Why no unity?

[GoldenEagle]

A reminder to everyone... Tos paraphrased...

 

Respect each other in the love of God! It is possible to disagree on a subject or doctrine without insulting the person you are discussing with. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are insulting you as a person.

 

God bless,

GE

[Guest shiloh357]

I didn't apologize because you attacked first and what I said was right.

 

But I clarified what I meant and even Goldeneagle tried to show you that I was not attacking you.  You perceived an attack and didn't wait for an explanation or clarification and even when I tried to make clear that I didn't attack or accuse you, you simply ignored that because you prefer to hold on to a perceived insult rather than actually trying to seek unity and understanding.

 

 

What I posted was accurate to the best of my understanding. Instead of speaking to me from a position of love you condemned me as intentionally twisting scripture to promote a disunity that was not there.

That's what you said.

That is not true.  I NEVER accused you of intentionally twisting Scripture and you can not post any words of mine to that effect.  In fact, I never said you twisted Scripture even in an unintentional way.  That is a value that you assigned to me.  You decided to paint my words in a way that I did not intend them to be understood.

 

 

 Twisting scripture to fit your own agenda is Satan's work. If you are going to accuse me of doing Satan's work, then I am going to respond

 

Well I never said that you were doing Satan's work, so you really have nothing to be angry with me about.   Again, you are attributing things to me that are simply not true of me and evidently, no clarification or attempt to restate what I said is going to change your mind because it appears you feel a need to hang on to your intitial feeling of being offended.

 

You say I handle scripture poorly. According to whom? According to you? Well, lucky for me your opinion means nothing. All that matters is what the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings, my Savior thinks of me, which is Jesus Christ. Every time you  post it's with all this knowledge and no love.

 

Wel,l that claim is true and I demonstrated that by showing you the context of the verses you cited. Lots of people grab individual verses and string them together like lights on a Christmas tree.  That is not the proper way to handle Scripture.  They are "twisting" Scripture, but they do inadvertantly, because no one has taught them anything different, arrive at wrong conclusions because of mishandling Scripture that way.   They have not been taught the basic interpretative methods which includes always examining context.   Doesn't make them bad people, but it does make for bad theology.

 

Instead of responding to substance, of my post and engaging my response, you resort to lashing out at me.  What I post with is honesty.   I am giving you honest answers to the questions you post and I am being honest with you about your conduct toward me even when I try to smooth things out and try to show that I am not attacking you.  You are the one bearing the grudge. How is that love coming from you?

 

Reminds me of the verse. Knowledge puffs up but love edifies. This is twice you have accused me of doing Satan's work. Before you say that's not what you said. Yes it is. If you are say I twist scripture to fit my agenda, then you are saying I am doing Satan's work.

 

No, that is what you have to tell yourself in order to justify your anger towards me.  If I didn't really accuse you of doing Satan's work, then you really have no beef with me and are forced to deal with the substance of my responses, and evidently you would rather demonize me and play the victim card against me, as if I am mistreating you.  

 

You give no allowance that not everybody has a degree in the bible. According to you, someone like me is stupid and worthless because I have no degree and my exegesis is not up to your standard. But all that is ok.

 

That is not fair, as I have never said that or even thought that about you or anyone else.  Again, that is a value that you are projecting on to me to justify this irrational and unwarranted anger toward me.  You are lobbing false accusations at me and then have the audacity to ask why there is no unity in the body of Christ.   Can you not see the moral contradiction in your call for unity and your disunifying behavior???

 

I have been called trash my whole life. That's how you treat me, like since I don't meet your standard, then I'm trash.

 

Show me ONE place where I have treated you like trash.  I have addressed your arguments, not you.  I have not done anything you have accused me of and I defy you to copy and paste where I have done anything to treat you like trash.

 

It couldn't possible be that I am trying with a pure heart to learn and draw closer to Jesus. No that couldn't possible be it. You judged me then as you just did in your response. As for the immature attitude on display....Maybe your the one who should look in the mirror.

