grudges against the churches

[Sevenseas]

I find it interesting that we can have bad experiences in just about any other context but it doesn't stop them from continuing to engage in things that they once had bad experiences with.   But with church, they have some bad experiences and they throw in the towel and of course, the bad experience was entirely someone else's fault.   It just doesn't wash.

 

That's pretty much my take on it.

 

I could list bad experiences to make a person's hair stand on end...but I know that church, not the building, is ordained by God.  Is house church acceptable?  Yes...I really like those actually but not if it is simply some believers who got together because they had a falling out with the Pastor or something.  That, does not make a good foundation.

 

I've 'seen' church from both sides of the platform and people can get riled up over the most unlikely thing....personal insult is not really a reason to quit church.  If it was, I would never go to a church again.  Take one for the team....people need to grow and expand their thought process from I, I , and me to I am part of the Body of Christ and I go to meet in public with others who are also like as I am.

 

Divide and conquer is a very effective weapon

[Guest MotherJen]

Stirring again.

 

There are many people who seem to have grudges against the churches out there. Some of them go beyond condemning a single church and translate their issues to all churches. It is this group Im asking about. For those who condemn all churches based on things they were offended by, what is the appropriate response? What should those who are offended do? 

 

I'm not sure I understand without more context.

 

But in life, sometimes you don't have to respond, you only have to listen.

As for what people should do- they should turn to the Lord and stop relying on man. You can never have too much prayer and Bible study. Trust in God, not in man to find your answers.

[Qnts2]

Stirring again.

 

There are many people who seem to have grudges against the churches out there. Some of them go beyond condemning a single church and translate their issues to all churches. It is this group Im asking about. For those who condemn all churches based on things they were offended by, what is the appropriate response? What should those who are offended do? 

 

I need to go back years ago for my story. Years ago, I worked for a large corporation and knew several Christians who also worked there. (By the way, I was a member of a Charismatic church). In my conversations with two ladies, they mentioned having questions and needing to go to their Pastor for answers. Since these questions were more theological, and questions on meaning of scripture, I said that scripture says 'My sheep know my voice', so they should read the scripture, and then pray to God to help them understand. With the indwelling Holy Spirit, and sheep knowing Gods voice, which to me means, we can 'hear' from God since we know His voice, I believe God desires us to look to Him to lead us, and teach us.

 

Well, these young ladies went home and read scripture, prayed for understanding, and came back convinced that God will answer and that they can hear from God. Unknown to me, these ladies pastor claimed to be the annointed leader, who heard from God for those He pastored. He heard about what I told them, and came after me. He spread to other pastors all kinds of stories about me. I was working in a small group dedicated to sharing the gospel with the Jewish people, and the pastor went to one person who was part of the group and part of his church, to get me kicked out.

 

This pastor taught and worked to spread the shepherding movement to the other pastors. When it hit my church, I listened and thought there was something wrong with the theology of the shepherding movement, but as I watched everyone falling in line, I was struggling to think, how could all of these people be wrong, and I'm the only one who sees this as bad. My own pastor became friends with the pastor of the ladies, and started to pressure me to 'toe the line' because if I didn't it was clear I was rebellious, had a Jezebel spirit, was going against God's annointed servants (touch not Gods annointed), failing to submit to the Godly leaders, etc etc etc.   Shepherding spread quickly to every Pentacostal and Charismatic church in my area.     

 

At that time, I started to be involved on the internet, and came across a Charismatic forum which happened to have at least 3 pastors. In the process of conversations, I mentioned the shepherding movement in my area, and just about everyone on that forum were shocked. I guess the originators of the shepherding movement had been challenged, many had shown severe controlling error in the movement, a lot of abuses, and even the originators had repented and renounced shepherding. Those on the forum thought it was gone. Well, I had never heard anyone say that the shepherding movement was really bad. I thought it was, but I was talking to the first people who thought the same as I did and realized that there were a whole lot of people out there who had come against that teaching.

