Salvation

[OneLight]

I guess if you assume at least one of these things then your interpretation can work,

One is that when you are born again then you are written in the book of life. The problem is that this was done from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Yes, God does know who will accept His Son from the beginning of time, otherwise, God would not be Omniscient. This is not a problem at all when you understand His Omniscient attribute.

[Elhanan]

Ok, by scripture refute this

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Joh 5:24 "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Eph 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Eph 1:14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

According to scripture we have passed from death, to life, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, who himself is the guarantee of our inheritance. Now, refute these precious truths with what you think discredits them. Patiently waiting.

I will oblige you with a simple refutation. Yes, we are saved from the moment we "believe" but you need to examine the use of the Greek tenses more closely in the couple of Johannine passages you cited. In both Jn 3:16 and 5:24 the word rendered "believe" should instead be "believing" as the Greek is written in the present, continuous sense. Therefore, belief does not mean just a one time moment of "belief" in the past regarding salvation but a believing - continued, present and ongoing belief regarding one's salvation. We have salvation as long as we are continuing to believe. Hence if we are no longer believing = no longer any salvation.

[Guest Butero]

First of all, I believe what you call "double predestination" is true, therefore nothing you said works. The only thing I have reason to address is whether everyone in those churches had been saved? They didn't have to be. The messages were to people that had been saved. You can tell that by what was said. It wasn't a message of salvation, but repentance for someone who had fallen. They are being called to return to a previous state.

So wait a minute, if your interpretation of "double predestination" is true, how can one be lost if he is predestined (God predetermining him) to be saved? You have acknowledged that those who are so called "predestined to hell" are guaranteed to go there. How do you rectify this theology with your beliefs of the willful sin? What if the predestined one does not repent in time(your beliefs, not mine) and does not get to confess and repent before he or she dies? Does this unelect them? I'm confused on some of the positions you guys are preaching.

Let me see if I can explain this better? If you are predestined to be saved, you will be saved, but only God knows who those people are. Most Calvanists I know will tell you that if you have a heart towards God, you are predestined saved, so naturally, they believe they are saved. I don't believe that. I am saying that only God knows who are his. That is why we are told to make our calling and election sure in the way we live. Let me give you two examples.

You have two men get saved at a revival meeting. One man continues to live for Christ for the next 10 years, and then falls away, and returns into full blown sin. The other man doesn't live for Christ for the next 10 years, but then gets serious, and turns to God with his whole heart. Whatever road they take was pre-determined. It was pre-determined that the second man would go to heaven, even though he didn't live for Christ from the start, and it was pre-determined the first man would go to hell, though he endured for a time.

With regard to wilful sin, if any man comes to Christ, he won't turn him away. That man can be pre-destined lost, but if he were to die while living for Christ, he would go to heaven. The only problem is, he won't die while living for Christ. He will fall back into wilful sin, and die in those sins. He will live long enough where it will occur as God planned from the start.

[Guest Butero]

Tit 3:5-6 KJV

(5)Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

(6)Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Most excellent points

We do not get credit.

• It is not for anything we have done as 'who can bring him down from above?'. It isn't because we were righteous that he chose to send Jesus Christ but because God so loved the world as God is love.
  
  He gets all the credit for all that salvation is truly comprised of which can be seen in those verses.
  • It took Gods mercy to save us. He had to choose to give us what we did not deserve and that is salvation.
    
  • By the washing of regeneration which is equally translated the baptism of the new birth which is part of salvation.
    
  • And the renewing of the Holy Ghost (Spirit) which is the sanctification process by which our minds are refreshed and made new again, which is also part of salvation.
    

  Salvation is a process not an event when considered as a whole. Each part individually can be spoken of on its own and after it has occurred one can use the term 'saved' to describe it in a past tense. For example we were 'saved' by the blood when we received the atonement for our sin but yet we are saved by his life still yet through his intercession for us all the while he is saving us through the process of sanctification and finally our Salvation, as a whole, will be revealed at his coming.

