Salvation

[saved34]

hello saved34 - apparently you overlooked this previous post in reply to you so I'll just repost again rather than taking the time to reply: Unfortunately, you go to great lengths to force upon the passage an interpretation that simply isn't there. You claim that this 2nd group "did not understand" the Word and therefore must have "believed something" other than the gospel so they were never true believers. Your claim is weak when Luke 8, Matt 13 & Mark 4 are examined. First we know that the correct message was sown because Lk 8:11 says that the seed represents the Word of God. Therefore no one in these groups was given the wrong message - they all were given the Word. But you somehow claim the second group simply misunderstood the message - no where does it state that - you are imposing your interpretation upon the text = bad hermeneutics. The text specifically says that the only group that didn't understand and believe was the first group: "When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path" (Matt 13:19). Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved" (Lk 8:12). In reference to the 2nd group, you claim that the 2nd group received something else or understood something different. Lk 8:13 states that they with joy, received nothing other than the Word. Lk 8:13: "Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away." Even when you somehow claim that they misunderstood the word/message, your interpretation still doesn't make sense. In other words according to your interpretation, the last sentence of vs 13 should read: "They believe [but not really believe because they misunderstood] for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away [because they were never saved to begin with]." How can one fall away from the wrong message or wrong understanding?? One can only fall away from the truth. It doesn't make any sense to say they fell away from falsehood or the wrong message or false understanding. In doing so, you defy logic and strain the text to force upon it your interpretation.

Hi brother Elhanan, I did see your well thought out post, and responded to it, I simply quoted the wrong post. My thoughts jotted down in my most recent post was my answer to your post of trying to make those with no root in them out to be genuinely born again. My question still stands as well, what did Christ mean by "they have no root in them". You and I know that Christ is our root, our anchor, our foundation. What was missing in these particular people that made them not be able to sustain or hold on? If it's simply a matter of endurance, Christ said he holds his sheep and would leave 99 just to bring one who had strayed.Interested in your beliefs as to why they could not hold out and simply fell away.

[OneLight]

What we find in scripture is that God makes a way for us to overcome, not that everyone born of God willovercome. That is determined as we continue in Him.

Onelight, it does not say God makes a way for us to overcome, it says every born one of God overcome. Not a single one left out. Read it in every translation and they all say the same.

1Jn 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. -NIV

1Jn 5:4 because everyone who is born from God has overcome the world. Our faith is the victory that overcomes the world. -ISV

1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. -KJV

This is a truth that cannot be thrown on the back burner. It must be rightly divided with other scriptures so that the total truth may be brought to light. "He that overcometh" is ALL who have trusted in Christ.

Notice the conditions places in the context your verse is taken from.

1 John 5:1-5

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

If one keeps His commandments, they will overcome, or conquer. The point is made in scripture that not all follow His commandments, though they believe in Jesus Christ and follow Him to certain points in their lives. If they do not repent and follow Him, they will loose out.

[OneLight]

What I have said all along is that we have a choice in every decision we make to follow God or not. Each choice determines if we remain on the path or wander off into false teaching, which, when brought to its fullness, can lead to a separation from God.

No, this is to deny the supernatural work that God has done in the believers life. This denies the reconciling power of Christ, who through the offering of himself, has now turned our hearts and minds towards God, we who were once enemies of God and haters of God, now we cry abba Father and delight in God's law from the inner man. A true believer can only go so far in sin. His new nature will not allow him to dwell in it, and being born from God his or her choice is to be with God. Not another. Jesus true sheep will flee from a stranger. If one is truly born again, he cannot practice sin. Our new nature will never turn from God. It is born from above and is the very nature of Christ.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

I never have question the salvation of anyone who's heart is toward God and desires to remain in Him. Yet, what does 1 John 1:8 say? "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." We can continue if you wish, but I would rather have you address what is said in the letters of Christ to the Seven Churches in Revelation.

[OneLight]

God does not abort anything. That would mean that it was His choice. Those who turn are doing so by their own free will, their choice. You fail to see the difference.

In reality bro, it is all his choice. Salvation has absolutely nothing to do with man's choice, or wisdom. It is all of God.

Joh 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

Joh 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God

Eph 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

Eph 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

If you read the great chapter of Romans 8 you will see that way back before you or I ever "selected Christ", we were selected of him, and glorified, Justified, called, predestined, etc. Now I'm no Calvinist, and I do believe man must make a choice once God shines the light of truth to him, but that does not discredit our great salvation being planned out by God in all wisdom. He will not lose a single one of his predestined one's. He already has them seated at his right hand in Christ as we type these words. I'm not hoping and wishing I make it to heaven, I'm there right now(by faith) in the very person of Christ Jesus. Not by any works or will of mine, but by his grace and mercy.

