Speaking in tongues 2

[Knowingtruth]

After reviewing this thread it seems the disucssion is going round and round in circles KT. You are simply repeating yourself and giving opinion as Biblical truth. Let me illustrate...

 

 

 I am only saying that the last two special gifts mentioned by Paul in Corinth that required an interpretation ceased in course of time as the church grew spiritually.

 

So this is what you are saying underlined. Where is this in Scripture in red?

 

I believe the speaking an unknown tongue followed by interpretation observed in Corith ceased in the course of time. Speaking in a known language unknown to a person may have continued though I have not observed that personally.

 

 

So this underlined is what you believe and what you've not observed personally.

Where is this in Scripture in red?

 

 

 

I prefer order and discipline with reverance and self-control when it comes to worshipping God.

 

 

God is the God of order I agree. Yet underlined what we prefer has little to do with or effect on what God allows or enjoys?

 

 

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils:  they shall speak with new tongues, They shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.   Mark 16:17,18

 

 

By the way, it is not the Corinthian tongue Mark is recording. It is known new tongue.

 

Underlined this is your interpretation of the passage. Again your beliefs brother.

 

 

Can you give actual examples of Pentecostal Churches that were so loud inside, the police had to be called?  I am not speaking of outdoor tent meetings, but church services being held inside a building. 

 

This is what I heard from another person who attended a church inside a building.

 

Here underlined you admit that you have second hand experience from what others have witnessed.

 

 

 

 

The issue I was addressing here is divine healing.  You didn't believe it was for today, and I was showing it is a Biblical practice for today.  The reason we pray in the Spirit and with the understanding is because God is able to pray through us for what we really need, when we take our own intellect out of the picture. 

 

My thrust of the topic is that the speaking in unknown tongue requiring interpretation has ceased. I believe in all other gifts of the Spirit listed by Paul. What is more, there are gifts available that are not specifically listed. Speaking in known language may have continued though I have not witnessed that!

 

Again underlined you're thrusting your opinion on the topic and IMO claiming it as Biblical truth.

 

Where does the Bible say this in red?

 

Again, what does our belief have to do with what God does? God will do as He chooses. And what is more you are speaking on issues you again have not witnessed again in orange. Just because you have not witnessed something doesn't mean it doesn't exist brother.

 

 

 

I do not know which type of tongue you are referring to, unknown or known tongue? I believe the unknown tongue that was observed only in Corinth disappeared.

 

 

Again underlined you're thrusting your opinion on the topic and IMO claiming it as Biblical truth.

 

Where does the Bible say this in red?

Please tell me where in the Bible it is mentioned that what was observed in worst Corinthian church will be observed elsewhere also. Where else it is recorded in Scripture?

[Knowingtruth]

 

 

In otherwords, I think, they became superfluous. But many Messianic Jews do not consider that way. There are Christians who want to support the building of a temple(anti-Christ activities) forgetting that they need to look forward to the spiritual temple in Jesus Christ! Therefore, the context is extremely important to apply the epistles in our lives. The truth should set us free indeed. Be blessed.

 

 

 

How are these "anti-christ_ activities?  The Temple will be rebuilt at some point, with or without anybody's support.

 

I doubt your wishful thinking that is totally against the supreme sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

 

It is very important to properly apply the Epistles to our lives.  Nowhere in the Epistles can you illustrate a moment when the Gifts ceased or where anyone, specially Paul, said they would definitively end in this present age.  You can present 1 Corinthians 13:8 as a proof text for cessation, but you have to ignore the last part of the verse and 2 verses after it to make it work.  And you cannot use a verse chopped in half after having been removed from it's context as support for anything.  Paul spends 2 whole chapters on the Gifts.  And his letter was to the Corinthians, but not just for them, his instructions where for the entire church.  Pretty odd that he would deal so specifically with each of the gifts and how to both use and not use them if they were just going to cease at any moment.

 

Where in the Scripture you find this interpretation is going to be given to all churches in future? Is it recorded in other churches during Paul's period?   Much of what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians from chapter 12 onwards was against the use of this speaking in unknown tongue finally indicating that the fruit of the Spirit 'love' should be cultivated.

 

[OneLight]

 

 

I do not know which type of tongue you are referring to, unknown or known tongue? I believe the unknown tongue that was observed only in Corinth disappeared.

 

 

 

 

Perhaps you could show biblical evidence of this?

 

Please read prayerfully the entire book of Acts and 1 Corinthians chapeters 12 to 14. Also please tell me where in the Bible the same gifts are going to be given everywhere?

