One Way Love: An Antidote to Legalism?

[Guest Butero]

 

I started to address legalism, but even Shiloh acknowledges it is not a Biblical term, so why should I care what different people think it means?  It is just a term people created to attack anyone that comes against something they are doing.  It is a way of silencing those who speak against sin. 

That isn't true.  There is a difference between legalism and holiness.  Legalism focuses on external things, like how much jewelry someone wears, how much makeup or the kind of clothes they wear or the kind of music they listen to or other such things. 

 

Holiness is comes from the inside out.  Holy living the result of a life transformed by the power of God.  Holiness is produced in us by the Holy Spirit. 

 

When I am being legalistic, I can measure your walk with the Lord by my standards of what holiness is.  In effect, I am measuring you against me.  If you don't look the way I think you ought to look, if your hair doesn't meet MY definition of a holy haircut, if your clothes don't meet MY standard of proper dress, etc, then you are not living holy.

 

However, when holiness comes from the inside, when it is a reflection of the Lord's character I don't have time to say that you are sinning by doing this or that. 

 

The difference is that legalism is the product of the flesh. Holiness is the product of the Spirit.

 

What you just said confirms what I said.  Let me explain.  These are specific areas of disagreement in the church.  Some would say that the outward appearance matters and some do not believe that.  I would bet if I pin you down hard enough, I could even find times where you would agree the outward appearance matters, if it is nothing more than a man who goes around looking like Boy George.  The outward can be a reflection of the inner man?  So here we have an example of how someone doesn't like you pointing out they are dressing in a sinful way, so they call it legalism to silence their critics.  You could have a woman lying topless on the beach, and she is a professing Christian and feels just fine about how she is appearing in public.  Someone calls that immodest, and they are labeled a legalist.  We all have different views about such matters.  So once again, legalism is a word used to attack anyone that would call something sinful a person is doing.  It is a means of demonizing and silencing them. 

[Willa]

I am one person who has refrained from sin do to the fear of God. I was not afraid of hell. I was afraid of God's chastening. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

And Butero, several times you have stated the Galatians 5:21 version, that those who PRACTICE such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if these are not chastened by God, yielding the peacable fruit of righteousness, it means they were never His because we are told that He chastens those He loves, His sons.

Galatians 5:16 ALT
But I say to you be walking about [conducting yourself] in the Spirit and you[all] will by no means fulfill [or carry out] the lust of the flesh. V. 18 But since you[all] are led by the Spirit, you'all are not under the law.

So the answer to the whole question is to walk in the Spirit, which Christians are eager to do because of our gratitude for God's grace.
It does not require self effort or striving. It is just seeking God's guidance.

I have been contemplating the woman who washed Christ's feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. She anointed them with the costly perfume. Jesus said that he who is forgiven much loves much. Sometimes we only have to realize how evil our sin is to be forgiven much. We must see it through God's eyes and not compare ourselves with others. It is not just our sins, but our being sinners that is forgiven. So we drink in God's grace, His unmerited favor. We are humbled. We then must learn that the just shall also live by faith, leaning on Christ.

Those who try to live the Christian life by self effort after salvation are the ones who backslide.. They fail miserably. That is right where God wants them. They find they must again throw themselves on God's mercy and admit their total helplessness. And God shows them a better way--to hear His voice and follow Him. To walk in obedience to His Spirit. In that way we walk by faith.

 

Galatians 3:7
The law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come we are no longer under a tutor.

I also have been thinking of the 10 lepers whom Jesus healed. He told them to go show themselves to the priests to be declaired clean. But one disobeyed Jesus. He came back and fell at His feet, worshipping Him. It occurred to him perhaps that Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus made him whole. I think that means that his sins were also forgiven. This one received more grace than the others and so he loved much. He received the grace to recognize the diety of Christ. The more grace we receive, the more we love; and the more grace and love we absorb the more we have to offer to others.

Sorry for wandering from the op.

[Guest Butero]

Those are valid points Willamina, but the bottom line is, whether we struggle within ourselves to live right or walk in the Spirit without any struggle, we still won't inherit the Kingdom of God if we do the sins mentioned in 1 Corinthians 6:9,10.  As such, our behavior does effect our salvation.  That is the only point I was making.  The biggest area of disagreement seems to be over how one lives the life, rather than the necessity of living the life?  You are not saying it is ok for a Christian to commit adultery, be a drunkard, be a thief, etc.  You are saying a Christian that walks in the Spirit won't do those things.  I have no problem with that. 

[GoldenEagle]

 

 

I would have serious reservations about saying that it doesn't matter WHY one follows the Bible or not. Perhaps this is the disconnect brother?

The Jews follow the law but the law without Messiah (Jesus) only condemns them.

 

A Christian is saved by God through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. There is sanctification and justification. The RESULT is the desire to follow God's law.

 

In other words good works ("living right") is a RESULT of salvation not a requirement for salvation.

Christians (under God's grace) are motivated by love while those who don't believe are motivated solely by fear (under God's justice).

The biggest issue I think that we can't agree upon is that it is possible to live perfect lives as Believers this side of heaven. Is this the case?

