Seeing a Woman: A conversation between a father and son

[GoldenEagle]

When reading this...

There are three key points that, I believe, ring out with clarity:

(1) Christ-following men are to see every single woman (in church and outside of the church) as fellow image-bearers of God, who have equal value, significance, and worth in the sight of God,

 

(2) We are to "see" them as Jesus would see them, not as objects to lust after or objects to fear, but as fellow human beings in need of God's love, grace, and truth,

 

(3) Our lust is our problem and our sin and our issue. We cannot blame the woman for the sin of the man. Guys, she is not the one who is responsible for "keeping you from lusting" right now and she will not be the one held responsible for your sin before God. Men, you have sole responsibility for your sin.

Caveats to keep in mind:

First, please note that this article was not written to girls or women, but to boys and men. This is a TOTALLY different perspective, and a much needed one for that matter.

 

Second, guys see women everywhere, not just at church. The best and most biblical theology will prepare guys to think about and respond to women in Christ-like way in every sort of setting, context, and dare I say, in every type of clothing. I must take full responsibility to think and respond like Christ when I'm at the mall, the beach, the store, the theater, and the church building.... may the Spirit give us strength and power to walk according to God's will so that we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

 

God bless,

GE
 

 

 

Seeing a Woman: A conversation between a father and son
 

Someday I am going to have to have the conversation with my son.  No, not the conversation all parents dread giving and all kids are mortified having.  I enjoy making people uncomfortable so that conversation should be fun.

No, I’m talking about another conversation.  The one that happens after I catch his eye doing what male eyes do well – following an object of lust.  We will probably be out at the mall, because that’s what dads do with their sons, and I’ll catch the look.  Maybe we’ll go to the beach and see it.  Doesn’t matter where it is, there will come a time when I will see it.  And then it will be time for this conversation.

*****

Hey, come here.  Let me talk to you.  I saw you look at her.  I’m not judging you or shaming you.  I know why you did.  I get it.  But we have to talk about it because how you look at a woman matters.
 

 

A lot of people will try and tell you that a woman should watch how she dresses so she doesn’t tempt you to look at her wrongly.  Here is what I will tell you.  It is a woman’s responsibility to dress herself in the morning.  It is your responsibility to look at her like a human being regardless of what she is wearing.  You will feel the temptation to blame her for your wandering eyes because of what she is wearing – or not wearing.  But don’t.  Don’t play the victim.  You are not a helpless victim when it comes to your eyes.  You have full control over them.  Exercise that control.  Train them to look her in the eyes.  Discipline yourself to see her, not her clothes or her body.  The moment you play the victim you fall into the lie that you are simply embodied reaction to external stimuli unable to determine right from wrong, human from flesh.

Look right at me.  That is a ridiculous lie.

You are more than that.  And the woman you are looking at is more than her clothes.  She is more than her body.  There is a lot of talk about how men objectify women, and largely, it is true.  Humans objectify the things they love in effort to control them.  If you truly love a person, do not reduce them to an object.  The moment you objectify another human – woman or man, you give up your humanity.

There are two views regarding a woman’s dress code that you will be pressured to buy into.  One view will say that women need to dress to get the attention of men.  The other view will say women need to dress to protect men from themselves.  Son, you are better than both of these.  A woman, or any human being, should not have to dress to get your attention.  You should give them the full attention they deserve simply because they are a fellow human being.  On the other side, a woman should not have to feel like she needs to protect you from you.  You need to be in control of you.

Unfortunately, much of how the sexes interact with each is rooted in fear.  Fear of rejection, fear of abuse, fear of being out of control.  In some ways, the church has added to this.  We fear each other because we have been taught the other is dangerous.  We’ve been a taught a woman’s body will cause men to sin.  We’re told that if a woman shows too much of her body men will do stupid things.  Let’s be clear: a woman’s body is not dangerous to you.  Her body will not cause you harm.  It will not make you do stupid things.  If you do stupid things it is because you chose to do stupid things.  So don’t contribute to the fear that exists between men and women.

