The Ten Virgins - What is the parable about? Matt 25

[rollinTHUNDER]

RollingTHUNDER

So are you saying the Rapture of the Church happens after all the earth is in mourning at Jesus Christ Returning. So in essence, We see Him returning, WE mourn, THEN we get Raptured.

Matthew 24:30-31

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If you see the progression, there is no (thief in the night) aspect to the Rapture. No one will know. Wow We see, We Mourn, then We are Raptured. Not Scriptural.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Mathew 24 deals with the second coming of Christ not the Rapture.The two are two separate events.

Hi bopeep,

I agree with the two separate events, but your claim about the second coming is not very convincing.

[rollinTHUNDER]

A good treatment of this prewrath rapture...

The Pre-Wrath Rapture view is clearly fatally flawed. The Pre-Wrath view is correct on the truth that Church Age saints will not experience the wrath of God (1 Thess. 5:9, Rev. 3:10). However, it falsely teaches that God will not be pouring out His wrath in the beginning of the seven years and Christians will experience the Seal Judgments. Revelation 6 plainly states that the Tribulation begins when Jesus Christ initiates and brings the wrath of God on the earth beginning with the seal judgments. The Pre-Wrath view fails to understand that the supposed peace of at the beginning of the Tribulation is not real peace but only a short lived political offering of peace. The political peace does not preclude that God will not be pouring out His wrath in this same period. The Pre-Wrath view has a split view of the rapture with only part of the saints of God raptured and the rest left behind to be raptured later. The Pre-Wrath view also fails to understand that the seven year Tribulation is the conclusion of the Old Testament dispensation that God postponed when Israel rejected Jesus as their Messiah. It ignores that Daniel specifically prophesied that the Messiah would return at the end of the 490 year period which will end with the Lord setting up the Millennial Kingdom He promised the Jews. The Tribulation according to God's word is God purging Israel not "the church." Nowhere in Revelation 4:1 to 19:7 is Church Age saints mentioned. Every reference to believers are those saved during the Tribulation. The reason is clear because Christians in this present dispensation of the Church Age,who are the body and bride of Jesus Christ, are in heaven with Him having been raptured before the seven year Tribulation.

http://bible-truth.org/Pre-Wrath.html

Hi enoob,

Not only is this off topic, but it's also full of assumptions as well.

[enoob57]

A good treatment of this prewrath rapture...

The Pre-Wrath Rapture view is clearly fatally flawed. The Pre-Wrath view is correct on the truth that Church Age saints will not experience the wrath of God (1 Thess. 5:9, Rev. 3:10). However, it falsely teaches that God will not be pouring out His wrath in the beginning of the seven years and Christians will experience the Seal Judgments. Revelation 6 plainly states that the Tribulation begins when Jesus Christ initiates and brings the wrath of God on the earth beginning with the seal judgments. The Pre-Wrath view fails to understand that the supposed peace of at the beginning of the Tribulation is not real peace but only a short lived political offering of peace. The political peace does not preclude that God will not be pouring out His wrath in this same period. The Pre-Wrath view has a split view of the rapture with only part of the saints of God raptured and the rest left behind to be raptured later. The Pre-Wrath view also fails to understand that the seven year Tribulation is the conclusion of the Old Testament dispensation that God postponed when Israel rejected Jesus as their Messiah. It ignores that Daniel specifically prophesied that the Messiah would return at the end of the 490 year period which will end with the Lord setting up the Millennial Kingdom He promised the Jews. The Tribulation according to God's word is God purging Israel not "the church." Nowhere in Revelation 4:1 to 19:7 is Church Age saints mentioned. Every reference to believers are those saved during the Tribulation. The reason is clear because Christians in this present dispensation of the Church Age,who are the body and bride of Jesus Christ, are in heaven with Him having been raptured before the seven year Tribulation.

http://bible-truth.org/Pre-Wrath.html

Hi enoob,

Not only is this off topic, but it's also full of assumptions as well.

