7 trumpets=7bowls=7seals

[ibldcars4u]

In my opinion the trumps are the warnings,as they used in wars years ago,but you will not pysically hear them. the bowls/vials is the wrath that will be poured out, and the seals are what you are supposed to have on your forehead (rev 9 vs 4) The seals are taught in Mark 13 example Rev 6 vs 12-13 and Mark 13 vs 24-25 is the 6th seal,the other seals are also in Mark 13 for anyone who might to do a study on them. I also feel in my opinion the 2 witnesses are individuals, will be 2 people maybe teaching the truth,and having the power to make that part of Gods plan to go into affect at that time.

[goldust59]

Ok I just had another thought....maybe just maybe we escape the wrath of God because we are the ones causing it, maybe we are the 2 witnesses that God gives His power to and are able to cause all the plagues, and then because of this we are killed and people rejoice, they wage war on us (tribulation) because of the plagues we are able to give (7 trumpets/7 bowls). When you read through the book of revelations it puts the parts about us right between trumpets 6 and 7 . So, "2 witnesses" cause the plagues, then they are persecuted by the beast which just revealed himself ...."When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them...". Is this really far fetched? Wrath first then the Tribulation? The wrath causes the tribulation? If you notice in chapter 11 that after these 2 witnesses are killed and resurrected there is no more wrath? Just the dead arise then the last trumpet (at the last trumpet, the dead in Christ will rise first, then us who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air). It looks like when the witnesses are resurrected THAT is when the rapture is! Let me know what you guys think! P.S. kind of looks like some of the plagues are already happening, rivers turning like blood, Euphrates river drying up, droughts, locusts, meteors.

uh...no. That thought has been posted in these forums before....the Bible says 2 witnesses...I take it to mean 2 witnesses. As in one.........and another one. Which makes 2.

Respectfully, understanding the revelation of John is not conjecture...just as Jesus gave John the vision, so is He able to give all understanding...but you know, it appears He

has chosen not to do that

You do understand how very old John was and that he had a lifetime of experience and the ability to discern and knew Jesus personally, right? Revelation such as John

had is closed I believe..

But I have a funny feeling they are us given the power to inflict the plagues. I noticed that when these witnesses are resurrected right before the last trumpet, they don't mention any more plagues. No more plagues after they are caught up to the Lord!

The gifts are given for the edification of the body. What you state, would indicate you have some kind of revelatory gift...that is the only way you could state what you do.

However, the revelatory gifts are not for lone ranger prophets or those so young in Christ that they cannot discern.

Can God speak to an individual in a manner concerning their own life? Absolutely...but the revelation has already been given concerning the end times...I am positive that

as things proceed, what is unclear now will, in fact, become clear.....God does things purposefully and in a progressive way....He is not in a hurry

God does things in order....we do not discern by funny feelings or even dreams. There is so much of this type of thing going around and it really is only guesswork

and conjecture.

I understand some people do not want to hear that, however, God does not take shortcuts with people....whether a person dies today or 50 years from now, will not

change how God works one little bit...the Bible says that most people should not desire to teach.and for good reason because that is the bigger responsibility...yet,

that does not seem to dissuade people from declaring that they have heard personally from God and that they dreamt or had a vision.

We are living in the age of deception and I would be amiss to leave out the fact that Christians are absolutely gullible and open for deception...in fact, the more one

peers into the spiritual realm, the more they had better understand that fact. I am probably talking Chinese to some right now

Our way is indicated in the Bible...we are not to follow dreams, signs and visions as these will increase and be an indication of the anti-Christ actually, so a person

really needs to be very careful that what they are listening to and believing is actually scriptural and not just spiritual. Spiritual does not mean it is holy.

I know what is says in the book of Joel. But that is not the only book in the Bible.

I can only warn...I know these words are often unwelcome. However, this is just an online forum....as we go forward, keep in mind that things will become so dark and

heavy with deception, that if you fail to grasp that now, it will be too late then.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

II Tim 4:3

Sound doctrine is not a vision or a dream...it is what is written in the 66 books in our Bibles.

They say to the seers, "See no more visions!" and to the prophets, "Give us no more visions of what is right! Tell us pleasant things, prophesy illusions. Isaiah 30:10

For the time will come - There is a time coming to the Church when men will not hear the practical truths of the Gospel, when they will prefer speculative opinions, which either do no good to the soul, or corrupt and destroy it, to that wholesome doctrine of "deny thyself, take up thy cross and follow me," which Jesus Christ has left in his Church (Clarkes Commentary)..