 

I am not the one lashing out and making false accusations and playing the victim.  That is all you.  I have been endeavoring to clarify my statements to show you why I nothing I have said is an indictment of you as a person, nor have I said anything to belittle you.  You are reading those things into my posts and it is an unfair and unwarranted accusation against me.

[Guest shiloh357]

I can't accept the notion that the only thing keeping us from coming to unity is pride or spiritual issues.  Even the most educated people disagree over major doctrinal positions.  The people who started the churches most people attend didn't agree on doctrine.  You have Calvin, Luther, and Wesley, and you can trace most of the churches back to them, and they are completely different in what they teach.  Then you have a multitude of splits that took place with modified doctrines based on their original teachings.  I suppose there are some people that simply put their faith in a church, but there are sincere Christians that just don't see eye to eye when they read the same passages.  I don't think you can judge someone's heart, just because there is disunity? 

 

Lets look at this for just a moment.  There are three people here, and none of us agree.  All three people believe they are right, so how do they come into unity?  The only way they can do that is if two decide the other person is right on all points, and they may never believe that in their heart? 

You have can three peopple with different doctrinal beliefs on certain issues and those differences can be for a variety of reasons.  There are various factors that have to be taken into account.

 

Unity in doctrinal matters doesn't necessarily mean that we will unity in terms of relatating to other people in the body of Christ.  You can have a group of likeminded believers who are at each other's throats over other things.  Most churches don't split over doctrinal disunity.  They usually split over issues related to Church policy or politics.  There is usually one group that wants to control everything the church does, that vies for all of the levers of power and tries to either limit spending or they spend more than the church can afford.  Most of the disunity I see is not interdenominational.  Most of the disunity I have seen occurs internally in local congregations. 

 

In the Scriptures, Paul didn't have denominations to contend with, so you cannot  apply denominational differences to Paul's letters.  He simply wasn't thinking in those terms.  Paul was calling for unity within specific congregations, like the church at Corinth.   Paul was not complaining that the Corinthians were not getting along with the Galatians.  His complaint centered around internal strife and conflict within the Corinthian church.  

 

The denominational paradigm didn't exist in the first century and so it is violation of historical propriety to apply Paul's statements to a modern setting under conditions that didn't exist in Paul's day.   One important rule of interpretation is that a Scripture cannot mean today, what it didn't mean when it was first penned.

[Thaddaeus]

Butero,

 

In reading back on other's posts I noted this statement you made in post #160 which I need to clarify.

 

 

 

I would love to see 100 percent, absolute unity on everything, but I don't believe that has ever been achieved?  We do have one person who gave us a method of obtaining unity over most doctrine.  That is by joining with the Orthodox Church, where only the leadership decides what is right and what is wrong, and nobody is supposed to question it?  The Catholics have the Pope as the final person deciding right from wrong?  The only way to get the kind of unity you are seeking is for everyone to stop thinking for themselves, and put all their trust in one leader.

 
The Leadership of the Orthodox Church does NOT decide what is right or wrong. The Holy Spirit gave it originally and then guards that deposit through the Body to preserve it. It is the Body, enlived by the Holy Spirit that determines right and wrong.  Someone referred to Acts 15 and the Council at Jerusalem where the Apostles as the foundation of the Church deterimed what was correct regarding circumcision of Gentiles and James in making the final summation indicated it was right with the Holy Spirit.  That method has been the basis for all councils whether local, regional or Ecumenical throughout history.

 

First, the leadership, which are the Bishops, are empowered by their ordination to protect, to promulgate the Gospel as it was originally given. They have no authority to unilaterally change that Gospel, though many have tried, but each was declared a heretic by trying to impose their own interpretation upon that Gospel.

 

When a false teaching becomes a deep thorn in the Body, it is the Body, first through the Leadership, the Bishops that will either in local councils but also in Ecumenical Councils declare a particular teaching heretical.  But it is still the Body that will determine by accepting or rejecting the Councils determinations.

