Questions about Acts 3?

[firestormx]

Thanks for that Matt reference, however, it still does not tell us when of what the restoration of all things is, only that Elijah seems to be an agent of it. Very interesting.

Well, The only other thing I can add is an observation. according to these verses in Matt. the apostles said "why do the scribes say Elijah must come first". My observation is, if restoration is a part of that ministry then how did the scribes know it? Where is it in the bible? The last verse of Malachi talks about Elijah coming before the end. But where else would it be? Anyways that all I can think of. If I come across anything else I will post it. Great question by the way. I love puzzles like this that make you dig into the word.

[Guest]

Thanks again for your contribution firestormx, I hope you do find more. I am always tempted to think, that God does not create puzzles which have no solutions.

[Guest]

Omegaman

 

Then how was it possible for Saul to be talking to Jesus at his conversion.  Acts 9:3-6 - As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him.  He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him; Saul, Saul, why do you persecuted me?  Who are you Lord Saul asked.  A am Jesus whom you are persecuting, he replied. Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.

 

Was Jesus still in heaven until the restoration of all things at this time. Or was He here on earth as Saul conversed with Jesus.  Your supposition is dismantled by this conversion of Saul.  The Pre-Trib Rapture position is possible, a time which cannot be calculated, an unknown time. Post-Trib can be calculated, a known time.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Wow, so many non sequiturs and presumptions! Conveniently you left out part of Acts 9:

 

 7The men who traveled with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. 

 

If the men traveling with him, saw no one, it is just as reasonable to assume, that Jesus was not there, but that Paul had a vision. No physical presence is specified.

 

Now, if we take it your way, that Jesus was physically present, then you make Acts 3 out to be false. So what is it to be, make the bible lie by assuming facts not in evidence, or do we take the scripture at it's word in both passages, allowing it to harmonize with itself. Obviously, I prefer the latter, too lazy to try to force the scripture to conform to my presuppositions. 

 

Your argument that in the post trib position, the timing cannot be calculated, I assume you mean this violates the "no man knows the day ot the hour" passage. Again, your exegesis is just sloppy on that point. You apparently take that to mean that no man will ever know the time or the hour, unless I misunderstand your point. Assuming that I am correctly understanding your point, let's be clear, and look at what the passage actually says, without reading ones ideas into it:

 

36“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 

 

What does that passage say? It says that presently (in this case 2000 years ago) no one knew.

 

What does it not say? It does not say that no one would ever know. Your argument is already invalidated once you toss out the assumption that is not warranted in the language.

 

It said that the Son did not even know. Now that He is no longer limited by the suspended attributes of God that he gave up while on Earth, do you suppose that He still does not know the time of His coming? Or is He now omniscient? If you force the view that presumes that that statement was not restricted to the present at the time, you have this problem, if you stop reading into the text, that problem disappears.

 

Again, if we suppose that no one would ever know, then that means that even those who will experience these things, won't know that it happened either, our assumptions can lead to some absurd ideas.

 

Again, you chose to leave (assuming that you were referring to that no one knows passage - I cannot tell, since you gave no explanation of why you think that there is a problem if 'posties' can have people knowing the time) part of the passage out, the next verse reads:

 

37“For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38“For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 

 

Here we see that, the word "For" connects this thought to the previous one. Therefore, what no one can know, is the day or hour of the visible coming and presence of the Lord after the tribulation, that Jesus was describing - that is the context, so, not only have you assumed things about the verse, you also lifted it from it's context (the 2nd coming after the trib) entirely! 

 

Now in the next verse, as we just saw, it is compared to the days of Noah. How were those days? Well, Noah knew the flood was coming, He was not surprised, in fact, his family was preparing because they knew they would be present when God poured out His wrath on the ungodly.

 

I hope you can get to where your emotional attachment to a pre-trib rapture, no longer compels you to read scripture through pre-trib glasses, and instead, just take the scripture at face value, and gain your understanding from the text, without the need to read into it. I hope that blunt observation is not too unpleasant, I don't mean to be unkind, but I believe that you are misleading yourself and others, and that is not good for anyone.

[Salty]

I do not think I have ever seen this  discussed.