Feelings are not an indicator of truth....truth reveals error...

All believers have a "relevatory gift". He is the Holy Spirit and revealing what the Word means is one of the things He is in us for.

Dreams, signs, and visions were/are all used by God, so I think we should rely on the Holy Spirit to help us discern between the true and the false of them.

I can agree with your last statement.

[wingnut-]

I typed all that last night at around one AM, so my thoughts were a bit jumbled and I don't think I did a very good job trying to explain everything! Maybe they mention just the witnesses killed in Jerusalem because that is the holy city. I don't know. Maybe they could just be 2 people. But I have a funny feeling they are us given the power to inflict the plagues. I noticed that when these witnesses are resurrected right before the last trumpet, they don't mention any more plagues. No more plagues after they are caught up to the Lord! I will pray some more about this, but this makes my spirit sing with understanding! Unless I am deluding myself! Which could be possible as well! I just see now that revelations is 3 different perspectives of the same events. The perspective using the seals, then using the trumpets, then using the bowls. I will have to re-read it again when I am not so tired. Last night I was going kind of crazy devouring all of it because I was so excited about what I was finding! So next time I get enough sleep I will go through it again with a rested brain! LOL! Maybe there are more people who have come to this conclusion. I find the choice of wording a bit odd when it says "he will make WAR with the witnesses and overcome them" I can't imagine one person making war against just 2 people. That wouldn't really be a war would it? More like a quick murder? I don't know. These are just my thoughts. Enter key still not working! Sorry about no paragraphs again! Thank you guys for your responses! If what I am seeing is correct, this is very very important! I have always been taught as a Christian that it is tribulation first then God's wrath, but it appears to be opposite.

If you think the two witnesses represent more than two people, then you have to acknowledge that the massive amount of people you are talking about won't fit in the streets of Jerusalem. These are two people, not many. Changing the meaning of specifics to fit a theory is not the best way to approach scripture.

[goldust59]

Revelation 11 is where we are told about the 2 witnesses. In the first 2 verses, there is a measuring of the temple. The temple consists of 3 areas and only the inner 2 are measured--- with those that worship there. I believe "those that worship there" ARE the 2 witnesses. Individually, our bodies are temples--- collectively, we are being fit together as the temple of God.

Rev 11:1-4~ And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood(Michael stands up-?)(Daniel 12:1),saying. Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the outer court which is without(outside) the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophecy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

A study of the olive trees will give a clearer picture of who the witnesses are.

[Sevenseas]

Ok I just had another thought....maybe just maybe we escape the wrath of God because we are the ones causing it, maybe we are the 2 witnesses that God gives His power to and are able to cause all the plagues, and then because of this we are killed and people rejoice, they wage war on us (tribulation) because of the plagues we are able to give (7 trumpets/7 bowls). When you read through the book of revelations it puts the parts about us right between trumpets 6 and 7 . So, "2 witnesses" cause the plagues, then they are persecuted by the beast which just revealed himself ...."When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them...". Is this really far fetched? Wrath first then the Tribulation? The wrath causes the tribulation? If you notice in chapter 11 that after these 2 witnesses are killed and resurrected there is no more wrath? Just the dead arise then the last trumpet (at the last trumpet, the dead in Christ will rise first, then us who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air). It looks like when the witnesses are resurrected THAT is when the rapture is! Let me know what you guys think! P.S. kind of looks like some of the plagues are already happening, rivers turning like blood, Euphrates river drying up, droughts, locusts, meteors.

uh...no. That thought has been posted in these forums before....the Bible says 2 witnesses...I take it to mean 2 witnesses. As in one.........and another one. Which makes 2.

Respectfully, understanding the revelation of John is not conjecture...just as Jesus gave John the vision, so is He able to give all understanding...but you know, it appears He

has chosen not to do that

You do understand how very old John was and that he had a lifetime of experience and the ability to discern and knew Jesus personally, right? Revelation such as John

had is closed I believe..

But I have a funny feeling they are us given the power to inflict the plagues. I noticed that when these witnesses are resurrected right before the last trumpet, they don't mention any more plagues. No more plagues after they are caught up to the Lord!

The gifts are given for the edification of the body. What you state, would indicate you have some kind of revelatory gift...that is the only way you could state what you do.

However, the revelatory gifts are not for lone ranger prophets or those so young in Christ that they cannot discern.

Can God speak to an individual in a manner concerning their own life? Absolutely...but the revelation has already been given concerning the end times...I am positive that

as things proceed, what is unclear now will, in fact, become clear.....God does things purposefully and in a progressive way....He is not in a hurry

God does things in order....we do not discern by funny feelings or even dreams. There is so much of this type of thing going around and it really is only guesswork

and conjecture.