 

Now, one of the pastors told me something which is absolutely true, but I never realized it before. Someone might do something offensive, but being offended is our choice. We do not have to be victoms. We do not have to be offended. We can choose not to be offended.

 

So, is it possible for a whole bunch of churches to be wrong? Yes. Is it possible to not be aware of what other churches do or believe? yes. I thought I was alone in my belief that something was seriously wrong with the shepherding movement. I thought all churches practiced this.

 

Guess what? In my area, the churches which were shepherding no longer say they are part of the shepherding movement. They are now a part of the 'New Apostolic Reformation' movement. And guess what? Their teaching has not changed. Some of the pastors now claim to be bishops, and a couple claim to be apostles. Of course, everyone is to have a bishop or apostle and submit to them, the same way as the shepherding movement. But, to gain unity, they have now joined in a group with non-Charistmatic pastors. And this group has agreed that they have to have a united front against 'church hoppers' and trouble makers, like me. (Yes, that first pastor who got angry at me way back when, is one of the leaders of the pastor group, and one who claims to be an apostle, and still dislikes me intensely.) So, I am banned from almost every church in my area. There are two or three exceptions which have not joined their group. One church is an emergent church, one is IFB, and the third is seeker friendly.   

[Guest Butero]

I have had bad experiences at restaurants, but I still continue to go out eat.   I have had bad experiences at work, but I still go to work.  I have had bad experiences with money, but I still use money.  I have had bad experiences with my family, but I still love and visit them.  I have had bad experiences at department stores and hardware stores but I still go shopping.  I have had bad experiences with my automobile but I still drive it.  

 

I find it interesting that we can have bad experiences in just about any other context but it doesn't stop them from continuing to engage in things that they once had bad experiences with.   But with church, they have some bad experiences and they throw in the towel and of course, the bad experience was entirely someone else's fault.   It just doesn't wash.

I get your point Shiloh, but if you go to a restaurant and have several bad experiences, you won't likely keep going there and subjecting yourself to the same bad food or service.  Then you go to another restaurant, and have the same thing, and the cycle continues.  Over time, you might stop eating out. 

 

I have seen a lot of things over the years at many churches that have soured me on going, but I am not anti-church, and I am not saying we should give up on finding a good church.  I believe there are good churches out there.  I think my problem is more with me than the church.  I have gotten tired of trying to find a good church when I have been continually disappointed time and again.  It is hard to get motivated to seek yet another church.  It would not be fair to lump all churches into the same mold, or to blame others for where I am at, but I have just gotten tired of the insincerity and compromise for numbers I have seen, as well as all the behind the scenes turmoil.  I admit I am looking for close to perfection, and inside I know that doesn't exist, so I will admit the biggest problem lies with me.  Once I could see the ugly side of things as they really exist, going to church has become a chore rather than something I enjoy. 

[missmuffet]

I have had bad experiences at restaurants, but I still continue to go out eat.   I have had bad experiences at work, but I still go to work.  I have had bad experiences with money, but I still use money.  I have had bad experiences with my family, but I still love and visit them.  I have had bad experiences at department stores and hardware stores but I still go shopping.  I have had bad experiences with my automobile but I still drive it.  

 

I find it interesting that we can have bad experiences in just about any other context but it doesn't stop them from continuing to engage in things that they once had bad experiences with.   But with church, they have some bad experiences and they throw in the towel and of course, the bad experience was entirely someone else's fault.   It just doesn't wash.

Going to a restaurant and going to Church are two different things.I think that those who choose not to attend church should be left alone and not judged.Their are too many threads pointing fingers at those who do not go to a church and that is judgment.What does the Bible say about judging others?It is not required from God.It is a personal choice.

[ayin jade]

Its one thing to be against going to a church that has bad doctrine. It is another to hold grudges and claim ALL churches are bad as a result. Which often (obviously not in your case qnts) is the result of someone being corrected and taking offense at the correction no matter how right that correction was. 