My appologies it was directed to OneLight... and off topic I think not! However you may think what you like! Love, Steven

[OneLight]

A good treatment of this prewrath rapture...

The Pre-Wrath Rapture view is clearly fatally flawed. The Pre-Wrath view is correct on the truth that Church Age saints will not experience the wrath of God (1 Thess. 5:9, Rev. 3:10). However, it falsely teaches that God will not be pouring out His wrath in the beginning of the seven years and Christians will experience the Seal Judgments. Revelation 6 plainly states that the Tribulation begins when Jesus Christ initiates and brings the wrath of God on the earth beginning with the seal judgments. The Pre-Wrath view fails to understand that the supposed peace of at the beginning of the Tribulation is not real peace but only a short lived political offering of peace. The political peace does not preclude that God will not be pouring out His wrath in this same period. The Pre-Wrath view has a split view of the rapture with only part of the saints of God raptured and the rest left behind to be raptured later. The Pre-Wrath view also fails to understand that the seven year Tribulation is the conclusion of the Old Testament dispensation that God postponed when Israel rejected Jesus as their Messiah. It ignores that Daniel specifically prophesied that the Messiah would return at the end of the 490 year period which will end with the Lord setting up the Millennial Kingdom He promised the Jews. The Tribulation according to God's word is God purging Israel not "the church." Nowhere in Revelation 4:1 to 19:7 is Church Age saints mentioned. Every reference to believers are those saved during the Tribulation. The reason is clear because Christians in this present dispensation of the Church Age,who are the body and bride of Jesus Christ, are in heaven with Him having been raptured before the seven year Tribulation.

http://bible-truth.org/Pre-Wrath.html

Jesus will return at the last trumpet. Do you disagree with this?

1 Corinthians 15:51-53

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

What I don't like about linking to another persons understanding is that it is more then likely not brought back to scripture to see if it agree to the whole scriptural teaching, but leans directly on the agreement of what someone wrote. It would be just as easy to find someone posting on a web site against anything in scripture. I prefer to do the study myself and gain my understand as He teaches me so I can present my posts from the fruits of my personal study in my own words.

[enoob57]

Jesus will return at the last trumpet. Do you disagree with this?

1 Corinthians 15:51-53

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

What I don't like about linking to another persons understanding is that it is more then likely not brought back to scripture to see if it agree to the whole scriptural teaching, but leans directly on the agreement of what someone wrote. It would be just as easy to find someone posting on a web site against anything in scripture. I prefer to do the study myself and gain my understand as He teaches me so I can present my posts from the fruits of my personal study in my own words.

Yes it is what it says... however connecting it for certain to the trumpet judgments in mid tribulation well that I see is a stretch... what

I do about subjects is to glean as much as I can from Scripture then search the teachers and then commune with God about it... there are a

great many things that I am waiting upon Him to proceed. I do know God says this about ancient paths

Jer 18:15

15 "Because My people have forgotten Me,

They have burned incense to worthless idols.

And they have caused themselves to stumble in their ways,

From the ancient paths,

To walk in pathways and not on a highway,

NKJV

and seeing how the premillenial view dates to the second century understandings of Scripture

I would think one should at least consider this council from God on this... Love, Steven

[OneLight]

Jesus will return at the last trumpet. Do you disagree with this?

1 Corinthians 15:51-53

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

What I don't like about linking to another persons understanding is that it is more then likely not brought back to scripture to see if it agree to the whole scriptural teaching, but leans directly on the agreement of what someone wrote. It would be just as easy to find someone posting on a web site against anything in scripture. I prefer to do the study myself and gain my understand as He teaches me so I can present my posts from the fruits of my personal study in my own words.

Yes it is what it says... however connecting it for certain to the trumpet judgments in mid tribulation well that I see is a stretch... what

I do about subjects is to glean as much as I can from Scripture then search the teachers and then commune with God about it... there are a

great many things that I am waiting upon Him to proceed. I do know God says this about ancient paths

Jer 18:15

15 "Because My people have forgotten Me,

They have burned incense to worthless idols.

