The 144,000 and their duties/Function

[Guest]

I would call the tribulation saints very devout. Maybe some Mormons will really become "Latter Day Saints" A misguided cult making a turn around. Could be possible.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Wouldn't that be awesome, God's grace is big enough, we'll have to wait and see!

[missmuffet]

They are Jews who have received salvation in the Jewish Messiah,Jesus Christ.

[Steve_S]

We can thus conclude that the 144,000 are Jewish evangelists who will be kept secure by GOD as they proclaim the Gospel during the tribulation period, but not the only ones.

This is entirely speculative and I'm operating on the assumption that you're positing a hypothesis. This being taught as fact is not backed Biblically. It's a presumption, not saying that it's a bad one, but only that God's purpose with regard to this particular group is unclear in the scripture. We know they are mentioned prominently and that they are sealed against God's judgements, but that's really all the information we have. Past that it's hypothetical conjecture.

[Montana Marv]

The 144,000 mentioned in Rev 7:1-8 and Rev 14:1-5.

Where did the belief that these 144,000 evangelize the world during the 70th week. It is not in Scripture.

I remember reading it from a pre-trib author when I was a new believer. If I'm not mistaken, I believe it was Hal Lindsey in the Late Great Planet Earth. This belief became popular, since pre-tribbers believed the church is raptured out before the so-called 7 yr. tribulation, some claimed the 144,000 would then evangelize the world. These post-rapture believers would then become either the martyrs who would refuse the mark of the beast or they could try to survive until the second coming and be ruled over by the saints that return with Christ. I still have that book, but it's been many years since I read it (1990), but I believe that was what Hal believed in a nutshell.

But regardless of whether I pegged Hal as the correct author or not, I agree with you that this is not taught in scripture. It's just another false assumption.

Yes, Hal was the one who propigated that view within his books; it may have started before that, I do not know. Was it to enhance his books? Maybe. Kind of like having a special character or circumstance repeat itself in a book to hold your attentiion. But then it became as fact and not fiction. Then it took off

In Christ

Montana Marv

About like the pre-trib doctrine ?

Enoch

And what about the Post Trib doctrine: Rev 9:20 - The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands, they did not stop worshiping demons and idols........

If one does the math. Start out with the "whole", then say removed 1/3 from the "whole" amount: What is left, but "The Rest" of the whole amount. These who are left were those who were not killed by these plagues.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Guest]

I think the idea is, the since most pre-tribbers seem to assume that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, and that He indwells beleivers, and that He goes missing when believers are raptured. Since they realize that there are beleivers in the tribulation, the so called 'tribulation saints', they assume that someone must be witnessing to them, so they invented the 144,000 witnesses, as a speculative answer to that minor problem. Just one of the many assumptions / inferences that have evolved in escapism eschatology.

You know what they say about assuming. "Pre-tribers" don't assume that the Holy Spirit "goes missing" after the Rapture event. Scripture teaches that all believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit to guarantee our salvation. After the rapture event, the Holy Spirit, sometimes called "the restrainer" (since He serves as a restraint upon evil from completely running rampant on the world) no longer seals all believers in salvation but returns to His former role (as illustrated in the OT) of coming upon individuals to help them maintain their faith through the Tribulation. So, He is present during the tribulation period, just not as He is in the Church age. Perhaps you should be more informed before you continue to belittle those who believe the Bible when it literally says that Christ will meet His Church in the air, first the dead in Christ than those who are alive and take us to the "Father's house." We won't be here during any portion of the tribulation. We who believe this don't dump on you because you don't, so you need to quit with the barely disguised condescension.

We can thus conclude that the 144,000 are Jewish evangelists who will be kept secure by GOD as they proclaim the Gospel during the tribulation period, but not the only ones.

This is entirely speculative and I'm operating on the assumption that you're positing a hypothesis. This being taught as fact is not backed Biblically. It's a presumption, not saying that it's a bad one, but only that God's purpose with regard to this particular group is unclear in the scripture. We know they are mentioned prominently and that they are sealed against God's judgements, but that's really all the information we have. Past that it's hypothetical conjecture.