A woman’s body is beautiful and wonderful and mysterious.  Respect it by respecting her as an individual with hopes and dreams and experiences and emotions and longings.  Let her be confident.  Encourage her confidence.  But don’t do all this because she is weaker.  That’s the biggest bunch of crud out there.  Women are not weaker than men.  They are not the weaker sex.  They are the other sex.

I’m not telling you to not look at women.  Just the opposite.  I’m telling you to see women.  Really see them.  Not just with your eyes, but with your heart.  Don’t look to see something that tickles your senses, but see a human being.  

My hope is that changing how you see women will change how you are around them.  Don’t just be around women.  Be with women.

Because in the end, they want to be with you.  Without fear of being judged, or shamed, or condemned, or objectified, or being treated as other.  And that’s not just what women want.  That’s what people want.

Ultimately, it’s what you want.

Source: http://natepyle.com/seeing-a-woman/

[missmuffet]

 

When reading this...

There are three key points that, I believe, ring out with clarity:

(1) Christ-following men are to see every single woman (in church and outside of the church) as fellow image-bearers of God, who have equal value, significance, and worth in the sight of God,

 

(2) We are to "see" them as Jesus would see them, not as objects to lust after or objects to fear, but as fellow human beings in need of God's love, grace, and truth,

 

(3) Our lust is our problem and our sin and our issue. We cannot blame the woman for the sin of the man. Guys, she is not the one who is responsible for "keeping you from lusting" right now and she will not be the one held responsible for your sin before God. Men, you have sole responsibility for your sin.

Caveats to keep in mind:

First, please note that this article was not written to girls or women, but to boys and men. This is a TOTALLY different perspective, and a much needed one for that matter.

 

Second, guys see women everywhere, not just at church. The best and most biblical theology will prepare guys to think about and respond to women in Christ-like way in every sort of setting, context, and dare I say, in every type of clothing. I must take full responsibility to think and respond like Christ when I'm at the mall, the beach, the store, the theater, and the church building.... may the Spirit give us strength and power to walk according to God's will so that we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

 

God bless,

GE

 

 

 

Seeing a Woman: A conversation between a father and son

 

Someday I am going to have to have the conversation with my son.  No, not the conversation all parents dread giving and all kids are mortified having.  I enjoy making people uncomfortable so that conversation should be fun.

<snip>

GE I do not think that is fair.It should not only be the responsibility for men not to just and look at a woman if she is dressed in a provocative manner.It is also the responsibilty of the woman to PUT SOME CLOTHES ON.Men are human.She could be teasing men.

[GoldenEagle]

 

GE I do not think that is fair. It should not only be the responsibility for men not to just and look at a woman if she is dressed in a provocative manner. It is also the responsibilty of the woman to PUT SOME CLOTHES ON.Men are human.She could be teasing men.

 

 

Hey Bo I think I hear what you're saying. I don't think the author of the article was saying it was the sole responsibility of men not to look on a woman lustfully. If you read the section above the article this was written for boys and men. See the caveat below that included above the article...

 

 

When reading this...

Caveats to keep in mind:

First, please note that this article was not written to girls or women, but to boys and men. This is a TOTALLY different perspective, and a much needed one for that matter.

 

I think it's clear the author was saying that it's the responsibility of a woman or girl how she dresses herself in the morning to start her day. On the flip side it is the responsibility of a man or boy to look on a female as a human being regardless of what she's wearing. In other words guys should respect ladies REGARDLESS if they don't respect themselves by how they act or what they wear. It's really calling men and boys to look at women as human beings not just pieces of meat. That is how I read this article. From the article:

 

It is a woman’s responsibility to dress herself in the morning.  It is your <young man's> responsibility to look at her like a human being regardless of what she is wearing.

I’m not telling you to not look at women.  Just the opposite.  I’m telling you to see women.  Really see them.  Not just with your eyes, but with your heart.  Don’t look to see something that tickles your senses, but see a human being.  

 

This article is also addressing fathers and sons NOT rules for modesty IMO. I thought it was good because we should be teaching our sons to resist temptation yes, but also not to objectify women.

 

Do you see this perspective?

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

A couple of friends said the following...
 