 

19"Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21whom heaven must receive until %5Bthe%5D period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

 

(hyperlinks are to the underlying Greek)

 

 

Now, I see no need to discuss the merits and demerits of the various rapture positions in this thread, that has been done over and over in other threads, But notice that this says that Heaven must receive Jesus UNTIL the period of restoration. 

What does this mean? The language is a bit clunky for 21st century English, To me, if heaven must receive him until, that means He remains there until.

 

 

If that contradicts your particular pet end times theory, then you will probably disagree already, but I think that if one is not swayed by what one presumes, one would agree that this is the natural understanding of these words. Assuming I am correct for a moment, we then see that there is an event that cancels the requirement of Jesus remaining in Heaven. This is referred to in the verse as "the period of restoration of all things. Now, would we presume that the perod of restoration is the tribulation, or any time prior to it? I think not. Therefore, this verse seems to rule out Jesus leaving heaven anytime until some other event after the tribulation. My bet is that the time of restoration, is the Millenial Kingdom, or perhaps the war where Jesus defeats Satan so that the Millenium may begin.

 

What do you think the time of restoration of all things is? What ever it is, it seems that it has to occur after Jesus returns and He won't return until until it is time for the restoration to begin. I cannot see how His return can fit anywhere other that between the tribulation and the 1000 years without really odd assumptions. What do you think?

 

That Scripture is not difficult like you're trying to make it. It's talking about Christ's Ascension to The Father's throne in Heaven until it's time for His return to restore all things, as written in the Books of God's prophets.

[Guest]

 

 

That Scripture is not difficult like you're trying to make it. It's talking about Christ's Ascension to The Father's throne in Heaven until it's time for His return to restore all things, as written in the Books of God's prophets.

 

 

No offense Salty, but I don't think you have said anything here. Yes, what you say it is talking about, is what it is talking about, but what does it mean? For example, what is written in the books of God's prophets, that indicates what or when is the time of His return to restore all things?

 

I would point out, that there are passages that speak of Jesus returning after the Great Tribulation that Jesus specifies in Matt 24, referring to prophecy in the book of Daniel, It appears to me, that when Jesus appears (comes, arrives) after the Great Tribulation, that all things have not yet been restored up to that point.

 

Than being the case, since Jesus cannot leave Heaven before the time of restoration, then He cannot leave Heaven to come to catch the church up to Himself in the air until at least after the tribulation.

 

It seems then, that any assumption that Jesus will return to rapture the church before the great tribulation, is a flat contradiction of Act 3:21, UNLESS we can identify an event before the great tribulation which can be legitimatly be referred to as the time of restoration of all things.

 

So, my invitation to expound on Acts 3:21, is an invitation to provide scripture indicating an event before the great tribulation, that Acts 3:21 might be referring to. Until that can be provided, it is fair to assume, that the so called rapture of the church, is after the great tribulation, as the church in general, has believed until the 19th century.

 

It might be that Acts 3 itself, is giving a clue, because it speaks of a time of refreshing, at Jesus presence. Perhaps his presence (which is after the great tribulation) is the time of restoration. Refreshing, making fresh again, is very similar language to "restoration". Now, if we actually beleive that He will not return until this time of restoration, and we KNOW that He returns to be present after the tribulation, then necessarily, we know the time of restoration has come, at the time the tribulation ends, but no one has shown so far from scripture, were Jesus leaves Heaven and restores all things.

 

It is my opinion, based on these observations, that no rational person can assume a pretribulation rapture based upon scripture, until a time of restoration before the great tribulation, can be demonstrated. Of course, beleivers are free to make assumptions that Jesus comes before the great tribulation based upon emotions and great optimism.

[iamlamad]

 

I think that you are misinterpreting Scripture. At the Rapture, the Church meets Christ in the clouds, his feet never touch the Earth; therefore He remains in Heaven. The Rapture is NOT the Second Coming.

 

Yes Parker, the coluds can be considerd as Jesus still remaining in Heaven. 

 

Hmmm. I was so sure the text read that Jesus would DESCEND from heaven with a shout..."

 

How then could one descend from, and remain in at the same time?

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

That Scripture is not difficult like you're trying to make it. It's talking about Christ's Ascension to The Father's throne in Heaven until it's time for His return to restore all things, as written in the Books of God's prophets.

 

 

No offense Salty, but I don't think you have said anything here. Yes, what you say it is talking about, is what it is talking about, but what does it mean? For example, what is written in the books of God's prophets, that indicates what or when is the time of His return to restore all things?

