How to Spot a Legalist

[Steve_S]

Language like "slithering into the side doors of churches" implies some sort of complicit act of subterfuge with ill intent to me, though I admit I could be wrong. At any rate, language such as that aimed at a broad spectrumed group doesn't seem very edifying, especially when that group involves believers that simply need correction.

Whether their act is deliberate subterfuge or not is academic. Whether they propagate their false doctrine with the deliberate aim to lead people astray or because they avidly, but wrongly truly believe it to be true, the end goal of their teaching is the same: Coax people into a works-based salvation instead of true salvation through grace alone. A false teacher needs to be identified, highlighted and isolated as quickly as possible, because we see down through history the ability of false teaching to grow like a cancer if not quickly countered. And as an aside to your next post after this one, I have never seen a dyed-in-the-wool legalist who would accept correction. There are a couple here who have been advocating legalism as long as I have been here and still do so with absolutely no revision on their part.

That's two people on one website, though. That's not really an accurate sample size, and, as I said, forum debating can lead to a skewed impression of the way people act at large because so many people are very set in their beliefs on forums and a lot are seeking debate to sharpen their defense of their views, not necessarily seeking truth. I'm not saying that people teaching legalism shouldn't be removed, either. I'm simply saying that approaching the issue with an accusatory tone is going to make it less likely that someone will accept correction, especially those who aren't in positions of teaching or leadership.

[Sevenseas]

nummm....I'm thinking that you are absolutely right when you say that approaching the issue with an accusatory tone is going to make it less likely that someone will

accept correction.........

unfortunately, I am also thinking that any disagreement (with a legalist) has a better than 85% chance of being seen as an accusation

I just pulled that number out of the air.........much like a legalist's argument from scripture

apparently we don't need a dyed in the wool legalist to toss this thread around...I shall leave it to the experts to settle this thing once and for all...leaves dragging oxygen tank (used to combat bad atmosphere in

threads about legalism)

[Steve_S]

That's two people on one website, though. That's not really an accurate sample size, and, as I said, forum debating can lead to a skewed impression of the way people act at large because so many people are very set in their beliefs on forums and a lot are seeking debate to sharpen their defense of their views, not necessarily seeking truth. I'm not saying that people teaching legalism shouldn't be removed, either. I'm simply saying that approaching the issue with an accusatory tone is going to make it less likely that someone will accept correction, especially those who aren't in positions of teaching or leadership.

I do not believe my post implied that 2 legalists on this forum where the only legalists I have ever encountered. I'm 53 years old, and I have encountered clothes-line preaching, off and on my entire life. The church is rife with legalists and they always cause untold grief and harm, no matter what their intention. Because as the OP says, they chain people to a codified list of does and don'ts, but usually just lots of don'ts that are pet hobby horses. A person stuck in a works-over-grace mindset doesn't care how much damage they do. They just want to stamp out little legalist clones just like them focusing on labeling any behavior they don't like a sin, and with a legalist, that iist grows longer each day. And one does not need to be in a position of teaching or leadership to identify or point out false teaching, and quite frankly, it is that kind of mindset that aids a legalist in spreading their special brand of subtle poison.

I never said someone shouldn't point out false teaching. I merely disagreed with approaching it from any manner that isn't loving and may create defensiveness from the outset. I'm also not saying that there aren't legalists who will never relent, because there are. I believe that approaching it as if none of them has hope of ever being brought into correction on that matter is defeatist and antithetical to the reasoning behind loving correction.

[RedMomma]

Hmm so this is where ya been lately steve lol

now ya know i have to respond here lol

I think that the point is legalism teachings need to be address for it does put folks in condemnation instead of helping them know just what grace is ,Ive read all tinkys posts and i dont think shes being accusative at all i think shes saying what to watch for and theres nothing wrong with that .I am enjoying this thread by all means please carry on lol

[gdemoss]

God's grace is sufficient for all things! How do you know that you have actually received it? You possess it and are able to walk in it and give it unto others. Some have more. Some have less. Paul had a whole bunch and he declared that it enabled him to do far more than the other Apostles did. He warned that we were not to receive the grace of God in vain as well. Sometimes it seems that people don't have very much of it and run out quite quickly when things go wrong, then find themselves going back to God to have to receive some more of the stuff, get a refill. Others seem to have a continuous stream of grace abounding within them.

Every morning I ask for a fresh filling of grace to enable me to stand in the evil day. As concerning the list in the OP, this first one struck me a bit strange:

1) They cheapen grace by focusing on what we must do rather than on what Christ has done.

It is probably just a bit of semantics and misunderstanding the intentions of the original author but the difference between what Christ has done and what we must do is that his works are finished and ours are not.

Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

The difference being that he is the only one who ever made the whole journey without sin. Praise God for his grace! Grace of the blood of Jesus Christ to atone for my past failures, grace of the intercession of Jesus for my failings as I bear my cross, grace to aid me in being able to bear my cross.

