The Largest Spectator Sport on Sundays

[~candice~]

I agree Alan. There are only some people who have the gift of teaching. It seems appropriate to me to sit quietly, in order, receiving the teaching. The exercises of other gifts (faith!) and prayer and encouragement do not need to be at the same time as the exercise of the office of teaching. I don't know about others but at my church the encouragement from others tends to be had after the sermon when we gather for morning tea.

[Elhanan]

What you do bring for scripture is what is allowed when the Holy Spirit moves within the body, or within a person. If He is still or silent, then nothing happens unless people do things in the flesh, pretending to be moved by the Spirit.

The point is, for some, it may be a spectators sport, but to many, it is not. They each move in Christ for the purpose of His will. It seems as if you are trying to show that because the gifts are not operating in a church, the church is no more that a game. Is this what you are trying to say?

No, that is not my point. The gifts are just an expression of how each believer uses what God has given to him/her to build each other up. What I'm saying is that meetings including Sunday services should be participatory where each person in attendance has the opportunity to minister to one another. Some in the congregation may be immature or hurting and not able to minister while others have the capacity to do so. Due to the structure of the Sunday service and size of the congregation, that becomes an impractical matter. The order of service does not allow for such activities and there are too many people to do it in an orderly fashion. Instead our services remain clergy focused and clergy driven - much to the exclusion of mutual participation by the laity.

[Guest]

.... Hi nebula - when one stops to consider the number of people who sit in the pews on Sundays versus the number of people who actually do the work of ministry,

Beloved Have You Considered

Perhaps The Pastor Is Equipping The Saints For Their God Given Ministries?

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Ephesians 4:11-12

In Places Like The Home Nursery Or The Neighborhood Or Even The Work Place

Where The "Ordained" Rarely If Ever Venture?

Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. Matthew 22:8-10

Just A Thought Or Two....

[nebula]

Hi nebula - when one stops to consider the number of people who sit in the pews on Sundays versus the number of people who actually do the work of ministry, there is a large discrepancy. Most are there to watch & listen from the pew/chair hence the label "spectator" as opposed to actually being engaged and participating in edifying one another. We attend church to hear an uplifting sermon by one man, stand & raise our hands to uplifting music to preplanned sets of worship songs but if you think about it, just a few people exercise their gifts & abilities on Sundays. That would of course be the church staff as they get paid to do it and the various volunteers in Sunday School, nursery, greeters, etc but even so, they are a distinct minority within the larger congregation. There's an old saying that 20% of the congregation does 100% of the work in the church; the remaining 80% are easy to find as they are always sitting in the pews. Compare how we "do" our Sunday services with Paul's directive given in 1 Cor 14:26 where he says when or whenever we gather, EACH ONE participates and contributes something to the assembly of believers and thus each of us as individuals strengthen & encourage one another other. In essence, everyone is a minister not just the pastor. In our orthodoxy, we are fond of proclaiming the "priesthood of all believers" but orthopraxy falls far short of what we supposedly believe.

Ah!

And a good point.

But I have to ask, whose fault is this? The participants? Or the church leaders? What are the leaders doing to encourage Sunday morning participation?

[OneLight]

What you do bring for scripture is what is allowed when the Holy Spirit moves within the body, or within a person. If He is still or silent, then nothing happens unless people do things in the flesh, pretending to be moved by the Spirit.

The point is, for some, it may be a spectators sport, but to many, it is not. They each move in Christ for the purpose of His will. It seems as if you are trying to show that because the gifts are not operating in a church, the church is no more that a game. Is this what you are trying to say?

No, that is not my point. The gifts are just an expression of how each believer uses what God has given to him/her to build each other up. What I'm saying is that meetings including Sunday services should be participatory where each person in attendance has the opportunity to minister to one another. Some in the congregation may be immature or hurting and not able to minister while others have the capacity to do so. Due to the structure of the Sunday service and size of the congregation, that becomes an impractical matter. The order of service does not allow for such activities and there are too many people to do it in an orderly fashion. Instead our services remain clergy focused and clergy driven - much to the exclusion of mutual participation by the laity.

Thanks for explaining. From the title and choices, that is what I got from your question.

Have you considered what church really is? It is the gathering of believers, be it two or two thousand. Church is not just a gathering in a specific building one day a week. Church can happen at any time two or more people get together in His name, where He is with them.