  Praise God for all his works of salvation!

  That lone verse proves nothing. Here is why. We were all born into this world in sin, as a result of Adam's transgression. That means that there is no person on the face of the earth that could be saved by the works of the law, because one spot would keep us out of heaven. For that reason, none of us can boast that we were saved by our own works, even if we reject eternal security, or were able to keep every one of God's laws in absolute perfection. I still contend that wilful transgressions after getting saved are not automatically under the blood covering, and you won't get into heaven unless you confess them. In that way, if a Christian decides to rob a bank, everything he did before the bank robbery was under the blood, but when he commits that act of theft, he is lost. That sin is not under the blood, and if he were to die before confessing it, he would go to hell. The verse that was posted in no wise proves this wrong.

  Yeah but you also think that we are all just a bunch of robots who cannot do anything except that which we were made to do. I give no weight to that which you believe as your foundation is wrought with error.

  So don't. What is that to me?

[asper]

Read what the Greek says. Jesus is speaking to believers. Believers are the only ones who have their name written in the Book of Life.

lol I can't read greek, and that is just your own private interpretation. You cannot believe that Christ was ONLY addressing believers unless you are willing to say that everyone in the local assembly is a saved man or woman. He was addressing REAL churches first and foremost.You cannot use those passages to try and "cancel" clear scripture.

He most definately was addressing real believers, and OneLight is correct in saying only true born again believers have their name written in the book of life. This is not debatable. He was addressing a Christian assembly,not unbelievers. Had be been addressing unbelievers, he would have been giving them the message of salvation. I don't need to know Greek to see that.

I guess if you assume at least one of these things then your interpretation can work,

One is that when you are born again then you are written in the book of life. The problem is that this was done from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The second assumption is that God has predestinated some to eternal death. The problem with that are these verses.

Genesis 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Psalms 81:15 The haters of the LORD should have submitted themselves unto him: but their time should have endured for ever.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

The third assumption is that everyone in the church is real believers.

2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Fourth assumption is that there is no distinction between being written in the book of life and being written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Psalms 69:21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

22 ¶ Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap.

23 Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.

24 Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.

25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.

26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.

27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.

28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Scribes and Pharisees and Roman soldiers crucified The Lord. At what time were they in the book of life?

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Side note- predestination is true but double predestination is not.

First of all, I believe what you call "double predestination" is true, therefore nothing you said works. The only thing I have reason to address is whether everyone in those churches had been saved? They didn't have to be. The messages were to people that had been saved. You can tell that by what was said. It wasn't a message of salvation, but repentance for someone who had fallen. They are being called to return to a previous state.

How so?

1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome <3528> them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh <3528> the world: and this is the victory that overcometh <3528> the world, even our faith.

1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh <3528> the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

[Guest Butero]

Read what the Greek says. Jesus is speaking to believers. Believers are the only ones who have their name written in the Book of Life.

lol I can't read greek, and that is just your own private interpretation. You cannot believe that Christ was ONLY addressing believers unless you are willing to say that everyone in the local assembly is a saved man or woman. He was addressing REAL churches first and foremost.You cannot use those passages to try and "cancel" clear scripture.

He most definately was addressing real believers, and OneLight is correct in saying only true born again believers have their name written in the book of life. This is not debatable. He was addressing a Christian assembly,not unbelievers. Had be been addressing unbelievers, he would have been giving them the message of salvation. I don't need to know Greek to see that.

I guess if you assume at least one of these things then your interpretation can work,

One is that when you are born again then you are written in the book of life. The problem is that this was done from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The second assumption is that God has predestinated some to eternal death. The problem with that are these verses.

Genesis 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Psalms 81:15 The haters of the LORD should have submitted themselves unto him: but their time should have endured for ever.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

The third assumption is that everyone in the church is real believers.