 

I would point out, that there are passages that speak of Jesus returning after the Great Tribulation that Jesus specifies in Matt 24, referring to prophecy in the book of Daniel, It appears to me, that when Jesus appears (comes, arrives) after the Great Tribulation, that all things have not yet been restored up to that point.

 

Than being the case, since Jesus cannot leave Heaven before the time of restoration, then He cannot leave Heaven to come to catch the church up to Himself in the air until at least after the tribulation.

 

It seems then, that any assumption that Jesus will return to rapture the church before the great tribulation, is a flat contradiction of Act 3:21, UNLESS we can identify an event before the great tribulation which can be legitimatly be referred to as the time of restoration of all things.

 

So, my invitation to expound on Acts 3:21, is an invitation to provide scripture indicating an event before the great tribulation, that Acts 3:21 might be referring to. Until that can be provided, it is fair to assume, that the so called rapture of the church, is after the great tribulation, as the church in general, has believed until the 19th century.

 

You are mistaken. Since I am new here, I cannot say "as usual."

 

When Jesus comes FOR His bride, pretrib, IT IS TIME for restoration to begin: the rapture is the TRIGGER for the Day of the Lord, and the beginning of restoration.

 

See? That was not so difficult after all.

 

LAMAD

[Salty]

 

 

 

That Scripture is not difficult like you're trying to make it. It's talking about Christ's Ascension to The Father's throne in Heaven until it's time for His return to restore all things, as written in the Books of God's prophets.

 

 

No offense Salty, but I don't think you have said anything here. Yes, what you say it is talking about, is what it is talking about, but what does it mean? For example, what is written in the books of God's prophets, that indicates what or when is the time of His return to restore all things?

 

I would point out, that there are passages that speak of Jesus returning after the Great Tribulation that Jesus specifies in Matt 24, referring to prophecy in the book of Daniel, It appears to me, that when Jesus appears (comes, arrives) after the Great Tribulation, that all things have not yet been restored up to that point.

 

Than being the case, since Jesus cannot leave Heaven before the time of restoration, then He cannot leave Heaven to come to catch the church up to Himself in the air until at least after the tribulation.

 

It seems then, that any assumption that Jesus will return to rapture the church before the great tribulation, is a flat contradiction of Act 3:21, UNLESS we can identify an event before the great tribulation which can be legitimatly be referred to as the time of restoration of all things.

 

So, my invitation to expound on Acts 3:21, is an invitation to provide scripture indicating an event before the great tribulation, that Acts 3:21 might be referring to. Until that can be provided, it is fair to assume, that the so called rapture of the church, is after the great tribulation, as the church in general, has believed until the 19th century.

 

It might be that Acts 3 itself, is giving a clue, because it speaks of a time of refreshing, at Jesus presence. Perhaps his presence (which is after the great tribulation) is the time of restoration. Refreshing, making fresh again, is very similar language to "restoration". Now, if we actually beleive that He will not return until this time of restoration, and we KNOW that He returns to be present after the tribulation, then necessarily, we know the time of restoration has come, at the time the tribulation ends, but no one has shown so far from scripture, were Jesus leaves Heaven and restores all things.

 

It is my opinion, based on these observations, that no rational person can assume a pretribulation rapture based upon scripture, until a time of restoration before the great tribulation, can be demonstrated. Of course, beleivers are free to make assumptions that Jesus comes before the great tribulation based upon emotions and great optimism.

 

 

If you don't know what's written in the Books of God's prophets about events to occur for the end of this world, and thereafter, then you won't know how Jesus is going to 'restore' all things. That is very true. I suggest brethren finding a good Church that actually teaches Bible instead of men's doctrines from printed Church Quarterlies. We are to understand these things as believers on Christ Jesus. The restoration subject is not something that can be laid out on one single page, because we're talking about many Books of The Bible. Just like there's no shortcut to learning a university subject, same goes for disciplining ourselves within God's Word Book by Book, chapter by chapter, and line by line.

[Persuaded]

I do not think I have ever seen this  discussed.

 

19"Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

 

(hyperlinks are to the underlying Greek)

 

 

Now, I see no need to discuss the merits and demerits of the various rapture positions in this thread, that has been done over and over in other threads, But notice that this says that Heaven must receive Jesus UNTIL the period of restoration. 