Yes, the verse reads:

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

The question I ask is what does it mean that He foreknew? I believe that God knew what our choices would be before He predestined us to be like Christ. This does not mean we did not have a choice. It means He knew what our choice would be.

[OneLight]

That is where OSAS fails, they ignore that man can turn. It is like some security blanket or teddy bear, that if they hold onto it tight enough, they are safe. That is the difference between OSAS and Eternal Security.

Bro, we do not trust in OSAS to remain safe. Any man who trusts in OSAS as his or her means of salvation will perish. We trust in Christ himself. He is our guarantee of salvation. It is he who is my Justification(a judicial act of God whereby he declares me righteous on Christ's merits). Trust in a doctrine has saved no one, it is trust in Christ that makes me believe in eternal security because no man has ever perished trusting in Christ and his mercy. Jesus gave us the story of the publican. A man who knew how great a sinner he was, yet he knew God was plentiful in mercy and Christ said he was Justified as opposed to the man who didn't do this, or that. The thief on the cross," Lord remember me" , simple words, yet enough to get him a place with the Lord. He did not live an over comers life, he believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and was saved. Eternal security is found in Christ. He promised me life, and he cannot lie. This promise is not conditional, but a gift, and by his grace. I show myself to be genuine if I persevere and endure to the end, but I do not endure and persevere to be saved. That is not the Gospel, and to attempt to mix the two is to water down the truth of the Gospel and make it ineffective.

I agree with what you said. One has to want to remain in Him, to continue placing their trust in God. That has never been a question in my eyes. The question is if someone could turn form God and I still believe they can. There have been many scripture posted, but they all require the person to remain in Him, and none address anyone choosing to turn. What do you think of James 5:19-20 "Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins."?

Show me where Christ is not saying what He said in the letters to the church by using the letters themselves. To fully understand scripture, you need to not ignore the parts you cannot agree with. Instead of making scripture form to your belief, allow your belief to be formed by scripture.

You have been shown sufficiently, but you insist on making those scriptures contradict clear doctrines like salvation by grace through faith. The very pet verse you continue to throw out suggests that there are different sectors of people he is talking to. In a local church this is always the case. He clearly said there are some of you who have clean garments, the group he is addressing is told to be like them, and they too will enjoy blessings.

No, the verses have not been addressed. Other scripture has been brought in to try to prove what I believe as wrong. Try addressing the verses to the Churches in Revelation and explain what Jesus meant when He said what He said, and we can go from there.

[saved34]

Notice the conditions places in the context your verse is taken from.

With all due respect Onelight, the only condition for overcoming the world in those verses is summed up in vs 4.

1Jn 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith

The keeping of his commandments (not the law of moses) is not a condition, but a way to identify the real from the fake. Our love for each other shows that we are indeed born of God.

1Jn 5:2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands.

1Jn 5:3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

1Jn 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

That little word "For" in vs 4 is the summation of the entire thought. In fact, the Spirit penned it down as if it is an already accomplished fact that we have overcome, because in reality we have through him who loved us.

If one keeps His commandments, they will overcome, or conquer

I challenge you to find that thought in those verses just posted. It does not say that in any of those verses at all, and is quite frankly being forced into the text by you my friend.

If they do not repent and follow Him, they will loose out.

If by "they" you mean unbelievers, then yes I agree. If by "They" you mean born again saints of God, then I wholeheartedly disagree. Even in his chastening of his own, it is the Father showing his love for them, and making sure that they will not be condemned with the world. I'm frankly shocked that you would attempt to rebut such clear scripture as this. Everyone born of God overcomes with no exceptions.

[saved34]

what does 1 John 1:8 say? "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Bro, I am not a Wesleyan . I reject the false teaching of sinless perfection or perfectionism. I still have sin in my own life and need daily cleaning like all saints. I do not know why you would post that scripture as if it contradicts the clear doctrine of the one born of God not practicing sin. To practice sin is to have it as your lifestyle, to take pleasure in it and even justify it if someone tells you the truth concerning it. It is the norm for the one who practices it, where as it is not normal for a Christian to practice sin. Sin in our lives quite frankly makes us weep and cry. As Paul said, "I delight in the law of God in my inner man".

I would rather have you address what is said in the letters of Christ to the Seven Churches in Revelation.