 

There is an adage that if it has not been believed from the beginning, by everyone, everywhere, it is a false teaching. This is why it is quite easy today to determine a false teaching if one cannot find it taught and believed from the beginning. All  teachings that bear a man's name as the originator immediately makes it a false teaching.

[Faithful]

Wow...I wish I had time to read more closely things that were said here. I think this is an excellent topic you have chosen. I too don't get how there is so much division but some of the answers given make sense and some my own pastor gives. I need to get going but just wanted to say and maybe it has already been said, but just wanted to say that my perception is that in scripture we are told to be increasing in our love for one another and that really doesn't appear to be the case. I think the persecution answer is very much on target. I also think they are tares mixed in with the wheat and God doesn't want the wheat destroyed so they are allowed to remain for the time being but when the tares mature their fruit makes them evident. Fruit in my observation of scripture is really the litmus test. All the signs and wonders and miracles Jesus said some that did these he will call workers of iniquity and to depart from Him as He never knew them. What does good fruit look like?.....fruit is simple not complicated.....as the scripture says we can understand all mysteries etc. etc. ....give our body to be burned....have all faith as to move mountains...give everything we have away but if we don't have love it doesn't profit.....love prefers others...love takes into account the conscience of another person....that is another example of disunity of mind really that Paul said would exist but told us how to deal with it....I understand not everything is simple as not eating meat offered to idols but I do believe there is some foundational principle in the teaching...you would think that giving all you had to the poor and giving your body to be burned would be positive proof of love but the scripture doesn't attest to it being so.....I personally can relate and I think we all can to people doing something for you for the wrong motive that became evident later with their attitude...I think Jesus always was taking the complicated tangled theological messes and simplifying them with....He said that on the first two commandments hung all the law and the prophets and said that we are to love God and our neighbor.....Paul said the same then quoted some of the ten commandments that really are just more practical insight into the second commandment and then added and if there be any other way you can hurt your neighbor don't do it....I believe that is in Romans.....these are just my thoughts....I'm way behind the 8 ball in debating as I observe most of you have years of study behind you by the wealth of information you contribute which I think is wonderful that you all study as we are told to in scripture....the main point I would like to make that we have a "heart" religion as John Wesley spoke of and not just a mind religion....in fact, I think being of one mind has more to do with Spirit led truth than us using our carnal mind.....I truly believe God uses our thinking process but I don't believe you can figure out God or His Word that it is a matter of study and God revealing the truth to you along the way....we are told to have the mind of Christ but really I think that has more to do with a change of heart that produces right thinking, speaking, and acting as scripture makes it clear in Matthew from the abundance of the heart and murders,ect. (behavior) comes from the heart and as James 3 says that if a man can control his tongue he can control his whole body....yet we are also asked the rhetorical question who can tame the tongue as it is a deadly poison....I think it is interesting the scriptures about the tongue and that we pray in "tongues" by the Holy Spirit...."as a man thinks in his heart (mind) so is he" as it says in Proverbs....I don't have time to develop my thought here...but I do believe the Parable of the Sower and the Vine are really what it is all about.....it has always been about the heart....unfortunately, most of my life the focus I have heard preached has been on "sin" that has nothing to do with being defined as a failure to love but that is not what Jesus said.....well, sorry, I got carried away and instead of editing started writing again....wooops......

Edited August 26, 2013 by Faithful

[Faithful]