Anyone who has ever walked the walk understands that there is nothing more rewarding that being filled with the grace of God that enables you to prosper in times of trouble and weakness. Christ in us the hope of glory.

I am a legalist in one sense of the word. There is one law. The law of Christ. And according to scripture we can fulfill it.

Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

When we see someone struggling to walk the walk, we need only aid them in getting a fresh fill of the enabling grace that will strengthen them from the inside out. Let us share our grace that we have received and walk in with them.

[Hippie333]

You're brave. Put your helmet on

Legalists are tricky creatures. They slither in the side doors of churches, sign up to lead Bible studies and fill the minds of once joyous believers with rules and requirements of what it "really means" to become a Christian. Ask them how a person is saved and they'll say, "By grace of course" and then they'll roll out a scroll across the floor full of checklists to prove your salvation and prerequisites you must abide by in order to receive this "free gift" of grace.

Amen

and some football pads .... AMEN btw!

[Hippie333]

So people are incapable of changing their minds? Because in reality, that happens all of the time. I don't see why anyone would spend time debating anyone else, in a forum, or elsewhere, unless they thought that the other people involved might at least in principle be open to correction- or, your own self. I find it baffling that people would bother to point out the problems with some position at all in that case. Presumably if someone is willing to talk about the issue at all there is a real chance they may be reading and considering what you are saying.

Has your view on homosexuality changed due to debate about it here? Legalism is a deeply-ingrained belief, and deeply ingrained beliefs rarely change because of debate or confrontation. They change either because of direct powerful conviction from the Holy Spirit, or the person who holds the false belief gets injured from the belief so badly that they begin to question the belief itself.

I find it bizarre you keep bringing it up the content from a completely different thread no matter where I post. My views have changed, as a matter of fact, because of multiple discussions I've had with others. More than that, aside from 'merely' converting to Christianity from atheism, (and frankly to my dismay) I find that I'm a lot more conservative in a number of ways than I was a year ago. So if what I do is supposed to be some important indicator of anything, it is clear that people can and do alter their positions in response to discussions with others.

I don't see how bringing (1) subject from another discussion applies here at all - as a witness to Bary's growth and understanding as a Christian, his plight alone shows the ability to discuss things and change the minds and hearts of people. If we come to the table close minded and without love and faith......you are right- nothing will change anyone.....how can we allow the spirit to go to work if we don't.

Jer 32:27 Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

[Steve_S]

I find it bizarre you keep bringing it up the content from a completely different thread no matter where I post. My views have changed, as a matter of fact, because of multiple discussions I've had with others. More than that, aside from 'merely' converting to Christianity from atheism, (and frankly to my dismay) I find that I'm a lot more conservative in a number of ways than I was a year ago. So if what I do is supposed to be some important indicator of anything, it is clear that people can and do alter their positions in response to discussions with others.

Um, the only threads I brought it up in where threads about that issue, and threads you participated in. To say that I "bring it up in every thread" is a big exaggeration. I only bring it up here as an illustration point. Nothing more, nothing less, so you can pull the claws back in and return the victim card to it's proper place in your wallet.

You have not been saved that long, and because of your background, it is going to be totally predictable that your beliefs will change frequently and in a more conservative direction as you discover that what you believed before was false. God makes you open to that change because of continual conviction and because you are still growing, as a Christian. But false doctrine and teaching is insidious and it is incremental. That is why it is so deadly, and is approached by Paul, repeatedly, so strongly. You do not ever allow false teaching and doctrine to gain a foothold un-confronted. People can and do alter their positions on certain things in discussions. But an aberrant belief like legalism, which has been nurtured for years, and is a fundamental mis-understanding when it comes to a bedrock faith foundation, i.e. salvation is almost never going to get fixed in a conversation. The legalist involved in it has been trained that way, (usually) from birth and had practiced it their whole life.

I still don't see it as being impossible to change. Just point blank, you think it's impossible for someone who's been practicing legalism for years to leave that theology? Just for clarification.

[Openly Curious]

=Tinky timestamp='1363625135' post='1931401

But grace that cannot be abused is no grace at all.

What kind of statement is this? It seems to me that it is encouraging others to abuse the grace of God given to them through faith. Because if you can't mistreat grace then it can't be grace because you don't abuse it. I'm not quiet sure but that sounds kind of oxymorrish.

[Hippie333]

I don't see how bringing (1) subject from another discussion applies here at all - as a witness to Bary's growth and understanding as a Christian, his plight alone shows the ability to discuss things and change the minds and hearts of people. If we come to the table close minded and without love and faith......you are right- nothing will change anyone.....how can we allow the spirit to go to work if we don't.

Jer 32:27 Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

It wasn't done with some kind of malevolent ulterior motive.

I didn't realize I didn't have love and faith. Wow. I am mean and lost at the same time.

I encourage you to read what I said a little closer before making the assumption I was attacking you. If you will take note: If we come to the table close minded and without love and faith......you are right- nothing will change anyone - was addressing that "if that is our approach and thought" nothing will change anyone -