And they have caused themselves to stumble in their ways,

From the ancient paths,

To walk in pathways and not on a highway,

NKJV

and seeing how the premillenial view dates to the second century understandings of Scripture

I would think one should at least consider this council from God on this... Love, Steven

I have found that searching other teachers will gain very little in the way of solidifying scripture and a lot more confusion and questions then I started with. I prefer to search scripture itself and allow Him to show me the truth.

Tell me, how may end times trumpets does scripture speak of?

[enoob57]

Jesus will return at the last trumpet. Do you disagree with this?

1 Corinthians 15:51-53

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

What I don't like about linking to another persons understanding is that it is more then likely not brought back to scripture to see if it agree to the whole scriptural teaching, but leans directly on the agreement of what someone wrote. It would be just as easy to find someone posting on a web site against anything in scripture. I prefer to do the study myself and gain my understand as He teaches me so I can present my posts from the fruits of my personal study in my own words.

Yes it is what it says... however connecting it for certain to the trumpet judgments in mid tribulation well that I see is a stretch... what

I do about subjects is to glean as much as I can from Scripture then search the teachers and then commune with God about it... there are a

great many things that I am waiting upon Him to proceed. I do know God says this about ancient paths

Jer 18:15

15 "Because My people have forgotten Me,

They have burned incense to worthless idols.

And they have caused themselves to stumble in their ways,

From the ancient paths,

To walk in pathways and not on a highway,

NKJV

and seeing how the premillenial view dates to the second century understandings of Scripture

I would think one should at least consider this council from God on this... Love, Steven

I have found that searching other teachers will gain very little in the way of solidifying scripture and a lot more confusion and questions then I started with. God has given us human teachers

so thus it is a viable avenue of learning.... I never grow weary of the search for God's truth and I am not in a hurry to conclude but always in a relational form of increased wonder in his Word!

I prefer to search scripture itself and allow Him to show me the truth.

Tell me, how may end times trumpets does scripture speak of?

Better why do these trumpets have to be addressed at all in other Scripture? For God has said

1 Thess 5:2-3

2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

NKJV

and no man is to know not even in God's Word -Note 'Nor The Son'

Mark 13:32

32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

NKJV

seeing how the tribulation is a set 7 years and the trumpets are mid session thus the last trumpet would seem

to negate the truth above... Love, Steven

[Guest]

Sorry I have been absent, I have also been tired, busy, and not feeling at that top of my game. I decided to just sit this one out, at least for a while, and just observe where the topic goes under it's out momentum. I did want to pose a question to enoob though -

what gives us the authority to take a verse that was written 2000 years ago in the present tense, and make it apply indefinelty. Did Jesus say no man would ever know? We cannot say no man will ever know, beause clearly when it happens we will all know. Aslo, what was also not said, was no man knows the time, it says the day or hour, can we really assume that to men no man will ever know the year or the century etc? It takes a lot for granted, espeically after just reading a passage in which Jesus names a number of events that we can look to to gauge when it is getting near. Even on that alone, maybe we cannot say when it will be, but we can say until all the signs are complete, and other events which the bible said would take place first are done, it won't happen before then. Pre-tribbers focus on the idea of imminence, while the bible points out delay, in my opinion.

One of the things that post-tribbers find difficult with the pre-trib perspective, is how many assumptions are made about what verses mean that are a stretch at best, and not the most literal understanding while often at the same time, clame to be the postition that is the most literal.

[gdemoss]

Jesus said:

"But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

Jesus did not say:

"But of that day and [that] hour no man will ever know, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

Jesus illustrated by the flood story explaining that those who walk in darkness have no idea what hit them while Noah found grace in God's eyes and was well prepared knowing 100 years in advance of the coming destruction and was in the know all the way up to the sealing of the door after the animals came into the ark.

In like manner, Paul also has instructed us that we are to know.