Okay....I'm really going...lol....one more thing I 'd like to add that I think is foundational to this topic is Ephesians 3:14-19 and in particular verse 16 that speaks of being strengthened in the inner man by the Spirit, verse 17 that speaks of Christ dwelling in our hearts by faith being rooted and grounded in love (again, thinking of the parable of the vine and the sower), and verse 19 that speaks of the love of Christ that passes knowledge that we might be filled with what?....with ALL the fullness of God. Think on that for a minute. If you are full of God, what are you going to produce? division....nope....then chapter 4 of Ephesians talks about the perfecting of the saints....Paul says in another verse "til Christ be formed in you".....Romans 12:2 talks about being transformed by renewing our mind....but mind and heart to me are inseparable in scripture.....my point is that transformation is a process....maturation is a process and the body is in that process individually so then it must be also corporately as well.....vs. 13 where I left off says till we ALL come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ....that we henceforth be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every "wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, where by they lie in wait to deceive....but speaking the truth how? in love may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compancted by which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of  the body unto the edifying of itself in love.......oh snap....how many times is the word love mentioned here in connection with maturity?.....further down we are told to put of the old man and put on the new that our understanding when dark we will be alienated from the life of God by the blindness of our what? our heart.....there is another verse I'd have to look it up that connects love with being holy and blameless.....you get my point.....as I believe....the whole topic has to do with maturing in love.....THE END...

[Faithful]

Meditating on this one some more.....I also recall Paul giving instructions that they were to toss out those who could not be corrected from heresy after the first or second admonition....which leads us I guess back to square one....what is heresy?....but really more than that, why is heresy?.....heresy can only exist from someone who has been deceived....we know we can be deceived according to James chapter two by not obeying the truth we have....when you look in the Word, the mirror that holds Christ reflection and you refuse to change....that is disobedience and what is disobedience but sin ....and what does sin do?....it hardens the heart according to scripture....so we are back to the heart.....do we judge people by the heart?.....do we judge at all?.....that is another can of worms but Paul said in one letter of his to remove that "wicked" person from among you....another case Paul instructed the church to turn a person over for the destruction of the flesh....again, we see the motive is restoration....I think simply put the problem is again...there is no longer "one" church physically as there was back in the early church and I say that based on my knowledge which I haven't studied church history well enough I confess....I think it is vital to study the first 300 years of the church....but at the same time, the parable of the vine I keep coming back to is essentially I believe telling us that the vinedresser is God the Father and He will tend His vine....I think when it comes to knowing the truth and helping others to see the truth that the scripture plainly says the Spirit of Truth would lead us into ALL truth but how does He do that?....individually and corporately....Paul said as many as led by the Spirit of God these are the sons of God....I just added to an old post on here about the Urim and Thummim and how I feel like I need an 8 ball I can shake because I honestly don't know that I hear too good. So continuing to go in circles I would say it boils down to hearing God and knowing you have heard from God and this is by the Spirit whether individually or corporately....the Word of God itself without the Spirit isn't going to clear things up...we need illumination....that only comes from God....but God resists the proud and that goes back to disobedience....why would He bother to instruct those who aren't going to obey anyway.....I do believe the scripture makes it pretty plain the do's and the do not's so that and praying and obeying and trusting is my target....I'm glad God knows that I am a dumb sheep and knows without Him I don't have a clue is my final thought for the time being.....

[Faithful]

Jesus said, if we continue in His Word we are truly His disciples and will know the truth and the truth will set us free and He said He was the Way, the Truth, and the Life ....sounds like a process to me but thanks be to God that Jesus Himself is the truth and that means truth is relational. 

[OneWithGod]

 

 

 

One of the biggest reasons there is no unity in today's churches, is because the devil and man has changed the meanings of all the TERMS in God's Word.

 

The devil, with the help of man's sinful desire to believe lies has turned God's Truth into lies - Just like the devil did in the beginning with Adam and Eve.

 

The best deceptions are the ones that are mostly truth with a small amount of changes to that truth.

 

"Saved" does not mean what most Christians think it means.

 

"Born Again" does not mean what most Christians think it means.

 

What happens at "Justification" is not what most Christians think happens then.

 

Being a "son of God" does not look like or mean what most Christians think it looks like or means.

 

"Sanctification" does not happen the way or mean what most Christians think.

 

"Eternal Life" is not what most Christians think it means.

 

"God's Kingdom" does not happen or materialize like most Christians think.

 

"Christ's Return" does not happen like most people think.

