Are people in Heaven?

[Butch5]

Hi butch,

 

Same story again. You are explaining away the Scriptures to favor your own opinion.

 

Try this one for size.

 

KJV

 

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

 

MKJV,

 

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.

 

NET BIBLE,

 

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also we believe that[17] God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep as Christians.[18]

1 Thess 4:14 (NET1)

 

In case you missed it the key words are “bring with Him”

 

 

God bless,

Tony

Hi Tony,

 

I don't see your point. Where does any of this state that man has a spirit that lives on after death? What you posted is speaking of the resurrection.

[Floatingaxe]

 

Hi butch,

 

Same story again. You are explaining away the Scriptures to favor your own opinion.

 

Try this one for size.

 

KJV

 

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

 

MKJV,

 

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.

 

NET BIBLE,

 

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also we believe that[17] God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep as Christians.[18]

1 Thess 4:14 (NET1)

 

In case you missed it the key words are “bring with Him”

 

 

God bless,

Tony

Hi Tony,

 

I don't see your point. Where does any of this state that man has a spirit that lives on after death? What you posted is speaking of the resurrection.

 

 

Maybe you have to ask Holy Spirit to reveal it to you. I see it perfectly clearly in the passage provided.

 

I suppose if you don't want to know the truth, you just won't see it. It does take Holy Spirit to reveal it.

[Butch5]

 

There's no mistake. Paul says nothing about a spirit. He clearly states that he's looking for an immortal body. The idea of a disembodied spirit is being imposed on the passage. The idea that spirits leave the body and ascend into the heavens is from Greek philosophy not the Scriptures. I'll ask again, please show me somewhere in Scripture that teaches that man has this spirit.

 

Yes, you make a grave error in misunderstanding who and what we are!

 

We are spirits who have souls and who live in bodies. Paul knows that, and we should also, because we are made in the likeness of God who is  spirit! Paul is talking about our spirits. He is telling us that we will have an immortal body at the resurrection. Greek philosophy has nothing on God's word!

 

Job 34:14-15 (NLT)

¹⁴ If God were to take back his spirit

    and withdraw his breath,

¹⁵ all life would cease,

    and humanity would turn again to dust.

 

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (NLT)

²³ Now may the God of peace make you holy in every way, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ comes again.

 

 

You cannot ignore that we are spiritual beings. There is a separation between body, soul and spirit.

 

Hebrews 4:12 (NASB)

¹²For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart

 

We see in this passage of Scripture that the soul and spirit can be divided -- and that it is the Word of God that pierces our heart to bring the division of soul and spirit, something that only God can do.

 

 

As human beings, we live eternally as a spirit, we have a soul (mind, will and emotions), and we dwell in a body...

 

Psalm 139:13-14 (NASB)

¹³ For You formed my inward parts;

You wove me in my mother’s womb.

¹⁴ I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;

Wonderful are Your works,

And my soul knows it very well.

 

No, we are not spirits that have  soul and live in a body. You won't find that in the Scriptures. However, you will find it in Greek Philosophy and Gnosticism. I've already shown what the Bible calls a soul. It is a body formed of the ground and the breath of life.

 

⁷ And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:1 KJG)

 

Here is the creation of man. He is composed of the dust of the earth, the body, and the breath/spirit of God. There is nothing else. Solomon said of man and animals, they all have "one" breath/spirit. Well, it can be seen from the Genesis account of creation that that one breath/spirit is God's breath/spirit. If God takes His breath/spirit back and the body returns to dust there is nothing to live one. There is nothing until God resurrects the body and puts His breath back into.

 

Job 34 actually makes my case not yours.

 

In 1 Thes, 5:23 Paul uses language that is common today. How many times have you heard someone say, "I can't catch my breath" does that person own the air they breathe? Is it theirs? Are they chasing their spirit around trying to catch it. Of course not, they say "my" because it is the air they are trying to breath. Likewise, everyone has God's spirit/breath, Paul saying your spirit simply indicate that spirit/breath of God that is in that particular person. It's not uncommon language. In order to make your case you going to have to show where Scripture teaches that man has this spirit. Presenting passage in which you infer it doesn't prove your point.

 

The Hebrews passage is the same. The soul and spirit can be divided. If God's spirit is taken away the soul will die.

 

The passage from the Psalms doesn't even mention spirit.

[Floatingaxe]

 

 

There's no mistake. Paul says nothing about a spirit. He clearly states that he's looking for an immortal body. The idea of a disembodied spirit is being imposed on the passage. The idea that spirits leave the body and ascend into the heavens is from Greek philosophy not the Scriptures. I'll ask again, please show me somewhere in Scripture that teaches that man has this spirit.

 

Yes, you make a grave error in misunderstanding who and what we are!

