Salvation

[Elhanan]

HI asper, I agree with you that we will never reach sinless perfection this side of heaven. For 1 Jn 1:10 states "If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. I also agree that a truly saved person cannot continuously sin because a saved person will live a life of trusting obedience. I believe a person is saved from the moment of believing in Christ for one's salvation as we often point out in Jn 3:16. However, the offer of salvation in other verses elaborate on what the conditions of salvation are - in other words, what constitutes "belief." For example, consider Heb 5:9 - "and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who OBEY him." From this verse we can conclude that assurance of salvation is made to all who believe AND obey God. Also from Acts 26:20 -"First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their DEEDS." Some have claimed that having works or deeds means that one is trying to add to one's salvation. That is false as Acts 25:20 clearly shows that works or deeds prove that a believer manifests a repentant lifestyle. Deeds done out of obedience to God are never condemned in Scripture and always commended. Conversely, the disobedient and unrepentant brethren are warned: "For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live" (Rom 8:13).

[asper]

HI asper, I agree with you that we will never reach sinless perfection this side of heaven. For 1 Jn 1:10 states "If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. I also agree that a truly saved person cannot continuously sin because a saved person will live a life of trusting obedience. I believe a person is saved from the moment of believing in Christ for one's salvation as we often point out in Jn 3:16. However, the offer of salvation in other verses elaborate on what the conditions of salvation are - in other words, what constitutes "belief." For example, consider Heb 5:9 - "and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who OBEY him." From this verse we can conclude that assurance of salvation is made to all who believe AND obey God. Also from Acts 26:20 -"First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their DEEDS." Some have claimed that having works or deeds means that one is trying to add to one's salvation. That is false as Acts 25:20 clearly shows that works or deeds prove that a believer manifests a repentant lifestyle. Deeds done out of obedience to God are never condemned in Scripture and always commended. Conversely, the disobedient and unrepentant brethren are warned: "For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live" (Rom 8:13).

Hi Elhanan,

I think the difference is that where I believe it is God working in me that accomplishes my being kept in Him, whereas you believe it is submission that causes you to be kept.

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Those that are truly saved already obeyed.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Those that are truly saved have faith and react accordingly

Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Those that are truly saved, do love,

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

He is the one that showed mercy.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

If God doesn’t save completely then no one will be saved.

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 ¶ Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

We enter this relationship by the new birth,

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And this is one of the signs of being born again.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

So I don’t disagree with you that obedience is needed, I just disagree how it is accomplished.

But I still have to say that not everyone that is in the church is truly saved.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Talk to you later,

Hopefully everyone has a great Resurrection Sunday and that we are blessed by God.

Edited March 28, 2013 by asper

[OneLight]

I think the difference is that where I believe it is God working in me that accomplishes my being kept in Him, whereas you believe it is submission that causes you to be kept.

Perhaps you will be able to answer what other have not. I completely agree that it is God who does all the work worth doing, but when we are moved by His Spirit to accept His direction, does God automatically do it without our permission, or does what he have becomes an active relationship, working together? Do we have to allow Him to do what He wants to do?

[asper]

Hi Onelight,

In one way born again believers are completely in agreement with Him, in another way born again believers are in complete disagreement with Him. And of course in one way born again believers are in agreement with Him but are being torn apart by both sides .

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

So I would say God doesn’t do anything that the born again believer’s heart wouldn’t agree with.

Also there is nothing that God does that the born again believer’s flesh would agree with.

And I would think that the mind of the born again believer would go along with the desires of his heart although there may be some failures along the way.

But before salvation it is what you would call done automatically without our permission.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw <1670> him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1670. ελκυω helkuo hel-koo’-o; or ελκω helko hel’-ko; probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively): —

If someone were to drag you it is probably without your permission.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Some Scriptures to consider,

Matthew 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.

8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Psalms 27:8 When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek.

Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

1 Peter 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

[asper]

sorry double post

Edited March 29, 2013 by asper

[OneLight]

Hi Onelight,

In one way born again believers are completely in agreement with Him, in another way born again believers are in complete disagreement with Him. And of course in one way born again believers are in agreement with Him but are being torn apart by both sides .