What does this mean? The language is a bit clunky for 21st century English, To me, if heaven must receive him until, that means He remains there until.

 

 

If that contradicts your particular pet end times theory, then you will probably disagree already, but I think that if one is not swayed by what one presumes, one would agree that this is the natural understanding of these words. Assuming I am correct for a moment, we then see that there is an event that cancels the requirement of Jesus remaining in Heaven. This is referred to in the verse as "the period of restoration of all things. Now, would we presume that the perod of restoration is the tribulation, or any time prior to it? I think not. Therefore, this verse seems to rule out Jesus leaving heaven anytime until some other event after the tribulation. My bet is that the time of restoration, is the Millenial Kingdom, or perhaps the war where Jesus defeats Satan so that the Millenium may begin.

 

What do you think the time of restoration of all things is? What ever it is, it seems that it has to occur after Jesus returns and He won't return until until it is time for the restoration to begin. I cannot see how His return can fit anywhere other that between the tribulation and the 1000 years without really odd assumptions. What do you think?

 

Context, context, context?

 

Acts 3 begins with Peter and John and the healing of the crippled man and the "silver and gold have I none" passage.

 

v12 Then, Peter says to the amazed crowd near the temple: "men of Israel, why do you marvel at this..." and begins a discourse to them.

 

v13-16 He reminds them that their God glorified Jesus, whom they killed, and it is by Him that the healing was done.

 

v18 He reminds them that Jesus' suffering was foretold.

 

v19 He calls them to repentance, so that "times of refreshing may come" (2 Chron 7:14, perhaps)

 

v20 He re-affirms that Jesus Christ will be coming again, as they have always heard and believed from the teachings of the scripture.

 

v21 He explains why Jesus isn't King in Jerusalem right now, why the delay, why He isn't a failed messiah. This verse is explaining Christ's current absence to the jews, and assuring them that "al things" concerning the messiah that they knew from the scripture, would still be fulfilled.

To get hung up on "receive until the times of the restoration of all things", which appears to be a very general phrase ("receive" is passive, not like He is restrained and held prisoner there; "times" is like season, not a single moment; the "all things" seems to refer back to the things concerning the messiah in the scriptures that Peter has just discussed).

 

Sure, this verse is consistent with other scripture that says he's going away and will return to fulfill the rest of the OT prophesies concerning the messiah. More than that, is reading into it more than is there.

 

The rest of the chapter closes out with more reassurance that the scripture is not broken, it has not gone unfulfilled in Christ, and that His blessing is available to them.

[Guest]

 

To get hung up on "receive until the times of the restoration of all things", which appears to be a very general phrase ("receive" is passive, not like He is restrained and held prisoner there; "times" is like season, not a single moment; the "all things" seems to refer back to the things concerning the messiah in the scriptures that Peter has just discussed).

 

 19“Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;20and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. 

 

I agree that there are times, a period, being referred to here. Never-the-less, those times or period have to have a beginning, and the beginning seems to be set on a condition. That condition is the presence of the Lord. That presence, does not exist before His return after the tribulation, so again, without any evidence to the contrary, and none has been put forth yet, pre-trib rapture is impossible, unless Jesus never leaves heaven to catch up His church. People can try all sorts of ways to wiggle around the obvious, but rather than face the obvious, they just redefine concepts and inject 'maybes' to stay comfortable with their theology, instead af accepting the bible's version of things.

Of course, we know also, from other verses, that jesus stays in heaven for a while (pointed out for those who think that as long as Jesus does not touch down, He is still in Heaven). For example, where is Jesus until His enemies are to be subdued?

 

 35And Jesus began to say, as He taught in the temple, “How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David?

36“David himself said in the Holy Spirit,

            ‘THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,

            “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,

            UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET.”’

37“David himself calls Him ‘Lord’; so in what sense is He his son?” And the large crowd enjoyed listening to Him.

 

I might be reading too much into that, but it strikes me that Jesus remains at the right hand of the Father, until the time to defeat His enemies has come. If He remains at the right hand, then He is still in Heaven, and not floating around in the air, calling it Heaven. Again, totally consistaent with post trib theology.

 

Regarding the concept of received: Yes, Jesus is not held captive, but the qualifier is that He is received UNTIL . . . does that really need comment?