Note that I used the word "conclude." Maybe you should look it up. It's doesn't imply that it is definitive; but that it is what I believe that the Bible teaches, since it is backed by Scripture. Which I posted, by the way. GOD's purpose with this group is clearly illustrated when you look at the Scriptures provided on the subject. Of course, due to preconceived notions and the desire to have scripture agree with what they want to believe, some will refuse to see the obvious, what Scripture clearly demonstrates. And I say -"GOD bless ya." I'm not saying you are doing that, I'm just saying."

[ENOCH2010]

The 144,000 mentioned in Rev 7:1-8 and Rev 14:1-5.

Where did the belief that these 144,000 evangelize the world during the 70th week. It is not in Scripture.

I remember reading it from a pre-trib author when I was a new believer. If I'm not mistaken, I believe it was Hal Lindsey in the Late Great Planet Earth. This belief became popular, since pre-tribbers believed the church is raptured out before the so-called 7 yr. tribulation, some claimed the 144,000 would then evangelize the world. These post-rapture believers would then become either the martyrs who would refuse the mark of the beast or they could try to survive until the second coming and be ruled over by the saints that return with Christ. I still have that book, but it's been many years since I read it (1990), but I believe that was what Hal believed in a nutshell.

But regardless of whether I pegged Hal as the correct author or not, I agree with you that this is not taught in scripture. It's just another false assumption.

Yes, Hal was the one who propigated that view within his books; it may have started before that, I do not know. Was it to enhance his books? Maybe. Kind of like having a special character or circumstance repeat itself in a book to hold your attentiion. But then it became as fact and not fiction. Then it took off

In Christ

Montana Marv

About like the pre-trib doctrine ?

Enoch

And what about the Post Trib doctrine: Rev 9:20 - The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands, they did not stop worshiping demons and idols........

If one does the math. Start out with the "whole", then say removed 1/3 from the "whole" amount: What is left, but "The Rest" of the whole amount. These who are left were those who were not killed by these plagues.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Marv I don't think that is talking about every person in the world, because there is a multitude of people that no man can number, from every nation coming out of the great tribulation. Is that saying the number can't be counted, or is that saying it will be a big crowd. Now days it is possible to count to a pretty high number, what is the population of Earth right now, around 8 billion.

[wingnut-]

After the rapture event, the Holy Spirit, sometimes called "the restrainer" (since He serves as a restraint upon evil from completely running rampant on the world) no longer seals all believers in salvation but returns to His former role (as illustrated in the OT) of coming upon individuals to help them maintain their faith through the Tribulation.

Where in scripture is the Holy Spirit ever referred to as the restrainer? Counselor, yes, comforter, yes, restrainer, not once.

[OakWood]

The 144,000 are all Jeovah's Witnesses according to..... ahem... Jeovah's Witnesses!

[MorningGlory]

The 144,000 are all Jeovah's Witnesses according to..... ahem... Jeovah's Witnesses!

They are SO wrong......!

[Guest]

After the rapture event, the Holy Spirit, sometimes called "the restrainer" (since He serves as a restraint upon evil from completely running rampant on the world) no longer seals all believers in salvation but returns to His former role (as illustrated in the OT) of coming upon individuals to help them maintain their faith through the Tribulation.

Where in scripture is the Holy Spirit ever referred to as the restrainer? Counselor, yes, comforter, yes, restrainer, not once.

Try 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 (NKJV) Although not specifically given the title or name "restrainer," it is intimated here "And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way." Who is "He" who restrains. He is capitalized, meaning part of the GODHEAD. Who is being restrained? That would be the Antichrist. Who restrains the Antichrist until "He" is removed to reveal the Antichrist? I believe it is the Holy Spirit. Who do you think "He' is? Try understanding scripture when you read it instead of looking for ways to challange me at every turn. Your actions towards me are offensive and I wish you would stop. Otherwise I will just ignore you. Be blessed, brother!!