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

So I would say God doesn’t do anything that the born again believer’s heart wouldn’t agree with.

Also there is nothing that God does that the born again believer’s flesh would agree with.

And I would think that the mind of the born again believer would go along with the desires of his heart although there may be some failures along the way.

But before salvation it is what you would call done automatically without our permission.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw <1670> him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1670. ελκυω helkuo hel-koo’-o; or ελκω helko hel’-ko; probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively): —

If someone were to drag you it is probably without your permission.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

I agree with a lot you have said, but still differ on your definition of helkuo. Though is does mean to draw, it is more than that. Here is what I have:

To draw toward without necessarily the notion of force as in suro (G4951) See Acts 8:3; 24:19; 17:6; Revelation 12:4, which does mean to drag, although it may be just implied (Acts 16:19, of persons, to drag, force before magistrates; 21-30, "out of the temple"; James 2:6). Helkuo is used by Jesus of the drawing of the souls unto Him (John 6:44; 12:32. to draw or induce to come.) It is drawing to a certain point as in John 21:6, 11 indicating the drawing of the net while suro (John 21:8) is merely dragging.

[asper]

Hi Onelight,

I agree that when lifting vertically or in the case of being still on our feet but being forced to go in a certain direction that our English word drag would not work too well and draw would be a better word to use in those cases. But draw has a wider possibility of meanings and can be misconstrued.

Miriam Webster dictionary.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/draw

But for further study here are all the occurrences of 1670

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw <1670> him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw <1670> all men unto me.

John 18:10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew <1670> it, and smote the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus.

John 21:6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw <1670> it for the multitude of fishes.

John 21:11 Simon Peter went up, and drew <1670> the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.

Acts 16:19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew <1670> them into the marketplace unto the rulers,

Acts 21:30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew <1670> him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.

James 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw <1670> you before the judgment seats?

I think we can see from the above (except the possibility of differing opinions on John 6:44 and 12:31) that they/it were not drug or drawn because of them/it being willing.

Good talking with you again, have a nice day.

Edited March 29, 2013 by asper

[saved34]

What we find in scripture is that God makes a way for us to overcome, not that everyone born of God willovercome. That is determined as we continue in Him.

Onelight, it does not say God makes a way for us to overcome, it says every born one of God overcome. Not a single one left out. Read it in every translation and they all say the same.

1Jn 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. -NIV

1Jn 5:4 because everyone who is born from God has overcome the world. Our faith is the victory that overcomes the world. -ISV

1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. -KJV

This is a truth that cannot be thrown on the back burner. It must be rightly divided with other scriptures so that the total truth may be brought to light. "He that overcometh" is ALL who have trusted in Christ.

What I have said all along is that we have a choice in every decision we make to follow God or not. Each choice determines if we remain on the path or wander off into false teaching, which, when brought to its fullness, can lead to a separation from God.

No, this is to deny the supernatural work that God has done in the believers life. This denies the reconciling power of Christ, who through the offering of himself, has now turned our hearts and minds towards God, we who were once enemies of God and haters of God, now we cry abba Father and delight in God's law from the inner man. A true believer can only go so far in sin. His new nature will not allow him to dwell in it, and being born from God his or her choice is to be with God. Not another. Jesus true sheep will flee from a stranger. If one is truly born again, he cannot practice sin. Our new nature will never turn from God. It is born from above and is the very nature of Christ.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

God does not abort anything. That would mean that it was His choice. Those who turn are doing so by their own free will, their choice. You fail to see the difference.

In reality bro, it is all his choice. Salvation has absolutely nothing to do with man's choice, or wisdom. It is all of God.