 

And the list can continue, because most have refused to love God's Truth, so God has sent them an elusion - so that they would believe what they want to believe and be condemned by their love of evil instead of loving God's Truth with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength.

 

2 Thess 2:10-12 - They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.  NIV

 

This is what is happening in our world today and this delusion has been building for hundreds of years as the selfishness and evil has taken stronger holds in "Christian" beliefs. The lies and deception are not new, but have been constantly growing to meet the demands of the increase in wickedness in God's so called people. Now these lies have become "truth" and part of the churches traditions - they now take the place of God's Truth.

 

There is one major delusion that all the lies come together to support. All TERMS and understandings have been changed to support this one main delusion. It is only the selfishness/evil of man that keeps this main delusion alive - because most refuse to believe and love the real Truth of God.

The scripture you provided as reference to why you believe this way is not talking about today, but the time after the lawless one is reveled. Let's look at these verses in context.

2 Thessalonians 2:5-12

Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

What you have described is what most people believe, but only because they are unwilling to look at the "lawless one" inside of themselves. This passage is actually describing the struggle of good and evil inside the person being sanctified. It is not about a future devil or lawless one.

 

What I posted was scripture and scripture does not say the lawless one has arrived yet nor that he lives in any believer. God lives in every believer and we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. You are trying to "spiritualize" scripture just as the Gnostic believers did, where they were proven to be false.

 

If a person is still sinning against God's known will, then the lawless one is still within them. The lawless one is the selfish nature all men are born with.

 

A believer will not sin against God's Truth (Word), otherwise they are not really believing in God's Truth (which is Christ), but is still believing in one or more lies. A person cannot believe in God's Truth and then sin against that belief of the Truth. This is a spiritual impossiblity.

 

No matter what a person says they believe, they will always show what they really believe by their actions.

[firestormx]

 

It appears you are trying to manufacture the appearance of disunity and what is worse you are mishandling the Bible and using very poor exegesis in the process.  Anyone can grab some Bible verses and string them together to make the Bible say what they want it to say.  You need to examine context a lot better and get a clearer understanding of the verses you are using to make sure they actually address the issue you are trying to apply them to.

 

 

 

I will show you where you attacked me first. See the above in blue? This is about me and not the subject. This is an attack on me and not debating the subject. The very first line is where you say I twist scripture. By saying I am " trying to manufacture the appearance of disunity and what is worse you are mishandling the bible "   You are saying I am twisting scripture to fit my own agenda. Twisting scripture is Satan's work. That is your accusation in the above.

 

 

 

 

I didn't apologize because you attacked first and what I said was right.

 

But I clarified what I meant and even Goldeneagle tried to show you that I was not attacking you.  You perceived an attack and didn't wait for an explanation or clarification and even when I tried to make clear that I didn't attack or accuse you, you simply ignored that because you prefer to hold on to a perceived insult rather than actually trying to seek unity and understanding. You never apologized for attacking me, which you did by making it about me and not the subject.

 

 

What I posted was accurate to the best of my understanding. Instead of speaking to me from a position of love you condemned me as intentionally twisting scripture to promote a disunity that was not there.

That's what you said.

That is not true.  I NEVER accused you of intentionally twisting Scripture and you can not post any words of mine to that effect.  In fact, I never said you twisted Scripture even in an unintentional way.  That is a value that you assigned to me.  You decided to paint my words in a way that I did not intend them to be understood.

 Yes you did see above.

 

 Twisting scripture to fit your own agenda is Satan's work. If you are going to accuse me of doing Satan's work, then I am going to respond

 

Well I never said that you were doing Satan's work, so you really have nothing to be angry with me about.   Again, you are attributing things to me that are simply not true of me and evidently, no clarification or attempt to restate what I said is going to change your mind because it appears you feel a need to hang on to your intitial feeling of being offended. Once again, yes you did, see above.

 

You say I handle scripture poorly. According to whom? According to you? Well, lucky for me your opinion means nothing. All that matters is what the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings, my Savior thinks of me, which is Jesus Christ. Every time you  post it's with all this knowledge and no love.