 

Sarah: "I do have major health issues which means I cannot have gluten (most grains for that matter), refined sugar, dairy, peanuts, etc. Every single Sunday I talk to many people who happily munch a donut in front of me. Am I tempted? Sometimes. But would I ever tell them they aren't allowed to eat it in front of me? No way. Respect goes a long way in not policing someone else and worrying about me, myself, and I. :-)

 

 

and...

 

 

 

Lance: Now I can agree that a woman should dress properly, and not in an intentional way as to arouse a guy, but I think too often, it's used as an excuse to justify personal standards that one thinks others are violating. We might say that certain dress, such as a two-piece swimsuit at the beach, will arouse a guy because we personally don't like that. The thing is though, that no matter how much of a woman's body is covered, it doesn't matter to a guy who can't control his thoughts, which is evidenced when Muslim women in full body covering burkhas are raped.

[nebula]

GE I do not think that is fair.It should not only be the responsibility for men not to just and look at a woman if she is dressed in a provocative manner.It is also the responsibilty of the woman to PUT SOME CLOTHES ON.Men are human.She could be teasing men.

 

I agree that we women need to guard what we wear for the sake of love.

 

However, do you disagree that this is a good message for men to hear?

[Sevenseas]

Here is an interesting reply from a responder on the original blog post:  (words in blue)

 

Um....Why does everyone assume that everyone else is a "believer"? People should have respect for one another because it's right. Not just because the bible says so. Why must modesty and respect only be discussed in a religious context? Young girls should not be posting sexual pictures on the internet because it's dangerous. And Guys should not be sending messages to girls that they are only interested in their bodies for sexual purposes (implied or direct messages on FB...either one)

And the word modesty is subjective. I have had to YELL at old world Amish men (not the kind you see on TV) who have looked my 16yo daughter up and down like she was dinner without trying to hide it and she was wearing nothing but jeans and a hoodie.

I also think we should all remind ourselves that what all these teenagers are feeling is totally NORMAL! It is our job as parents to help guide them and teach them to be safe. And be respectful and LOVE one another. It is our job to teach. Not blame or shame. 
Whether you are a believer or not.

btw...I AM a Christian. But not a church goer.

 

Well she took the words right out of my mouth.  The post struck me as a dialogue between a Christian father and his son and addressed the response of a CHRISTIAN man

to A woman, ANY woman, ALL women

 

When is it going to sink in that the woman at the well that Jesus spoke to was not only married several times and living in sin, but she was also a Samaritan which alone should have

been enough to cause a very religiously proper Jesus to ignore her?  

 

And how did Jesus react to the woman caught in adultery (let's not discuss the obvious missing man in this scene)

 

Now the lady I quoted above wrote that 'people' should have respect for each other and not just because the Bible says so...BUT as nice as that would be, it is kind of hard to respect

say....Miley....or JayLo or the current flavor of the week ...or any other woman who cavorts her sexuality as if it was a dare.  It's not going to stop so get over it!!!  You are not called to condemn how other

women dress.....if you were, then Jesus would have pushed the Samaritan woman into the well and been the first to throw a stone at the other woman (LITERAL other woman)

 

It's not anyone elses fault if your boyfrieind or your husband flirts or looks at other women or left you for another woman.  It is HIS fault and that applies whether or not he is a Christian.

 

That, is what the op is about.  You cannot throw a blanket at a woman and tell her to cover up before you talk to her and you will certainly never ever reach her for Christ if that is

our idea of how to approach a woman that you personally think is a slut or a whore or a loose woman or a bimbo or a tease or a man chaser or an adulteress.  

 

The Bible says the church should judge and deal with the church.  If your eye offends  you then pluck it out.  That means, the  offence is actually YOURS...YOUR EYE...not the one

you want to point a finger at.  

 

 

 

I’m not telling you to not look at women.  Just the opposite.  I’m telling you to see women.  Really see them.  Not just with your eyes, but with your heart.  Don’t look to see something that tickles your senses, but see a human being.  

 

 

 

I firmly believe most women would actually want that very thing...even the 'loose' ones.  There are always exceptions....they are probably not reading this thread. 