 

We are spirits who have souls and who live in bodies. Paul knows that, and we should also, because we are made in the likeness of God who is  spirit! Paul is talking about our spirits. He is telling us that we will have an immortal body at the resurrection. Greek philosophy has nothing on God's word!

 

Job 34:14-15 (NLT)

¹⁴ If God were to take back his spirit

    and withdraw his breath,

¹⁵ all life would cease,

    and humanity would turn again to dust.

 

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (NLT)

²³ Now may the God of peace make you holy in every way, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ comes again.

 

 

You cannot ignore that we are spiritual beings. There is a separation between body, soul and spirit.

 

Hebrews 4:12 (NASB)

¹²For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart

 

We see in this passage of Scripture that the soul and spirit can be divided -- and that it is the Word of God that pierces our heart to bring the division of soul and spirit, something that only God can do.

 

 

As human beings, we live eternally as a spirit, we have a soul (mind, will and emotions), and we dwell in a body...

 

Psalm 139:13-14 (NASB)

¹³ For You formed my inward parts;

You wove me in my mother’s womb.

¹⁴ I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;

Wonderful are Your works,

And my soul knows it very well.

 

No, we are not spirits that have  soul and live in a body. You won't find that in the Scriptures. However, you will find it in Greek Philosophy and Gnosticism. I've already shown what the Bible calls a soul. It is a body formed of the ground and the breath of life.

 

⁷ And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:1 KJG)

 

Here is the creation of man. He is composed of the dust of the earth, the body, and the breath/spirit of God. There is nothing else. Solomon said of man and animals, they all have "one" breath/spirit. Well, it can be seen from the Genesis account of creation that that one breath/spirit is God's breath/spirit. If God takes His breath/spirit back and the body returns to dust there is nothing to live one. There is nothing until God resurrects the body and puts His breath back into.

 

Job 34 actually makes my case not yours.

 

In 1 Thes, 5:23 Paul uses language that is common today. How many times have you heard someone say, "I can't catch my breath" does that person own the air they breathe? Is it theirs? Are they chasing their spirit around trying to catch it. Of course not, they say "my" because it is the air they are trying to breath. Likewise, everyone has God's spirit/breath, Paul saying your spirit simply indicate that spirit/breath of God that is in that particular person. It's not uncommon language. In order to make your case you going to have to show where Scripture teaches that man has this spirit. Presenting passage in which you infer it doesn't prove your point.

 

The Hebrews passage is the same. The soul and spirit can be divided. If God's spirit is taken away the soul will die.

 

The passage from the Psalms doesn't even mention spirit.

 

 

Yes, the word of God teaches us we are tripartite beings. Body, soul and spirit---each one of us. The Psalm passage attests to the soul---the mind, and the inward parts refers to the body and the spirit.

 

All other passages I have offered you attest to man having a spirit. Without it, we do die! Any opposition to that is simply moot.

 

 

[Butch5]

Shalom Burch.

 

I am not sure I understand exactly what you are saying.  This is what I have gotten so far from what I have read from your posts:

• You do not believe we have a spirit.
• We are not destined to be in His kingdom, but to rule here on the New Earth.
• We basically "soul sleep" until we are physically resurrected.

Am I correct or am I misunderstanding you?

Hi OneLight,

 

The spirit that we have is God's spirit/breath that is breathed into every living creature. I am saying that when God takes His spirit/breath back there is nothing in a man to live on.

 

We are destined for His kingdom, that Kingdom will be on earth.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by soul sleep. The Scriptures define a soul as a body and the breath/spirit of God. It would seem that when those two are separated there is no more soul to sleep.

When God retrieves His Spirit man is dead and remains dead until God breathes His breath/spirit back into that man at the resurrection.

[Floatingaxe]

 

Shalom Burch.

 

I am not sure I understand exactly what you are saying.  This is what I have gotten so far from what I have read from your posts:

• You do not believe we have a spirit.
• We are not destined to be in His kingdom, but to rule here on the New Earth.
• We basically "soul sleep" until we are physically resurrected.

Am I correct or am I misunderstanding you?

Hi OneLight,

 

The spirit that we have is God's spirit/breath that is breathed into every living creature. I am saying that when God takes His spirit/breath back there is nothing in a man to live on.

 

We are destined for His kingdom, that Kingdom will be on earth.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by soul sleep. The Scriptures define a soul as a body and the breath/spirit of God. It would seem that when those two are separated there is no more soul to sleep.

When God retrieves His Spirit man is dead and remains dead until God breathes His breath/spirit back into that man at the resurrection.

 

 

Yes, we will be given bodies at the resurrection that will be useful for our time on earth when we rule and reign with Jesus Christ. Those who have died in Christ don't need them at the moment, for they are with Christ in their spiritual bodies.