2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Fourth assumption is that there is no distinction between being written in the book of life and being written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Psalms 69:21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

22 ¶ Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap.

23 Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.

24 Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.

25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.

26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.

27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.

28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Scribes and Pharisees and Roman soldiers crucified The Lord. At what time were they in the book of life?

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Side note- predestination is true but double predestination is not.

First of all, I believe what you call "double predestination" is true, therefore nothing you said works. The only thing I have reason to address is whether everyone in those churches had been saved? They didn't have to be. The messages were to people that had been saved. You can tell that by what was said. It wasn't a message of salvation, but repentance for someone who had fallen. They are being called to return to a previous state.

How so?

1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome <3528> them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh <3528> the world: and this is the victory that overcometh <3528> the world, even our faith.

1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh <3528> the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

I honestly don't know what those scriptures have to do with anything I said? I was saying that those who are truly the called of God will overcome, and those who are not called to be saved will die lost. You will wind up wherever you were pre-destined to wind up, and this will be reflected in your lifestyle. I have posted much about this all throughout this thread and others explaining exactly what I mean. That is why the first thing I said in my response to you was I do believe in what you call "double pre-destination," though I had not heard this term till recently.

[saved34]

I will oblige you with a simple refutation. Yes, we are saved from the moment we "believe" but you need to examine the use of the Greek tenses more closely in the couple of Johannine passages you cited. In both Jn 3:16 and 5:24 the word rendered "believe" should instead be "believing" as the Greek is written in the present, continuous sense. Therefore, belief does not mean just a one time moment of "belief" in the past regarding salvation but a believing - continued, present and ongoing belief regarding one's salvation. We have salvation as long as we are continuing to believe. Hence if we are no longer believing = no longer any salvation.

Nice of you to Oblige me with absolutely no scripture brother E. The funny thing is, I do agree that the meaning is a constant belief. That is what believers do. Scripture is clear about those who so called had faith, and then lost it at some time or another. Our Lord said they had no root, they sprang up instantly and endured for a while, but the faith they had was without foundation and they fell away. The Apostle John says they left us because they were not of us. You and others insist on making them out to have been truly saved at one point, then to have fell away. No such thing, a person can have A belief and still not have saving faith. Many people have placed their trust in their parents being Godly, so they feel like they were grandfathered in to Christ. No admission of guilt, no recognizing they were lost, simply the fact that their parents were saved, they feel like they were saved too. Some people who claim Christianity put there faith in joining the Church. This to them makes them a Christian. Some put their faith in their own performance, as long as they don't do this, or don't do that, they feel safe, and think they are saved. None of these things are biblical saving faith or real faith. That stuff will last for a while but in the end it will come crashing down. Real faith comes by the word of God, specifically the Gospel. Presenting Christ to the sinner as his perfect substitute, and the sinner receiving this truth, casting himself on the mercy of God. It is that act of faith that Our Lord said will "Justify" the believing sinner before God. That is living, saving faith, in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. This genuine faith will produce works, and it will endure until the end. So, I do agree with your interpretation of "Believe" in the scriptures I posted, but that does not in anyway discredit eternal security or OSAS. Those that fall away never had it to begin with, they were tares, dogs, and pigs. They must receive the gift of life and become wheat, sheep, and saints through the precious blood of Christ.

[OneLight]

You did not address one word Jesus said, but tried to sift the conversation to another part of scripture. Let me be as plain as possible. What do you think about what Jesus said to the church of Sardis pertaining to being blotted out of the Book of Life? Here is the scripture once again.

Revelation 3:5

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Our Lord made a very clear statement, and one that can easily be understood when comparing scripture. First, "he who overcomes". Every single one of God's born one's overcomes the world, this is a bible fact.

1Jn 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

1Jn 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

1Jn 4:4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

While you are doing your best to prove a point that one can be blotted out, you miss the bigger picture in that this is Christ reiterating his precious promises of never blotting out the name of the one who overcomes. All saints of God over come and our garments are made white by his precious blood. The thought is not the threat of being blotted out, but that the over comer will not be blotted out.