1Th 5:1-4 ¶ But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Not too long ago in my past, I was walking in darkness and had no idea what was about to happen. God translated me from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light and I have sought to walk in the light ever since.

In the illustration used in the ten virgins it says that they all slumbered and slept. I truly was asleep in the pew. I have since heard that the bridegroom is coming and have trimmed my lamp and have gone to meet him, watching and waiting for his coming. Occupying until he comes.

I have come to understand that it is pointless to explain to those who walk in darkness that the hour has come and that time to prepare ourselves for his arrival is now as they cannot receive it, the darkness has blinded their eyes and they will be swept away in the flood.

The night is coming where no man can work but as long as he is in the world, he is the light of the world.

[back2thebible]

I feel a bit stupid for not noticing this before, so please forgive me for stating the obvious.

Matthew 25 begins with a parable about ten virgins, 5 wise and 5 foolish. It reads like this:

1"Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2"Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent. 3"For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, 4but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps. 5"Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and [began] to sleep. 6"But at midnight there was a shout, 'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet [him].' 7"Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. 8"The foolish said to the prudent, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.' 9"But the prudent answered, 'No, there will not be enough for us and you [too]; go instead to the dealers and buy [some] for yourselves.' 10"And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut. 11"Later the other virgins also came, saying, Lord, lord, open up for us.' 12"But he answered, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.' 13"Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.

I have often heard, that this parable is about two groups of people, the church, and unbelievers. It is often said the the 5 wise virgins, represent the church, and the bridegroom represents our Lord Jesus at his coming for the church, which I agree with. It is also commonly said, that when the bridegroom, takes the 5 virgins to the wedding feast, that this represents the taking up of the church in the rapture.

What I noticed today, was the fact that the passage begins with the word "then". This word should make us ask the question "When"? To answer that we should look back to what was previously the topic in Matt 24. As originally written, there were no chapter divisions, Matt 25 is just a continuation of Matt 24. If we read it as it was originally written, we would have seen:

48"But if that evil slave says in his heart, My master is not coming for a long time,' 49and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect [him] and at an hour which he does not know, 51and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 1"Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, . . .

So, the answer to our question of "when?" is:

When the master comes and assigns the lazy slave to the place where the hypocrites are and there is wailing and knashing of teeth, THEN it will be comparable to ten virgins. In Matt 24, the topic is clearly not the rapture, but Jesus second coming, His glorious appearing after the tribulation. Also, we see this "wailing and gnashing of teeth language from Jesus, elsewhere in the book of Matthew, chapter 13:

40“So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I don't know about you, but that sounds more descriptive of Hell, that being left behind, which agrees with the context already set in Matt 24.

Similarly we see in Matthew 13:

40“So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

What all of these have in common,is that they are all in the context of what "what the kingdom is like", and again, sounds more like Hell that being "left behind".

Suppose we choose to ignore the "then" that begins Matt 25, could we then suppose that the topic has changed from the revelation of Jesus at the end of the tribulation? Apparently, many do make just such a supposition. However, an ugly problem rears it's head. the rest of Matt 25 is still using the same sort of language and context:

14“For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them. 15“To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey. 16“Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents. 17“In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more. 18“But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.

19“Now after a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. 20“The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, ‘Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.’ 21“His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’

22“Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, ‘Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.’ 23“His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’

24“And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. 25‘And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’

26“But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. 27‘Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 28‘Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’

29“For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30“Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

31“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32“All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

So, it appears that if we keep in context, everything in Matt 24 and 25, speaks to what happens when Jesus comes again in glory, after the tribulation, and sends people into eternal punishment, and we have another example of how verses can be ripped from their contexts, to try to support a pretribulation rapture of the church. Maybe there is one, but it certainly does not seem to be in view in these two chapters.

If you notice the whole teaching of all three of these parables (the faithful and evil servant) (wise and foolish virgins) (parable of talents) Is the same in each parable.............To be prepared, and to be doing the will of God