 

You are futilely trying to oppose the simple scripture that tells us---promises us---that in Christ we never die! So, how can you say we remain dead until the resurrection? No---my physical body returns to dust, but I will live forever in Christ.

[Butch5]

 

 

Shalom Burch.

 

I am not sure I understand exactly what you are saying.  This is what I have gotten so far from what I have read from your posts:

• You do not believe we have a spirit.
• We are not destined to be in His kingdom, but to rule here on the New Earth.
• We basically "soul sleep" until we are physically resurrected.

Am I correct or am I misunderstanding you?

Hi OneLight,

 

The spirit that we have is God's spirit/breath that is breathed into every living creature. I am saying that when God takes His spirit/breath back there is nothing in a man to live on.

 

We are destined for His kingdom, that Kingdom will be on earth.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by soul sleep. The Scriptures define a soul as a body and the breath/spirit of God. It would seem that when those two are separated there is no more soul to sleep.

When God retrieves His Spirit man is dead and remains dead until God breathes His breath/spirit back into that man at the resurrection.

 

 

Yes, we will be given bodies at the resurrection that will be useful for our time on earth when we rule and reign with Jesus Christ. Those who have died in Christ don't need them at the moment, for they are with Christ in their spiritual bodies.

 

You are futilely trying to oppose the simple scripture that tells us---promises us---that in Christ we never die! So, how can you say we remain dead until the resurrection? No---my physical body returns to dust, but I will live forever in Christ.

 

Dude, I'm the one showing the creation of man and that he doesn't have this spirit you claim. I've asked repeatedly for you guys to show me where Scripture teaches that man has this spirit and as of now neither of you has made an attempt to prove this spirit from Scripture, you've simply presumed it exists. Now's your chance to make you case, show us where Scripture teaches that man has another spirit that lives on after death.

 

It's not I who is opposing the Scriptures, you've not addressed what I presented.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Butch5

[asper]

Hi butch,

 

Man does have a spirit, but ther is no way your going to understand it.

 

Here are the obvious verses

 

Ro 1:9  For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

 

Ro 2:29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

Ro 8:16  The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 

1Co 2:11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

 

1Th 5:23  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

2Ti 4:22  The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen.

 

Phm 1:25  The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.

 

Heb 4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

 

Many including myself have shown to you verses showing that we would be in heaven when our bodies die but you make light of it then just present your opinions as facts when indeed they are not.

 

God bless,

Tony

[enoob57]

 

Shalom Burch.

 

I am not sure I understand exactly what you are saying.  This is what I have gotten so far from what I have read from your posts:

• You do not believe we have a spirit.
• We are not destined to be in His kingdom, but to rule here on the New Earth.
• We basically "soul sleep" until we are physically resurrected.

Am I correct or am I misunderstanding you?

Hi OneLight,

 

The spirit that we have is God's spirit/breath that is breathed into every living creature. I am saying that when God takes His spirit/breath back there is nothing in a man to live on.

 

We are destined for His kingdom, that Kingdom will be on earth.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by soul sleep. The Scriptures define a soul as a body and the breath/spirit of God. It would seem that when those two are separated there is no more soul to sleep.

When God retrieves His Spirit man is dead and remains dead until God breathes His breath/spirit back into that man at the resurrection.

 

We are instructed to build with Scripture's truth- precept upon precept- line upon line ...

this you ignore 2Cor 5:8  in order to keep that which you have built... There is no

presence in that which is not!!!   Love, Steven

[Butch5]

 

 

Shalom Burch.

 

I am not sure I understand exactly what you are saying.  This is what I have gotten so far from what I have read from your posts:

• You do not believe we have a spirit.
• We are not destined to be in His kingdom, but to rule here on the New Earth.
• We basically "soul sleep" until we are physically resurrected.

Am I correct or am I misunderstanding you?

Hi OneLight,

 

The spirit that we have is God's spirit/breath that is breathed into every living creature. I am saying that when God takes His spirit/breath back there is nothing in a man to live on.

 

We are destined for His kingdom, that Kingdom will be on earth.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by soul sleep. The Scriptures define a soul as a body and the breath/spirit of God. It would seem that when those two are separated there is no more soul to sleep.

When God retrieves His Spirit man is dead and remains dead until God breathes His breath/spirit back into that man at the resurrection.

 

We are instructed to build with Scripture's truth- precept upon precept- line upon line ...

this you ignore 2Cor 5:8  in order to keep that which you have built... There is no

presence in that which is not!!!   Love, Steven

 

Precept upon precept. You haven't shown the first one yet. All you've done is continue to post the same verse. Show me anywhere in that passage where Paul says that man has a spirit that lives on after death. I'm not one who's doing the ignoring. You haven't yet addressed the evidence that I've presented. Just because you think the verse means something that doesn't mean it does. Unless you can show from Scripture how it means what you claim you're just giving opinion.