 

My parents quit the church altogether as a result of some bad things decades ago. In one case, my parents were asked to leave my brother at home because he is deaf. In another case, my dad as a deacon made a home visit to a member who had just gotten out of the hospital. My dad was asked to make sure he get the tithe from this member. When dad was there, he saw how sick the man still was and instead just had a nice visit. The church leaders removed dad from being deacon because he didnt get the money. One can make a case for that being the correct thing to do, in that dad disobeyed the church leaders. I am however proud of dad for doing the right thing by the sick member and just visiting. 

 

These two things stayed with me as a child and through adulthood. I was turned off from the church for a long time. Later, when I got saved, I attended a small church. They pushed me into playing an active role in the church even though I felt I was too new a believer to participate. I helped plan the childrens bible studies. I later found out that some folks didnt think I should have done anything. No one told me to my face though. They only gossiped behind my back about it. Until finally one person told my hubby. I was livid. They pushed me into it then had the nerve to say I shouldnt have done that. I quit that church fast. 

 

For many years I avoided the church. I grew as a believer but I wanted no part of the church. I knew I was wrong but couldnt get past my hurt to participate. Finally I found a couple of churches I felt comfortable in attending. Large churches I could hide in and not get hurt. But I refused to join. Refused to participate. Again, I knew my relationship here with the church wasnt right. I kept trying. Finally I found a church that is family. Warm, loving, encouraging. Helping all of us in the church to grow in our faith, in our walks, being supportive in times of need and yet still encouraging us to walk the walk of a believer. I want to be a participant in that church. 

 

Those of you who condemn the church because of the actions of some, dont give up on the church. Its not the church that causes problems. Its the people. Keep looking for a church. The Lord instituted it for a reason. 

[Guest shiloh357]

 

I have had bad experiences at restaurants, but I still continue to go out eat.   I have had bad experiences at work, but I still go to work.  I have had bad experiences with money, but I still use money.  I have had bad experiences with my family, but I still love and visit them.  I have had bad experiences at department stores and hardware stores but I still go shopping.  I have had bad experiences with my automobile but I still drive it.  

 

I find it interesting that we can have bad experiences in just about any other context but it doesn't stop them from continuing to engage in things that they once had bad experiences with.   But with church, they have some bad experiences and they throw in the towel and of course, the bad experience was entirely someone else's fault.   It just doesn't wash.

I get your point Shiloh, but if you go to a restaurant and have several bad experiences, you won't likely keep going there and subjecting yourself to the same bad food or service.  Then you go to another restaurant, and have the same thing, and the cycle continues.  Over time, you might stop eating out. 

 

I have seen a lot of things over the years at many churches that have soured me on going, but I am not anti-church, and I am not saying we should give up on finding a good church.  I believe there are good churches out there.  I think my problem is more with me than the church.  I have gotten tired of trying to find a good church when I have been continually disappointed time and again.  It is hard to get motivated to seek yet another church.  It would not be fair to lump all churches into the same mold, or to blame others for where I am at, but I have just gotten tired of the insincerity and compromise for numbers I have seen, as well as all the behind the scenes turmoil.  I admit I am looking for close to perfection, and inside I know that doesn't exist, so I will admit the biggest problem lies with me.  Once I could see the ugly side of things as they really exist, going to church has become a chore rather than something I enjoy. 

 

I also mentioned having bad experiences with family. Why focus on just one scenario that I offered???  

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

 

I am not part of a church because it makes me feel holy not to be, I long for a true body of believers, but I have not found one.  I have found judgement and no love at all.  There is nothing I want more than to belong again

 

 

 

I would like to focus on this statement. What this represents is unforgiveness, not holiness.  You claim that you have found nothing but judgment and no love, but you are walking in unforgiveness and judgment, yourself.   You have pronouced judgment on others and in your unforgiveness, you consider yourself to be holy but in fact, what you have said demonstrates the antithesis of what holiness is.

 

It amounts to pursuing Christianity on your own terms, not a pursuit of Christ.