 

Wel,l that claim is true and I demonstrated that by showing you the context of the verses you cited. Lots of people grab individual verses and string them together like lights on a Christmas tree.  That is not the proper way to handle Scripture.  They are "twisting" Scripture, but they do inadvertantly, because no one has taught them anything different, arrive at wrong conclusions because of mishandling Scripture that way.   They have not been taught the basic interpretative methods which includes always examining context.   Doesn't make them bad people, but it does make for bad theology.

 

Instead of responding to substance, of my post and engaging my response, you resort to lashing out at me.  What I post with is honesty.   I am giving you honest answers to the questions you post and I am being honest with you about your conduct toward me even when I try to smooth things out and try to show that I am not attacking you.  You are the one bearing the grudge. How is that love coming from you? I haven't seen an ounce of love from you either.

 

Reminds me of the verse. Knowledge puffs up but love edifies. This is twice you have accused me of doing Satan's work. Before you say that's not what you said. Yes it is. If you are say I twist scripture to fit my agenda, then you are saying I am doing Satan's work.

 

No, that is what you have to tell yourself in order to justify your anger towards me.  If I didn't really accuse you of doing Satan's work, then you really have no beef with me and are forced to deal with the substance of my responses, and evidently you would rather demonize me and play the victim card against me, as if I am mistreating you.  You did accuse me of doing Satan's work, see above.

 

You give no allowance that not everybody has a degree in the bible. According to you, someone like me is stupid and worthless because I have no degree and my exegesis is not up to your standard. But all that is ok.

 

That is not fair, as I have never said that or even thought that about you or anyone else.  Again, that is a value that you are projecting on to me to justify this irrational and unwarranted anger toward me.  You are lobbing false accusations at me and then have the audacity to ask why there is no unity in the body of Christ.   Can you not see the moral contradiction in your call for unity and your disunifying behavior??? Maybe not fair, but true.

 

I have been called trash my whole life. That's how you treat me, like since I don't meet your standard, then I'm trash.

 

Show me ONE place where I have treated you like trash.  I have addressed your arguments, not you.  I have not done anything you have accused me of and I defy you to copy and paste where I have done anything to treat you like trash. Every one of you posts comes across as condescending. Like your just looking down your nose at everyone else.

 

It couldn't possible be that I am trying with a pure heart to learn and draw closer to Jesus. No that couldn't possible be it. You judged me then as you just did in your response. As for the immature attitude on display....Maybe your the one who should look in the mirror.

 

I am not the one lashing out and making false accusations and playing the victim.  That is all you.  I have been endeavoring to clarify my statements to show you why I nothing I have said is an indictment of you as a person, nor have I said anything to belittle you.  You are reading those things into my posts and it is an unfair and unwarranted accusation against me. Yes you are, see above.

 

 

 

You are the one who made this personal, about me and not the subject. But on the subject for moment. I really haven't thought about original Sin much. The questions I asked before were real questions I had in my mind. You don't think I understand there are people on this forum that have been studying this a lot longer than me? I do get it. You don't think I have been trying to study this on my own now? I have. Like for instance, Psalms 51:5 is used to support original sin doctrine. But the meaning of the word translated in iniquity does not mean that David was saying he was born in sin. The same word is used in the story of Lot. I am not sure where, would have to find it again. But in the story of Lot and Sodom, the same word was used to describe Lot being in iniquity in Sodom. Meaning he was surrounded by it. Which is probably what David is saying in  Psalms 51:5. That he born in a sinful word, or born surrounded by sin. If I got the understanding correct.  Another verse used is Ezekiel 18:20 I believe. It's the verse where God says, " the soul that sins shall die, the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father ". If the son don't bear the iniquity of the father how can we bear the iniquity of Adam's sin? Especially since clearly death is in the world since the fall? See even more question that I have now. I ask questions, because I am not going to just make up my mind and then use the bible to justify what I think or have been told.

 

Firestormx

Joseph