Do you think anyone not born of God would overcome? I didn't think so, so to make an argument based on this is not convincing. I am not trying to prove anything, but to open your eyes to what He is saying. If you really take the time to look at the letters in Revelation, Jesus does talk about those who overcome. Jesus was talking to those who are in Him, giving them a a warning. You can ignore the truth if you want, that is your choice, but there is no getting around it in the end.

Hi Onelight,

Good post and it is not that I don’t see your point about the letters in Revelation, but He was speaking to the whole church, not only to those that were born again. I would doubt that the whole church was born again.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

19 ¶ Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.

22 ¶ Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will

give

them

repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

I just want to give God the glory for my salvation. I don’t want to glorify myself.

Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Good talking with you again…

Take a closer look at the verses you quoted. If I were to follow what you are saying as truth, then I could earn my salvation by the works I do. This is not scriptural. Since one cannot work their way to salvation, they are already saved who have to ensure that what they do is of Him. Look at the example that was given about Hymenaeus and Philetus. They were saved, but allowed themselves to be led astray by false doctrine. They because a vessel of dishonor. So, yes, is every church there will be vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor, depending on what truths they hold. What you bring does not show that those Christ spoke to in Revelation 3:5 were unbelievers, but believers led astray.

First off the Scriptures are true, it isn’t my fault that you misinterpreting them.

Obviously you cannot work your way to heaven. But there is Someone you can go to to purge yourself and there is Someone who can give repentance to you so you can have the power of God in your life.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

But how is it you don’t consider the other part, do you work to stay saved?

So….

Anyway I don’t know how you guys have so much time on your hands, but I don’t. talk to you later.

Perhaps you should take the time to show where I misinterpret scripture. If you don't have the time to explain what you accuse me of doing, then don't accuse me.

Then you quote Romans 1:16. What does that have to do with believers who do turn away from faith??

[asper]

You did not address one word Jesus said, but tried to sift the conversation to another part of scripture. Let me be as plain as possible. What do you think about what Jesus said to the church of Sardis pertaining to being blotted out of the Book of Life? Here is the scripture once again.

Revelation 3:5

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Our Lord made a very clear statement, and one that can easily be understood when comparing scripture. First, "he who overcomes". Every single one of God's born one's overcomes the world, this is a bible fact.

1Jn 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

1Jn 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

1Jn 4:4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

While you are doing your best to prove a point that one can be blotted out, you miss the bigger picture in that this is Christ reiterating his precious promises of never blotting out the name of the one who overcomes. All saints of God over come and our garments are made white by his precious blood. The thought is not the threat of being blotted out, but that the over comer will not be blotted out.

Do you think anyone not born of God would overcome? I didn't think so, so to make an argument based on this is not convincing. I am not trying to prove anything, but to open your eyes to what He is saying. If you really take the time to look at the letters in Revelation, Jesus does talk about those who overcome. Jesus was talking to those who are in Him, giving them a a warning. You can ignore the truth if you want, that is your choice, but there is no getting around it in the end.

Hi Onelight,

Good post and it is not that I don’t see your point about the letters in Revelation, but He was speaking to the whole church, not only to those that were born again. I would doubt that the whole church was born again.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

19 ¶ Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.

22 ¶ Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will

give

them

repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

I just want to give God the glory for my salvation. I don’t want to glorify myself.

Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Good talking with you again…

Take a closer look at the verses you quoted. If I were to follow what you are saying as truth, then I could earn my salvation by the works I do. This is not scriptural. Since one cannot work their way to salvation, they are already saved who have to ensure that what they do is of Him. Look at the example that was given about Hymenaeus and Philetus. They were saved, but allowed themselves to be led astray by false doctrine. They because a vessel of dishonor. So, yes, is every church there will be vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor, depending on what truths they hold. What you bring does not show that those Christ spoke to in Revelation 3:5 were unbelievers, but believers led astray.