I understand some people do not want to hear that, however, God does not take shortcuts with people....whether a person dies today or 50 years from now, will not

change how God works one little bit...the Bible says that most people should not desire to teach.and for good reason because that is the bigger responsibility...yet,

that does not seem to dissuade people from declaring that they have heard personally from God and that they dreamt or had a vision.

We are living in the age of deception and I would be amiss to leave out the fact that Christians are absolutely gullible and open for deception...in fact, the more one

peers into the spiritual realm, the more they had better understand that fact. I am probably talking Chinese to some right now

Our way is indicated in the Bible...we are not to follow dreams, signs and visions as these will increase and be an indication of the anti-Christ actually, so a person

really needs to be very careful that what they are listening to and believing is actually scriptural and not just spiritual. Spiritual does not mean it is holy.

I know what is says in the book of Joel. But that is not the only book in the Bible.

I can only warn...I know these words are often unwelcome. However, this is just an online forum....as we go forward, keep in mind that things will become so dark and

heavy with deception, that if you fail to grasp that now, it will be too late then.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

II Tim 4:3

Sound doctrine is not a vision or a dream...it is what is written in the 66 books in our Bibles.

They say to the seers, "See no more visions!" and to the prophets, "Give us no more visions of what is right! Tell us pleasant things, prophesy illusions. Isaiah 30:10

For the time will come - There is a time coming to the Church when men will not hear the practical truths of the Gospel, when they will prefer speculative opinions, which either do no good to the soul, or corrupt and destroy it, to that wholesome doctrine of "deny thyself, take up thy cross and follow me," which Jesus Christ has left in his Church (Clarkes Commentary)..

Feelings are not an indicator of truth....truth reveals error...

All believers have a "relevatory gift". He is the Holy Spirit and revealing what the Word means is one of the things He is in us for.

Dreams, signs, and visions were/are all used by God, so I think we should rely on the Holy Spirit to help us discern between the true and the false of them.

I can agree with your last statement.

No...all believers do not have a revalatory gift. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are given according to God's discretion and all believers do not have the same gifts.

One of the offices of the Holy Spirit is Teacher...the problem we have occurring today, is that multiples of Christians have jumped on the bandwagon of dreams and

visions, do not have an inkling of what scripture teaches, absolutely refuse instruction or warnings, pay no attention to the fact that there are evil spirits who

are free to seduce any and all that they can (Christians...the world is already deceived) with the result that anyone who says I had a dream is immediately elevated

to super spiritual status and anyone who says 'wait a minute' is told, basically, that the Holy Spirit revealed it to them.

The website that was linked to recently, in which a certain person purported to have ongoing dreams and visions and long chats with Jesus while walking in a field

or hanging out somewhere, is typical of the type of error that passes for spiritual revelation for those who refuse instruction and say that they don't need anyone

because they have the Holy Spirit.

That person, told myself and someone else that we had cursed them and offered a bogus prayer on our behalf supposedly to thwart the wrath of God against us

for daring to question her 'authority' and the fact that Jesus loves her so much.

Do you have any idea of the lies in that statement alone? The gift of prophecy as described in the NT is mainly forthtelling...NOT foretelling....this person is deceived

and is deceiving others. She has been seduced and is seducing others...who have itching ears. The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets...scripture

teaches us to discern and not just accept things...yet people like this false prophet tell you that you have no right to question their authority...and then they dress

up their lies in false love.

The revelation has already been given....there is no more to say...God has already spoken.

Yes, God can and does give a dream or even a vision...but in the nature of what the disciple John experienced....I absolutely believe God makes His will known..

but when the words coming out of someone's mouth fly in the face of scripture...and that woman's false dreams do, plus she says we must not question her,

then you can be assured God has nothing to do with what she sees or hears. Along with the fact that people may have a dream or a vison, are many

many warnings given regarding false dreams and visions and prophecies. It is not wise to ignore that fact, yet it seems that most are ignoring that fact

I know it doesn't matter what I say.....but it does...there are people driving right through stop signs, warning signs, hazard signs, red lights...they just keep going.

I can only warn people....and the reason I do, is because they have ignored every warning already given and so God has people like me come along and maybe

someone will pay attention. Maybe

I understand that these dreams and visions are meat and potatoes to many, but it will prove a poisonous menu in the future.

Whether or not you agree really has no bearing on the truth. What I have stated, you can find in the Bible...it is not my place to convince anyone...only warn.