 

 

None of the gifts are given to everyone, if that is what you mean.  Yet, because you do not speak in tongues, you stand against the gift.  Do you also stand against the other gifts  that the Holy Spirit has not given you?  What gifts has He given you?

[Knowingtruth]

Arguments made that tongues have ceased because of their supposed disappearance from mention in the epistles and absence in one's personal experience are essentially arguments based on silence - which is by nature a very weak argument to begin with. Although not specifically referring to tongues, Paul stated that the Spirit worked miracles amongst the Galatians - Gal 3:5.  Note that in this verse the Greek verbs are written in the present tense denoting the ongoing continuous nature of Spirit-wrought miracles amongst the Galatians. In other words at the time of Paul's letter, miracles did not cease but continued to occur the Galatian church.  In terms of today, I know a person very well who speaks in tongues.  She has found tongues useful in spiritual warfare - confronting demons (demons hate tongues employed against them) and also has the gift of discernment of spirits - able to identify the occurrence of someone speaking in a false tongue.

Tongues did cease for thousands of years. It got revived about 100 years back. You have no Scripture to indicate that demons hate tongues. I believe many spiritual gifts have continued, and least preferred ones that were  local in Corinth have ceased.

[other one]

 

Arguments made that tongues have ceased because of their supposed disappearance from mention in the epistles and absence in one's personal experience are essentially arguments based on silence - which is by nature a very weak argument to begin with. Although not specifically referring to tongues, Paul stated that the Spirit worked miracles amongst the Galatians - Gal 3:5.  Note that in this verse the Greek verbs are written in the present tense denoting the ongoing continuous nature of Spirit-wrought miracles amongst the Galatians. In other words at the time of Paul's letter, miracles did not cease but continued to occur the Galatian church.  In terms of today, I know a person very well who speaks in tongues.  She has found tongues useful in spiritual warfare - confronting demons (demons hate tongues employed against them) and also has the gift of discernment of spirits - able to identify the occurrence of someone speaking in a false tongue.

Tongues did cease for thousands of years. It got revived about 100 years back. You have no Scripture to indicate that demons hate tongues. I believe many spiritual gifts have continued, and least preferred ones that were  local in Corinth have ceased.

 

it has been my personal experience that demons do not like people praying in tongues.

[Guest Butero]

Nobody has to show that unknown tongues are mentioned over and over and over again to prove they continued.  I know they continue to this day because of a scripture in Acts 2:39

 

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

 

I have also seen them in church services, and I often pray in tongues.  You can deny it all you want, but people continue to pray in unknown tongues to this day. 

 

BTW, unknown only means to the audience hearing it.  All tongues are real languages.  Some are known on earth, and some are angelic languages.  The Corinthian Church was not as awful as you are making it out to be.  They had sinners in their midst they had failed to deal with, and Paul rebuked them for that.  They had been doing things out of order, and Paul straightened them out in that regard.  There is no indication Paul was saying they were wrong for speaking in tongues.  You want me to show you places in other epistles where we find people speaking in unknown tongues?  I want you to show me where in Corinthians the people are told they are wrong for speaking in an unknown tongue?  I am not talking about being out of order.  I want to know where Paul said they were wrong to speak in an unknown tongue at all?  He had no trouble rebuking them for allowing sin to continue in their midst?  Why was this matter so delicate he couldn't simply tell them they shouldn't speak at all in an unknown tongue? 

 

Everything you have said is nothing more than your opinion.  You have absolutely no way to prove any of it.  You can show that certain books don't discuss the topic again, but it is pure conjecture on your part as to why? 

[Knowingtruth]

 

I am not saying all the spiritual gifts have ceased. I am only pointing out that the speaking in unknown tongue through person's spirit ceased in conformity with what Paul advised.

 

 

 

************

 

I need to begin here by stating that I think we are closer to agreement on this than is obvious.

St. Paul never wrote that speaking in tongues would cease.  He did write a lot about moderation in this and other things as well.

Scripture and history agree that speaking in tongues has continued.

 

That being said I feel a need to inject my own observations and opinions at this point.

 

I've attended a lot of Pentacostal services as well as main line denominational services where speaking in tongues was in evidence (specifically Lutheran, Roman Catholic, Methodist and Episcopalian).  It's there.  It happens and it is of God.  I know this because it generally creates an excitement about Jesus Christ that is not evident through more sedentary and standard methods of worship.  I've seen people's eyes light up when talking about Jesus - people who never got excited about Christ before.

 

I've also seen a lot of abuse and that's where my personal objections enter the discussion.

 

St. Paul wrote about moderation.  He also wrote exact directions on how speaking in tongues ought to be implemented in a worship service.

Most of his directions have been ignored by the bulk of those who practice it.  Most.  Not all. 