As for what happens on the day a denomination gathers together, I have seen both ways. One gathering may be more planned; sing a song, hear a word, sing another song, preacher preaches and teaches, another song, then a get together. While another is not; worship that includes singing, a tongue, interpretation, an edification word or word or prophecy, then preaching and teaching, time for specific prayer or council, either as a whole or in smaller groups, more worship, then a gathering for fellowship. The gathering of one day a week is not rubber stamped.

[Elhanan]

That is certainly true onelight as there are midweek Bible studies and small groups, etc. that foster more participation by those involved. However, I think if you asked most people what the main meeting or "main event" of the typical local church is, they would point to the Sunday worship service. I have seen churches that did not emphasize small groups but I have never seen a church to not place an emphasis on Sunday attendance. If anything, the Sunday service is seen as the priority or focus with other opportunities to meet as secondary or optional. Secondly, from the 1 Cor passage I cited it appears that more room or leeway is given to the Holy Spirit to operate within the meeting vs. a planned agenda governed by the schedule of events in the Sunday bulletin. As I stated earlier, that would be impractical to do on Sundays due to size and time constraints. The question is: Is what the apostle Paul writes in 1 Cor 14 26:40 descriptive or prescriptive? And is he just writing to the Corinthian church or all believers universal? I believe he is writing to all believers and churches universal because his salutation in this epistle is addressed as such. I also think that he writes prescriptively as he goes to great lengths to detail what should or should not happen when a NT church meets together. Paul lays down the blueprint or pattern for NT gatherings. If one can accept this as generally true, is it the fault of the people that this does not happen? No, but it should at least cause us to examine whether our practices align with apostolic teaching and practice or whether we are just following man-made tradition.

[OneLight]

I believe that if a certain gathering has developed to home groups, then accountability needs to be continued to ensure that these groups do not go off scripture. Yet, these accountability meetings could be held at any time that is convenient to all involved, not necessarily on the weekly gathering day. I see these larger gatherings as a chance to get together as a whole body, meeting new members and talking with those you have known for some time, but just have a hard time connecting during the week.

You are right about the time constraints of these gatherings. People have done this, not God. I would love to belong to a group that would spend the whole day together, if you chose to remain. Tere is so much that can be done to strengthen the relationships if people spent more time together doing certain activities.

[wingnut-]

When I was searching for a church home several years back I stumbled onto one of the oddest churches to me I've ever attended. Throughout the sermon, members of the congregation would suddenly interrupt the pastor and go into a series of personal experiences or happenings in their life. There was no order, no structure, and by the time I left I couldn't even remember what the sermon was about. I don't know, maybe that works for some people, but not my cup of tea.

[Elhanan]

Yes wingnut that was certainly an odd gathering - probably why Paul goes to great detail about how things should be done decently and in order when we meet as an assembly. And agree with onelight 100% that having the freedom to set aside the day together to encourage one another and just hang out to build relationships is more preferable to me than sitting in the church service and God forbid if the sermon starts going overtime and people start getting fidgety and glancing at their watches (yes, I plead guilty). One more thing that I have often thought about - if, or perhaps more accurately when persecution comes to America and we will no longer be able to meet in public buildings and the saints have been scattered and likely forced underground - have we equipped the saints to "do church" & disciple others on their own without depending on the clergy?

[wingnut-]

Yes wingnut that was certainly an odd gathering - probably why Paul goes to great detail about how things should be done decently and in order when we meet as an assembly. And agree with onelight 100% that having the freedom to set aside the day together to encourage one another and just hang out to build relationships is more preferable to me than sitting in the church service and God forbid if the sermon starts going overtime and people start getting fidgety and glancing at their watches (yes, I plead guilty). One more thing that I have often thought about - if, or perhaps more accurately when persecution comes to America and we will no longer be able to meet in public buildings and the saints have been scattered and likely forced underground - have we equipped the saints to "do church" & disciple others on their own without depending on the clergy?

Is that really the churches job, or does the onus fall on us as individuals to study and know Gods word? Personally I like the smaller type gatherings you refer to, almost like a bible study group. There was a time years ago that I went to a house church, was about twenty people, I enjoyed it very much.