soldiers crucified The Lord. At what time were they in the book of life?

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Side note- predestination is true but double predestination is not.

[Guest man]

That lone verse proves nothing. Here is why. We were all born into this world in sin, as a result of Adam's transgression. That means that there is no person on the face of the earth that could be saved by the works of the law, because one spot would keep us out of heaven. For that reason, none of us can boast that we were saved by our own works, even if we reject eternal security, or were able to keep every one of God's laws in absolute perfection. I still contend that wilful transgressions after getting saved are not automatically under the blood covering, and you won't get into heaven unless you confess them. In that way, if a Christian decides to rob a bank, everything he did before the bank robbery was under the blood, but when he commits that act of theft, he is lost. That sin is not under the blood, and if he were to die before confessing it, he would go to hell. The verse that was posted in no wise proves this wrong.

That shouldn't even be an issue.

Hebrews 10

²⁶ For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Lots wife is a perfect example of what happens when we disobey God.

[saved34]

Haha, Asper is about to make me do an old fashioned church shout this morning. Great post bro.

[saved34]

That lone verse proves nothing. Here is why. We were all born into this world in sin, as a result of Adam's transgression. That means that there is no person on the face of the earth that could be saved by the works of the law, because one spot would keep us out of heaven. For that reason, none of us can boast that we were saved by our own works, even if we reject eternal security, or were able to keep every one of God's laws in absolute perfection. I still contend that wilful transgressions after getting saved are not automatically under the blood covering, and you won't get into heaven unless you confess them. In that way, if a Christian decides to rob a bank, everything he did before the bank robbery was under the blood, but when he commits that act of theft, he is lost. That sin is not under the blood, and if he were to die before confessing it, he would go to hell. The verse that was posted in no wise proves this wrong.

That shouldn't even be an issue.

Hebrews 10

²⁶ For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Lots wife is a perfect example of what happens when we disobey God.

Bro, that is not talking about sinning as in adultery, stealing, fornication, etc, it is talking about receiving the knowledge that Christ is the way, the only way to God and salvation, yet turning to other means of trying to appease God. In this instance many of the Hebrews were turning back to animal sacrifices. They had made a profession of Christianity but now because of heavy persecution were drawing back and in so doing, renouncing Christ and the covenant of grace.

As far as Lots wife being an example, we will be turned to pillars of salt? X^P In all seriousness, I understand your point on that, but please understand what the passage in Hebrews 10 is really dealing with.

[asper]

You did not address one word Jesus said, but tried to sift the conversation to another part of scripture. Let me be as plain as possible. What do you think about what Jesus said to the church of Sardis pertaining to being blotted out of the Book of Life? Here is the scripture once again.

Revelation 3:5

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Our Lord made a very clear statement, and one that can easily be understood when comparing scripture. First, "he who overcomes". Every single one of God's born one's overcomes the world, this is a bible fact.

1Jn 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

1Jn 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

1Jn 4:4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

While you are doing your best to prove a point that one can be blotted out, you miss the bigger picture in that this is Christ reiterating his precious promises of never blotting out the name of the one who overcomes. All saints of God over come and our garments are made white by his precious blood. The thought is not the threat of being blotted out, but that the over comer will not be blotted out.

Do you think anyone not born of God would overcome? I didn't think so, so to make an argument based on this is not convincing. I am not trying to prove anything, but to open your eyes to what He is saying. If you really take the time to look at the letters in Revelation, Jesus does talk about those who overcome. Jesus was talking to those who are in Him, giving them a a warning. You can ignore the truth if you want, that is your choice, but there is no getting around it in the end.

Hi Onelight,

Good post and it is not that I don’t see your point about the letters in Revelation, but He was speaking to the whole church, not only to those that were born again. I would doubt that the whole church was born again.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

19 ¶ Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.

22 ¶ Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will

give

them

repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

I just want to give God the glory for my salvation. I don’t want to glorify myself.

Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Good talking with you again…

Take a closer look at the verses you quoted. If I were to follow what you are saying as truth, then I could earn my salvation by the works I do. This is not scriptural. Since one cannot work their way to salvation, they are already saved who have to ensure that what they do is of Him. Look at the example that was given about Hymenaeus and Philetus. They were saved, but allowed themselves to be led astray by false doctrine. They because a vessel of dishonor. So, yes, is every church there will be vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor, depending on what truths they hold. What you bring does not show that those Christ spoke to in Revelation 3:5 were unbelievers, but believers led astray.

First off the Scriptures are true, it isn’t my fault that you misinterpreting them.

Obviously you cannot work your way to heaven. But there is Someone you can go to to purge yourself and there is Someone who can give repentance to you so you can have the power of God in your life.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

But how is it you don’t consider the other part, do you work to stay saved?

So….

Anyway I don’t know how you guys have so much time on your hands, but I don’t. talk to you later.