First off the Scriptures are true, it isn’t my fault that you misinterpreting them.

Obviously you cannot work your way to heaven. But there is Someone you can go to to purge yourself and there is Someone who can give repentance to you so you can have the power of God in your life.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

But how is it you don’t consider the other part, do you work to stay saved?

So….

Anyway I don’t know how you guys have so much time on your hands, but I don’t. talk to you later.

Perhaps you should take the time to show where I misinterpret scripture. If you don't have the time to explain what you accuse me of doing, then don't accuse me.

Then you quote Romans 1:16. What does that have to do with believers who do turn away from faith??

I quoted Scripture and this is what you said.

“Take a closer look at the verses you quoted. If I were to follow what you are saying as truth, then I could earn my salvation by the works I do.”

The Scriptures are the Truth.

Seems like you were questioning the validity of these Scriptures.

If I misunderstood what you said then what were you saying?

This verse shows by whose power we are saved. Not by work like you said I was saying.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

But I guess the following verse would take care of any doubts that true believers cannot lose their salvation.

1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Btw , I never said I didn’t have time later or for something important.

Classic…

Edited March 27, 2013 by OneLight

[asper]

Read what the Greek says. Jesus is speaking to believers. Believers are the only ones who have their name written in the Book of Life.

lol I can't read greek, and that is just your own private interpretation. You cannot believe that Christ was ONLY addressing believers unless you are willing to say that everyone in the local assembly is a saved man or woman. He was addressing REAL churches first and foremost.You cannot use those passages to try and "cancel" clear scripture.

He most definately was addressing real believers, and OneLight is correct in saying only true born again believers have their name written in the book of life. This is not debatable. He was addressing a Christian assembly,not unbelievers. Had be been addressing unbelievers, he would have been giving them the message of salvation. I don't need to know Greek to see that.

I guess if you assume at least one of these things then your interpretation can work,

One is that when you are born again then you are written in the book of life. The problem is that this was done from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The second assumption is that God has predestinated some to eternal death. The problem with that are these verses.

Genesis 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Psalms 81:15 The haters of the LORD should have submitted themselves unto him: but their time should have endured for ever.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

The third assumption is that everyone in the church is real believers.

2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Fourth assumption is that there is no distinction between being written in the book of life and being written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Psalms 69:21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

22 ¶ Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap.

23 Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.

24 Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.

25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.

26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.

27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.

28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Scribes and Pharisees and Roman soldiers crucified The Lord. At what time were they in the book of life?

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Side note- predestination is true but double predestination is not.

First of all, I believe what you call "double predestination" is true, therefore nothing you said works. The only thing I have reason to address is whether everyone in those churches had been saved? They didn't have to be. The messages were to people that had been saved. You can tell that by what was said. It wasn't a message of salvation, but repentance for someone who had fallen. They are being called to return to a previous state.

How so?

1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome <3528> them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh <3528> the world: and this is the victory that overcometh <3528> the world, even our faith.

1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh <3528> the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

I honestly don't know what those scriptures have to do with anything I said? I was saying that those who are truly the called of God will overcome, and those who are not called to be saved will die lost. You will wind up wherever you were pre-destined to wind up, and this will be reflected in your lifestyle. I have posted much about this all throughout this thread and others explaining exactly what I mean. That is why the first thing I said in my response to you was I do believe in what you call "double pre-destination," though I had not heard this term till recently.

Hi butero,

It was in response to this statement,

“The messages were to people that had been saved. You can tell that by what was said. It wasn't a message of salvation, but repentance for someone who had fallen. They are being called to return to a previous state.”

If we overcome then why then is the warning? It is pretty much a done deal isn’t it since God said it in His word?

1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome <3528> them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh <3528> the world: and this is the victory that overcometh <3528> the world, even our faith.

1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh <3528> the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?