 

 

 

Lance: Now I can agree that a woman should dress properly, and not in an intentional way as to arouse a guy, but I think too often, it's used as an excuse to justify personal standards that one thinks others are violating. We might say that certain dress, such as a two-piece swimsuit at the beach, will arouse a guy because we personally don't like that. The thing is though, that no matter how much of a woman's body is covered, it doesn't matter to a guy who can't control his thoughts, which is evidenced when Muslim women in full body covering burkhas are raped.

 

 

 

 

Personal standards are not God's standards.    I think constantly pointing out how a woman tempts a man by the way she dress is provocative in and of itself....Why is this, I wonder.

 

I really agree with Lance's statement.            

[Sevenseas]

 

This article is also addressing fathers and sons NOT rules for modesty IMO. I thought it was good because we should be teaching our sons to resist temptation yes, but also not to objectify women.

 

Do you see this perspective?

 

 

Yes...absolutely and I totally agree.  My dad did not objectify women and did not approve of other men doing so and certainly taught his son, by example, that women are actual persons

 

Even that does not mean everything will have some kind of fairy tale ending...but, like anything else, repeat often enough and it might sink in.  

 

A good way to help bring home the lesson, is to ask your son if he would like his sister being made the object of undesired attention or some similar example.  At the same time, girls might

learn to respect men, especially those girls who believe they do not have a reason to respect men because of how they have been treated by them.

 

There is no way any of this can be enforced except through brute force which renders the objective meaningless.  Therefore, the only solution is the personal surrender of ourselves to

Jesus Christ as Lord of our Life and ask HIM to give us the proper perspective and convict us by His Spirit when we sin or are approaching it.

 

Pray for one another and for those outside the faith ... doesn't mean you accept or condone sin, but this dress code for women to relieve men of their own responsibility, is just never

going to work as has been pointed out ad infinitum in other threads.

 

Stepping off the hamster wheel now.............

[missmuffet]

 

GE I do not think that is fair.It should not only be the responsibility for men not to just and look at a woman if she is dressed in a provocative manner.It is also the responsibilty of the woman to PUT SOME CLOTHES ON.Men are human.She could be teasing men.

 

I agree that we women need to guard what we wear for the sake of love.

 

However, do you disagree that this is a good message for men to hear?

 

Yes,I think it is a good message in general to stay away from temptation.We all need to stay away from that.If a woman is dressed properly and well covered and a man is lusting after her then I think he needs to look at that.Their is a problem.Is it  also possible for a woman to lust after a man if he is not dressed properly?

[LadyKay]

 

I agree that we women need to guard what we wear for the sake of love.

 

Not that I am in disagreement. But for sake of conversation, just how far do you go with this? I mean for  some men, he may look at any women "lustily" no matter what they are wear. I can remember walking down the street in my old neighborhood in a par of sweat pants and a t-shirt and men would drive by in their cars yelling "yeah baby I want you" out the window at me. Now was it my fault that they looked at me and lusted after me? I don't think so. After all I am wearing sweats and a t-shirt, hardly sexy. So while I agree I think it is always classier for a women to dress so that her butt checks are not being viewed for all the world to see; it is up to men to control themselves. Or us women can walking around in a cardboard box for the sake of men.

 

Also when ever "modestly is talking about. At less in the church. It is always directed towards the women. As if she is the one who' s choice of clothing needs to be regulated. I have seen plenty of men out in the hot sun on the beach in little tinny swim pants, and men working with no shirt on showing off their muscly bodies and I have yet to hear any "ho·li·er-than-thou" shame the men for not being modest.

Edited September 6, 2013 by LadyKay

[Sevenseas]

But how about the op?  It is about a MAN intending to talk with his SON on how a Christian man should view women.  It is NOT at all about how women should dress.

 

It is not even really about Christian women...just women in general.

 

Perhaps a review of some of the comments in response on the original blog post would be in order.

 

I mean, it's like this thread is being hijacked...AGAIN...in order to discuss how one or two women think other women should dress.

 

It's not about how women should dress.  Can you take a minute and actually try to see something else besides how much another womens' attire might offend someone ?

 

GE has tried several times to introduce another line of thought but it seems he is talking into the wind. 

 

All women and all men are really and truly not victim to the perception of one person no matter how sincere that person may be.