Quite frankly bro, I truly believe you have been sufficiently answered on that matter, but you have rejected them. I am saying this with love, but you have isolated those passages and have formed an opinion against salvation by grace, through faith(not intentially because I know you are a brother in Christ). You have (by holding those scriptures as what you believe to be proof that one can lose or forfeit salvation) denied free Justification. I could go down the long road it would take to answer you verse by verse, but it would take maybe an entirely new thread, and plenty of time. lol I quite honestly don't feel like it, but God may force me to do so.

[saved34]

Yes, the verse reads:

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

The question I ask is what does it mean that He foreknew? I believe that God knew what our choices would be before He predestined us to be like Christ. This does not mean we did not have a choice. It means He knew what our choice would be.

I agree with you to a point, but it is very clear from scripture that "foreknowledge" means more than God just knew you would receive him. God actually had a hand in your salvation and granted you the privilege to believe on him. I know this can get kind of muddy and not to turn this into a Calvinist vs Arminian debate, but there is a truth to both viewpoints. Man must make a choice to accept God's gift, but it is God who calls and gives man the ability to believe on his Son. I cannot explain it because I think it is a mystery beyond our own comprehension.

Php 1:29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,

It is interesting to note that you at least believe those who believe are "predestined" (predetermined by God beforehand) to be conformed to the image of Christ. Scripture speaks of God predetermining Christ to die for our sins, and it happened just as he said it would. This is also true of every born one of God, they will not fail, they may suffer some personal failures here on earth, their feet may get defiled from being in this world, but they are clean because they are washed in Christ's precious blood. God has already determined them to be like Christ, no works or holding out can do this. Only the power of God. When the sinner comes to Christ after hearing the Gospel, his choice is to be with Christ. I can confidently say he will never turn away from Christ.

Let me also add that a believer sinning is not turning away from Christ. A son who goes astray is not turning away from Christ. That is not an apostate and scripture does not teach this. I'm not saying you are teaching this, but I think many are confused to what truly turning from Christ is. They lay the apostasy tag on the wrong people.

1Jn 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

If a believer does sin, he is not aborted or thrown out with the bath water. He does not forfeit his salvation. He has the great advocate who keeps him secure and safe. He has the Father who will lovingly correct him, he has the indwelling Holy Spirit who will give him the victory over the flesh as he yields to him. God has provided us with every Spiritual blessing in Christ.

[Elhanan]

Hi brother Elhanan, I did see your well thought out post, and responded to it, I simply quoted the wrong post. My thoughts jotted down in my most recent post was my answer to your post of trying to make those with no root in them out to be genuinely born again. My question still stands as well, what did Christ mean by "they have no root in them". You and I know that Christ is our root, our anchor, our foundation. What was missing in these particular people that made them not be able to sustain or hold on? If it's simply a matter of endurance, Christ said he holds his sheep and would leave 99 just to bring one who had strayed.Interested in your beliefs as to why they could not hold out and simply fell away.

Your question is a good one but bear in mind that not all details in a parable have equal importance or significance. Also, this is one of the few parables that Jesus himself provides the interpretation for us so it is best to stick with what he actually said rather than speculate on what Jesus might have meant where he didn't see fit to provide the details for us. Bearing those caveats in mind, let's try to address your question. You offer the idea that no root means no root in Christ, therefore this second group of people in the parable of the sower were never believers in the first place. However, in order to remain faithful to the text and consistent in interpretation, the word believe (pisteuo) in this parable is used to describe both the first and second group. Luke 8:12 states that in regards to the first group “they may not believe and be saved.” In regards to the second group Luke 8:13 says “they believe for a while.” Therefore the first group did not pisteuo and were never saved. The second group did pisteuo but only believed for a while. The text specifically says they did not endure and persevere in their belief and thus fell away. Its says they received the word with joy but when persecution/temptation/affliction/testing, they fell away. I believe this parable describes this second group as believers who have a shallow faith - appropriate because their seed germinates in shallow or rocky soil. They initially make an emotional commitment to the word and receive it with joy but because their faith is shallow, when time of testing comes they are scorched, whither and fall away from the faith. That's what the text says and I prefer to let the test speak for itself.

[Saint Stev:-0]

When a person has given their life to Christ Jesus and drift back into whe world ....and not repent ...will they be lost and go to hell

Yes. According to scripture. We must obey the Gospel according 2Thessa. 1:8.

2Thessalonians 1:8

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

What is the Gospel? Death,burial, and resurrection

1Corinthians 15:1-4

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

How do we obey death, burial, and resurrection?

Romans 6:1-8

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

How do we sum all this into 1 salvation?

Acts 2:38

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

God bless : )