When we as Christians fall down (into temptation) God is good, gracious, merciful, slow to anger to pick us up (not because of anything we've done but because of what Jesus has done FOR us.)

 

What do you think?

 

I don't think it is quite as simple as that?  Whether you are speaking of Bill Gothard or the man who wrote this article, neither are rejecting Jesus, as most of the Jews have done. 

 

You said something I found very interesting.  You said good works is a result of salvation, not a requirement for salvation.  I agree it is a result of salvation, but how can you say it is not a requirement for salvation when you have a list of sins in front of you that will keep you from inheriting the Kingdom of God?  Are you saying that 1 Corinthians 6:9,10 doesn't mean what it says?  Are you saying you aren't required to be faithful to your wife to be a Christian, or at least to remain a Christian?  Are you saying a person can be a womanizer if he wants and be saved?  If the man does cheat, are you saying he isn't really saved?  No matter how you phrase things, the results are the same.   

 

1.  An adulterer won't inherit the Kingdom of God.

2.  One man is a Christian and doesn't commit adultery as a result of his faith, so he is fine.

3.  One man is a Christian and doesn't commit adultery out of fear of not inheriting the Kingdom of God, so he is fine.

4.  One man is a Christian and commits adultery because he realizes he is saved by faith and not under the law.  He is not fine, and those on your side of this argument would say he was never really saved.

5.  One man is a Christian and commits adultery because he is overcome by lust, but is fearful of judgment.  He is not fine, but because he is fearful of hell for breaking God's laws, those on your side would say he is a legalist who is in trouble because he isn't capable of living right.  He needs grace.

 

Bottom line is that the sin of adultery will keep you out of heaven, so it doesn't matter what your belief system is with regard to legalism.  Some keep the law out of fear and some because it is the right thing to do.  Some break the law with no fear and some break the law while scared to death, but both are hell bound.  The only thing I see taking place here is one person feels he is superior to the other because of why he follows scripture. 

 

Now, lets look at what you said about God's mercy.  Lets take the guy who has been a Christian for years, and falls into an affair with his secretary.  Can he continue in that affair and inherit the Kingdom of God?  Would you be willing to judge that man and say he was never saved, because in context, the passage says, "such were some of you," in past tense?  If the guy was born again, would you say it was impossible for him to cheat because he is a new creature in Christ, and Christians cannot sin?  I see all kinds of contradictions here. 

 

 

One is saved 100% by the atoning sacrifice made by Jesus Christ at the cross. Once a person become a Believer he or she in my estimation can't help but doing good ("good works") as the Spirit lives inside of them. Sometimes that is radical change and other times it is more bit by bit (baby steps). Like Willamina I believe a Christian who walks in the Spirit will not do these things. As far as going against Scripture and saying alcoholism, adultary, fornication, etc. is okay no I'm not saying that. I'm not sure why this has been your argument the whole time? I agree that these apply to Christians today. You are arguing against something I have not stated. Yet I'm very curious...

Re: God's mercy - Again, you bring up another extreme case with a Christian who has an affair with his secretary. So let me ask you this... The man get's divorced as is often the case and marries the secretary. They both repent of their sin... Are you saying there is no mercy or forgiveness for them from God and they are doomed to Hell? Again curious.

Edited November 15, 2013 by GoldenEagle

[GoldenEagle]

I don't think we can follow God's laws 100 percent either.  We can do our best, and should, but we all have evil thoughts that defile.  We all need grace.  The issue to me is whether or not you can be a Christian and continue to commit obvious willful transgressions like cheating on our spouse or being a drunkard? 

 

 

We agree in red and bold. Praise God!

 

Please define willfull transgressions? So like cheating continuously or one time? Staying sober for 15 years and having a relapse or being an alcholic for 30+ years?

[GoldenEagle]

The problem with trying to define legalism is that legalism isnt a biblical term.  There is no word for it in the Bible.  What the Bible teaches that no one is saved by good works. There is nothing redemptive about good works.  Our good works will be rewarded but they don't offer any insurance against hell.  There appears that some people are taking what Paul is saying about rewards for service and confusing them with salvation which is a free gift and has absolutely nothing to do with good works in terms of how salvation is obtained or how it is kept.

 

I agree with you brother.

[GoldenEagle]

 

Choosing to keep the law of Moses won't save you because you can't fully keep it.  The other reason is original sin.  We all need grace.  We all have sinful thoughts or bad attitudes from time to time.  You are saved by grace, but you can't continue in sin that grace will abound.  The passage in 1 Corinthians 6:9,10 makes it clear that if you continue in sinful behavior, you shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.  Of course, there is a difference in sins mentioned here, which are clearly sins unto death, and unintentional sins we may not even realize we have done until the Spirit reveals them to us.

 

I agree with you in bold brother

[GoldenEagle]

 

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1Co 6:9-10

 

This passage has been used alot in this thread but it has been torn from its immediate and literary context to reference an issue that Paul wasn't addressing.