When it's ignored or when it becomes immoderate I usually leave the group.  It is unseemly.

 

Let me reiterate that I have personally experienced the gift of the Holy Spirit in the form of speaking in tongues.

But I don't go around babbling like a drunk - even in church.

It should be noted, however, that this is exactly how speaking in tongues was perceived in the book of Acts.  

Observers thought the participants were totally off their rocker - drunk in the spirit.   And so they were.   And so they are.

 

The problem today is not that the Holy Spirit is not graciously continuing this gift....  It is continuing.

It's that the experience is being abused.   In most cases the utterance isn't of God at all.  Neither is it of the devil.

It's a human expression of spiritual one-upmanship.  Pure spiritual pride.  

So and so is more spiritual than somebody else. 

 

I've been to a LOT of churches that babble on Sunday morning (and Sunday night and Wednesday night, etc.)

The human/fake version of speaking in tongues always starts with the word 'SHUNDA'.  

Shunda shunda shunda followed by blah blah blah.  

(This is not a reference to the Afro-American singer of the same name. - just in case you Google it)

 

Listen carefully next time you sit in one of these services.  

It's a good bet you'll hear someone (and it's usually the same person every time)start the whole thing with SHUNDA.  

It's so stupid that even Mr. Ed the famous talking horse won't say it, but you'll hear it in a fake session of tongues.  

It's a way to show off.  I'm more spiritual than you are because I speak Shunda.

 

St. Paul writes that when someone speaks in tongues someone else must speak the interpretation.  

Again it's usually the same person doing that part - if it's done at all and a lot of times it isn't.

I call this talking magpie team Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee.   It's always the same pair and they always do a floor show on Sunday morning.

 

Now there's nothing wrong with a little insanity on Sunday morning.  Here in the south the ladies like their men religious and a little mad.

And so it goes.

 

Somewhere in isolated pockets of Christian fellowship the Holy Spirit responds to true worship and sometimes still grants the gift of speaking in tongues.

When it happens for real it's really quite awesome.  I've even heard singing in tongues.

The singing was almost as cool as hearing Silent Night sung in Arabic during a Christian service on the island of Bahrain on a Christmas eve with a Christmas tree from Lebanon decorated with REAL candles in the front of the church. (The candles were a little freaky I kid you not.  I was wishing I'd sat closer to the door that night.)

 

Yes, dear reader, like precious pure gold that isn't seen much any more the gift of the Holy Spirit known as speaking in tongues does indeed continue to this day.

It's just real hard to find the real thing.   That's my opinion for what it's worth and I think I've been around the block enough times to know.

 

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

Thanks for sharing!

[Guest Butero]

 

 

Arguments made that tongues have ceased because of their supposed disappearance from mention in the epistles and absence in one's personal experience are essentially arguments based on silence - which is by nature a very weak argument to begin with. Although not specifically referring to tongues, Paul stated that the Spirit worked miracles amongst the Galatians - Gal 3:5.  Note that in this verse the Greek verbs are written in the present tense denoting the ongoing continuous nature of Spirit-wrought miracles amongst the Galatians. In other words at the time of Paul's letter, miracles did not cease but continued to occur the Galatian church.  In terms of today, I know a person very well who speaks in tongues.  She has found tongues useful in spiritual warfare - confronting demons (demons hate tongues employed against them) and also has the gift of discernment of spirits - able to identify the occurrence of someone speaking in a false tongue.

Tongues did cease for thousands of years. It got revived about 100 years back. You have no Scripture to indicate that demons hate tongues. I believe many spiritual gifts have continued, and least preferred ones that were  local in Corinth have ceased.

 

it has been my personal experience that demons do not like people praying in tongues.

 

Take a close look at something here.  "I believe many spiritual gifts have continued and least preferred ones that were local in Corinth have ceased."   Think about this for a moment.  We have an acknowledgement that tongues are a spiritual gift, meaning they came from God.  Why would God give this church a bad gift, or even an inferior gift in the first place, even if the church had faults?  In addition to that, even the least of a gift from God is something to treasure.  Why would anyone think it has ceased, and why would anyone want it to cease?

[Guest Butero]

I have a question.  How are we to know that when we hear the word "shunda," used, it is fake tongues? 

[OneLight]

Tongues did cease for thousands of years. It got revived about 100 years back. You have no Scripture to indicate that demons hate tongues. I believe many spiritual gifts have continued, and least preferred ones that were local in Corinth have ceased.

Strange you say this.  What gifts came outside of Corinth?  Notice which are listed in 1 Corinthians 12.

 

Please provide scripture that you have formed your belief from so we can see why you believe this way.