Joh 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

Joh 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God

Eph 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

Eph 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

If you read the great chapter of Romans 8 you will see that way back before you or I ever "selected Christ", we were selected of him, and glorified, Justified, called, predestined, etc. Now I'm no Calvinist, and I do believe man must make a choice once God shines the light of truth to him, but that does not discredit our great salvation being planned out by God in all wisdom. He will not lose a single one of his predestined one's. He already has them seated at his right hand in Christ as we type these words. I'm not hoping and wishing I make it to heaven, I'm there right now(by faith) in the very person of Christ Jesus. Not by any works or will of mine, but by his grace and mercy.

Eph 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,

Eph 2:5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.

Eph 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

That is where OSAS fails, they ignore that man can turn. It is like some security blanket or teddy bear, that if they hold onto it tight enough, they are safe. That is the difference between OSAS and Eternal Security.

Bro, we do not trust in OSAS to remain safe. Any man who trusts in OSAS as his or her means of salvation will perish. We trust in Christ himself. He is our guarantee of salvation. It is he who is my Justification(a judicial act of God whereby he declares me righteous on Christ's merits). Trust in a doctrine has saved no one, it is trust in Christ that makes me believe in eternal security because no man has ever perished trusting in Christ and his mercy. Jesus gave us the story of the publican. A man who knew how great a sinner he was, yet he knew God was plentiful in mercy and Christ said he was Justified as opposed to the man who didn't do this, or that. The thief on the cross," Lord remember me" , simple words, yet enough to get him a place with the Lord. He did not live an over comers life, he believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and was saved. Eternal security is found in Christ. He promised me life, and he cannot lie. This promise is not conditional, but a gift, and by his grace. I show myself to be genuine if I persevere and endure to the end, but I do not endure and persevere to be saved. That is not the Gospel, and to attempt to mix the two is to water down the truth of the Gospel and make it ineffective.

Show me where Christ is not saying what He said in the letters to the church by using the letters themselves. To fully understand scripture, you need to not ignore the parts you cannot agree with. Instead of making scripture form to your belief, allow your belief to be formed by scripture.

You have been shown sufficiently, but you insist on making those scriptures contradict clear doctrines like salvation by grace through faith. The very pet verse you continue to throw out suggests that there are different sectors of people he is talking to. In a local church this is always the case. He clearly said there are some of you who have clean garments, the group he is addressing is told to be like them, and they too will enjoy blessings.

[saved34]

I will oblige you with a simple refutation. Yes, we are saved from the moment we "believe" but you need to examine the use of the Greek tenses more closely in the couple of Johannine passages you cited. In both Jn 3:16 and 5:24 the word rendered "believe" should instead be "believing" as the Greek is written in the present, continuous sense. Therefore, belief does not mean just a one time moment of "belief" in the past regarding salvation but a believing - continued, present and ongoing belief regarding one's salvation. We have salvation as long as we are continuing to believe. Hence if we are no longer believing = no longer any salvation.

Nice of you to Oblige me with absolutely no scripture brother E. The funny thing is, I do agree that the meaning is a constant belief. That is what believers do. Scripture is clear about those who so called had faith, and then lost it at some time or another. Our Lord said they had no root, they sprang up instantly and endured for a while, but the faith they had was without foundation and they fell away. The Apostle John says they left us because they were not of us. You and others insist on making them out to have been truly saved at one point, then to have fell away. No such thing, a person can have A belief and still not have saving faith. Many people have placed their trust in their parents being Godly, so they feel like they were grandfathered in to Christ. No admission of guilt, no recognizing they were lost, simply the fact that their parents were saved, they feel like they were saved too. Some people who claim Christianity put there faith in joining the Church. This to them makes them a Christian. Some put their faith in their own performance, as long as they don't do this, or don't do that, they feel safe, and think they are saved. None of these things are biblical saving faith or real faith. That stuff will last for a while but in the end it will come crashing down. Real faith comes by the word of God, specifically the Gospel. Presenting Christ to the sinner as his perfect substitute, and the sinner receiving this truth, casting himself on the mercy of God. It is that act of faith that Our Lord said will "Justify" the believing sinner before God. That is living, saving faith, in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. This genuine faith will produce works, and it will endure until the end. So, I do agree with your interpretation of "Believe" in the scriptures I posted, but that does not in anyway discredit eternal security or OSAS. Those that fall away never had it to begin with, they were tares, dogs, and pigs. They must receive the gift of life and become wheat, sheep, and saints through the precious blood of Christ.