[rebbell]

Anytime one goes "against the grain" of the organized church (made with hands) they will come against you, maybe even kill you. Look what happened to Jesus. HE spoke against the hypocrisies within organized church religion and they (the high priest and elders of the people) hated HIM. And they sought how they might kill HIM.

 

Go in, sit down, and shut up.... if you don't, you will be perscuted and called the devil.

Faith without works is dead.

When is believers going to put faith to work and stand on the Word of GOD and believe in HIM?

 

HE told us in HIS Word what it takes to follow HIM.

 

I am not against the "church" but I do have a dislike and an earnest concern about the hypocrisies within those walls.

 

Jesus told us when HE walked among us that the anti christ is already here.

People want to know, when is the anti christ coming?

The anti christ was here 2000 yrs ago and the anti christ is still here today. He is within the walls of the organized church religion.

It isn't the people of the world that is being decieved; it is the church goers that are continuing to eat the lies of the deciever.

 

Do I (you) love your brother enough to speak up when you hear the lies or do I (you) sit there and say nothing.

Faith without works is dead.

The body without the Spirit is dead.

There is alot of dead people sitting in those walls. Why? because the traditions of men are in control in there.

 

Yes, i too, am fed up with the lies. If it means I must physically die that blinded eyes will be opened, so be it.

My life or death does not belong to me. Whether we live or whether we die, we belong to the LORD. the Word says.

 

The Word says, We will offend many.

We are only offended by the Word of Truth if we are not in right standing with it (GOD).

 

Blessings to all

[Guest shiloh357]

Anytime one goes "against the grain" of the organized church (made with hands) they will come against you, maybe even kill you. Look what happened to Jesus. HE spoke against the hypocrisies within organized church religion and they (the high priest and elders of the people) hated HIM. And they sought how they might kill HIM.

 

Jesus could speak against the hypocrisies of the religious leaders because Jesus was never a hypocrite.  You are not Jesus.  There is not one of us reading this that has never been a hypocrite.  The very accusation of hypocrisy is in itself, hypocritical.

 

People speak against what they don't like about the church, and it usually comes down to a lot of people who don't like churches that don't allow them to validate their sin or don't accept the false teachings they are peddling.   No church, no denomination is perfect, but most of these critics are really just false teachers who pretend to speak for God when they don't.  

 

Go in, sit down, and shut up.... if you don't, you will be perscuted and called the devil.

 

Oh come on...  we don't need all of the drama. 

 

Faith without works is dead.

When is believers going to put faith to work and stand on the Word of GOD and believe in HIM?

 

HE told us in HIS Word what it takes to follow HIM.

 

And how exactly are we not doing this?  And who gave it to you to issue that judgment against the rest of us???  

 

I am not against the "church" but I do have a dislike and an earnest concern about the hypocrisies within those walls.

 

What hypocrisies, specifically???

 

Jesus told us when HE walked among us that the anti christ is already here.

 

Would you cite the verses where Jesus, Himself, mentions the anti-Christ?? 

 

People want to know, when is the anti christ coming?

The anti christ was here 2000 yrs ago and the anti christ is still here today. He is within the walls of the organized church religion.

It isn't the people of the world that is being decieved; it is the church goers that are continuing to eat the lies of the deciever.

Do I (you) love your brother enough to speak up when you hear the lies or do I (you) sit there and say nothing.

What lies are you talking about?   Specifically, can you name all of the lies that we are currently believing???

Faith without works is dead.

The body without the Spirit is dead.

There is alot of dead people sitting in those walls. Why? because the traditions of men are in control in there.

 

Which traditions are you referring to, specifically?

 

Yes, i too, am fed up with the lies. If it means I must physically die that blinded eyes will be opened, so be it.

 

LOL,  oh, the drama...   It was because of church-going Christians that you have the freedom to speak your mind without fear of reprisal.  It was Christians who laid down their lives to provide freedom for people like you to speak your mind.