 

Starting up at verse one which begins the context, Paul is addressing a problem with the Christians at the Corinthian church taking their internal disptutes and having them decided before secular magistrates.   Paul in verses 1-8 exhorts the believers at Corinth not to take one another to court but to settle their disputes in-house. 

 

Paul's ground and basis for this is the fact that the gross immorality of the city of Corinth had infected everyone right up to those who governed the city.  Corinth was considered the most immoral city in the world at that time.    Paul's point is that you, who will one day judge angels are taking your disputes before people who will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

Paul is not warning the Corinthians as if they were themselves committing these sins, but he is exhorting them that fornicators,  idolaters, adulterers,effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, extortioners will inherit the Kingdom of God and therefore, they have no business ruling and passing judgment in the affairs of the church.

 

Paul is not warning them that if they participate in these sins, they will lose their salvation.  In verse 11, he obviously assumes they are not living in that manner.  He says, "you used to live that way, but now you have been washed, justified and sanctified."  HIs point is that they should not be bringing a reproach upon Christ by airing their dirty laundry in front of the heathen.

It doesn't matter Shiloh.  He still says that people that do those things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.  Even if his intent was not a warning, he still made this point clear. 

 

I would disagree with you Butero and I think Shiloh really brings up some good points. I think context (the passages around the verses being discuss) always matters when looking at Scripture in order not to super-impose our own ideas on the text. Otherwise there is a tendency to misunderstand the text.

For example. If I say "Please understand that I believe stealing is a sin. I would never approve someone stealing. Some people say 'Stealing is is okay.' But I believe the Bible is clear that stealing is sinful." Taken out of context you could easily say I said "Stealing is okay" but would completely miss the meaning or essence of what I was trying to communicate.

1. Paul is addressing a problem with Christians at the Corinthian church: taking matters of the church to public and lost (non-Believers) leaders of the city.

 

2. The context of this passage is consistent with this statement by Shiloh:

"Paul is not warning the Corinthians as if they were themselves committing these sins, but he is exhorting them that fornicators,  idolaters, adulterers,effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, extortioners will inherit the Kingdom of God and therefore, they have no business ruling and passing judgment in the affairs of the church."

[GoldenEagle]

I started to address legalism, but even Shiloh acknowledges it is not a Biblical term, so why should I care what different people think it means?  It is just a term people created to attack anyone that comes against something they are doing.  It is a way of silencing those who speak against sin. 

 

Legalism is also used to speak against ideas/doctrines that take the Bible out of context, add to Scripture, take it out of context, or when people change Scripture to suit their own devices (need for control over church members or enforcing personal convictions on others for example).

[GoldenEagle]

I am one person who has refrained from sin do to the fear of God. I was not afraid of hell. I was afraid of God's chastening. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

And Butero, several times you have stated the Galatians 5:21 version, that those who PRACTICE such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if these are not chastened by God, yielding the peacable fruit of righteousness, it means they were never His because we are told that He chastens those He loves, His sons.

Galatians 5:16 ALT

But I say to you be walking about [conducting yourself] in the Spirit and you[all] will by no means fulfill [or carry out] the lust of the flesh. V. 18 But since you[all] are led by the Spirit, you'all are not under the law.

So the answer to the whole question is to walk in the Spirit, which Christians are eager to do because of our gratitude for God's grace.

It does not require self effort or striving. It is just seeking God's guidance.

I have been contemplating the woman who washed Christ's feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. She anointed them with the costly perfume. Jesus said that he who is forgiven much loves much. Sometimes we only have to realize how evil our sin is to be forgiven much. We must see it through God's eyes and not compare ourselves with others. It is not just our sins, but our being sinners that is forgiven. So we drink in God's grace, His unmerited favor. We are humbled. We then must learn that the just shall also live by faith, leaning on Christ.

Those who try to live the Christian life by self effort after salvation are the ones who backslide.. They fail miserably. That is right where God wants them. They find they must again throw themselves on God's mercy and admit their total helplessness. And God shows them a better way--to hear His voice and follow Him. To walk in obedience to His Spirit. In that way we walk by faith.

 

Galatians 3:7

The law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come we are no longer under a tutor.

I also have been thinking of the 10 lepers whom Jesus healed. He told them to go show themselves to the priests to be declaired clean. But one disobeyed Jesus. He came back and fell at His feet, worshipping Him. It occurred to him perhaps that Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus made him whole. I think that means that his sins were also forgiven. This one received more grace than the others and so he loved much. He received the grace to recognize the diety of Christ. The more grace we receive, the more we love; and the more grace and love we absorb the more we have to offer to others.

Sorry for wandering from the op.

 

 

Praise God for your life and testimony sister.

I agree as Christians our desire (given by the Holy Spirit living in us) will be to eagerly walk in the Spirit in grattitude for God's grace. That about sums it up I'd say.

 

I agree that our own efforts are in vain. When we rely on our own strength we do tend to backslide.

That is a great reminder of the 10 leppers and the one who returned to worship/thank Jesus.

 

"The more grace we receive, the more we love; and the more grace and love we absorb the more we have to offer to others." Amen sister!

 

God bless,

GE