You claim I obliged you with no scripture and you are correct because I used the same scriptures you provided to counter your argument. No need to provide other scriptures when the ones you provided simply suffice to make my point. At least you agree that belief should be rendered believing rather than belief. Your standard default argument is always that a believer cannot fall away because they were never truly saved to begin with. I agree with you that Scripture depicts those that were never of the faith to begin with so they never possessed eternal life. However, you misinterpret those scriptures that also depict those that were truly saved but later forfeit or lose their salvation. For example you make this claim: " Our Lord said they had no root, they sprang up instantly and endured for a while, but the faith they had was without foundation and they fell away." Lets compare your interpretation with Jesus' interpretation in Rom 8:13. "Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away." I'm assume you're claiming that these are people who never had genuine saving to begin with. Yet Jesus states that they BELIEVE. When time of testing comes, these believers FALL AWAY.

I agree with you Elhanan, the Lord did say they "believed", but I'd like you to explain what he meant by "they had no root" and could not sustain because of this. When the Holy Spirit enlightens man to the truth, and a man "believes" and then falls away, he is missing all the great truths that makes one a genuine "believer". The writer of Hebrews puts it like this:

Heb 6:9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case--the things that have to do with salvation.

"Better things in your case...things that accompany salvation". These so called believers have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit because it is he who convicts the world, but believers are made partakers of Christ, these people have tasted, we are to eat his flesh and drink his blood as one would nourish himself on food. Though it says they believed, they miss the tenses of the genuine believers who recieved the word with patience, and understanding, they clearly had the root of genuine faith as opposed to those who sprang up immediately. The antichrists or apostates do have a spurrious belief for a while, but because they lack the genuine faith rooted in Christ, they fall away. I do agree with you that they believed, but not according to knowledge, and not genuine. Scripture is clear.

Heb 10:39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

We as men have no real way of identifying who has genuine faith and who are just professors. Paul once acknowledged Demas as a brother in Christ, then later said "He loved this world". We know by scripture if a man love the world the love of God is not in him. He proved to be false even though he obviously professed faith at one time.

Col 4:14 Our dear friend Luke, the doctor, and Demas send greetings.

2Ti 4:10 for Demas, because he loved this world, has deserted me and has gone to Thessalonica.

1Jn 2:15 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them.

[Elhanan]

hello saved34 - apparently you overlooked this previous post in reply to you so I'll just repost again rather than taking the time to reply: Unfortunately, you go to great lengths to force upon the passage an interpretation that simply isn't there. You claim that this 2nd group "did not understand" the Word and therefore must have "believed something" other than the gospel so they were never true believers. Your claim is weak when Luke 8, Matt 13 & Mark 4 are examined. First we know that the correct message was sown because Lk 8:11 says that the seed represents the Word of God. Therefore no one in these groups was given the wrong message - they all were given the Word. But you somehow claim the second group simply misunderstood the message - no where does it state that - you are imposing your interpretation upon the text = bad hermeneutics. The text specifically says that the only group that didn't understand and believe was the first group: "When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path" (Matt 13:19). Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved" (Lk 8:12). In reference to the 2nd group, you claim that the 2nd group received something else or understood something different. Lk 8:13 states that they with joy, received nothing other than the Word. Lk 8:13: "Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away." Even when you somehow claim that they misunderstood the word/message, your interpretation still doesn't make sense. In other words according to your interpretation, the last sentence of vs 13 should read: "They believe [but not really believe because they misunderstood] for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away [because they were never saved to begin with]." How can one fall away from the wrong message or wrong understanding?? One can only fall away from the truth. It doesn't make any sense to say they fell away from falsehood or the wrong message or false understanding. In doing so, you defy logic and strain the text to force upon it your interpretation.