[wingnut-]

Revelation 11 is where we are told about the 2 witnesses. In the first 2 verses, there is a measuring of the temple. The temple consists of 3 areas and only the inner 2 are measured--- with those that worship there. I believe "those that worship there" ARE the 2 witnesses. Individually, our bodies are temples--- collectively, we are being fit together as the temple of God.

Rev 11:1-4~ And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood(Michael stands up-?)(Daniel 12:1),saying. Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the outer court which is without(outside) the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophecy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

A study of the olive trees will give a clearer picture of who the witnesses are.

You're still not accounting for how all these people would fit in the street, or how every believer on the planet at that time could all gather at one time in Jerusalem. It's not a very large space, and this happens for three and a half years, where do they all stay for this length of time? What do they eat? Logistically it's impossible, unless you insist on ignoring this passage.

Revelation 11:8 Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language, and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

The bible tells us it is appointed once for man to die, so examining all of scripture you will see there are two men that never tasted death, I am expecting them to make their appearance to fulfill this prophecy. This seems much more likely than every believer on the planet gathering for this time period, in one small city that won't hold them, in the midst of persecution and tribulation. Christians today don't unite on anything or have the courage to stand up against peer pressure, do you really see them standing up in the face of evil unparalleled, or is it more likely they will go into hiding?

[J-Andy]

“As I was piecing all this together I was quite shocked by all of it! It finally makes sense to me now! Maybe just maybe God GIVES the 2 witnesses (or us as the witnesses) the power that brings about the trumpets/bowls, they describe the same thing! I think since the waters turn blood red during trumpets and bowls 2 and 3 maybe that is one of the first things the witnesses do.”

(Exo 7:19) And Jehovah spoke to Moses, Say to Aaron, Take your rod, and stretch out your hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their canals, and upon their pools, and upon every reservoir of their waters, that they may become blood. And blood shall be throughout all the land of Egypt, both in wooden and in stone vessels.

Moses the prophet and law-giver, and Aaron the high priest.

The saints were brought into tribulation by Pharaoh and the deliverance of the redeemed was also the judgement of the beast (Pharaoh) and his armies.

I agree with you about the 7th trumpet, 7th seal, etc, because the 7th trumpet and 7th plague/bowl of wrath and 7th seal = 777, which always signifies God's judgement of the world, just as Noah's father, Lamech, was 777 years old when he died, and 7 priests led the Israelite army around Jericho blowing 7 trumpets for seven days, and the walls of Jericho fell on 7th day, the 7th time the priests led the Israelite army around the walls, at the blowing of the 7th trumpet.

The 6th seal and 6th trumpet and 6th bowl of wrath = 666 and has to do with the war of the beast from the bottomless pit against the the Lamb and His 2 witnesses, from what I can see.

Yes, Pharaoh and his armies brought the saints into great tribulation, and yes, God's witnesses were given power to bring plagues upon Egypt; and yes, God's judgement came upon Pharaoh and his armies, and the deliverance of the redeemed became the judgement of Pharaoh and his armies, and vice versa.

If you take the Biblical precedent, the 'two witnesses' do indeed bring the plagues upon the world, and the 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl of wrath (777) = the judgement of the beast and his armies and the deliverance of the redeemed.

The saints in Egypt got away without being harmed by the plagues brought upon Egypt, but they did not get away without being harmed by the great tribulation Pharaoh and his armies had inflicted upon them.

Neither the New Testament nor the Old has ever called God's judgement of the beast and his armies 'the great tribulation'. It is only pre-tribulationists who do so.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Guest 555

[Sevenseas]

I would basically agree with the above 2 posts...I don't know why Christians (well some of them) seem to have the idea we shall just fly up to heaven and avoid it all...that

does not seem to be what Jesus stated

I'll add I never heard the bondage and release from Egypt compared with the tribulation that way...but it makes sense

[wingnut-]

I would basically agree with the above 2 posts...I don't know why Christians (well some of them) seem to have the idea we shall just fly up to heaven and avoid it all...that

does not seem to be what Jesus stated

I'll add I never heard the bondage and release from Egypt compared with the tribulation that way...but it makes sense

The reference to Sodom and Egypt appears twice, in the Revelation passage and also in Jude. I did an interesting study a few years ago on the parallels between the ten plagues and revelation, pretty cool stuff.

[Sevenseas]

Thanks! wingnut...no wonder it made sense to me....but I have not studied Revelation as much as some of the other books ~ lately I have been telling myself to get going on that

Thanks again