The Tongues- sign of the Holy Ghost or a gift?

[Openly Curious]

 

 

Speaking in other tongues was the primary manifestation of the Holy Spirit given to the disciples of Jesus to show the Jews gathered in Jerusalem for the Feast of Weeks (Pentecost) that Jesus was the Messiah. Speaking in tongues was likewise the manifestation of the Holy Spirit given to the first Gentile converts to show to Peter and the Jews with him that God was indeed granting the Gentiles His gift of salvation.

 

I believe these were two special occasions with the need for a dramatic sign.

 

In 1 Cor. 12, tongues are listed as one of many gifts, and with that list is a mention about "some are given" to each gift. So perhaps it is valid that not all will be granted this gift?

and you could be right however you failed to explain acts 19 : Acts 19:1-7

19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7 And all the men were about twelve.

KJV

which fits neither of your doctrines on tongues

 

 

 

For the record, I have and practice the gift of tongues. I believe it is an awesome gift! But I have also been exposed to the damaging effects of believers shoving the gift down the throats of others. While it is good for us to encourage others to be open to the various gifts, the Father never meant for us to tear each other apart over them. And the same applies to those who claim tongues are not for today, is demonic, is a fraud, etc. - it's damaging to the body.

 

 

I agree Nebula it is a gift and who goes around attacking people to receive a gift.

[His_disciple3]

I am not attacking the gifts but rather false doctrine concerning the gifts. Not all will speak in tongues so tongues can not be the evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit or being filled with Him, that is what the thread is about

[Openly Curious]

Acts 19:1-7 - AND IT came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,  He sid unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?  And they said unto him, We have not so much  as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.  And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized?  And they said, Unto John's baptism.  Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.  When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.  And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost  came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

 

There are two baptisms being spoken of in this passage of scripture.  One is the baptism unto repentance which is referring to John who was the forrunner of Christ.  John preached repentance and belief in Jesus who was the Saviour of the world.  Those who believed on Jesus and repented of their sins where then baptized in water.  Those who received salvation by believing on Christ had an inward work of the Holy Spirit as it speaks about in.......

 

Romans 6:1-6 - WHAT SHALL we say then?  Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?  God forbid.  How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we should walk in newness of life.  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.  Knowing this that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed that henceforth we should not serve sin.....

 

When we are save through faith by grace an inward work of the Spirit happens as we are made a new creature in Christ and we are set free from sins bondage so that we can walk in the newness of live we have been given through Jesus work on the cross.  Water baptism is an outward sign of what has already taken place within the believers life by God's Spirit when they called on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and were saved.  Being obedient to be baptized after repentance is a "sign" (evidence) that you have received the gift of salvation (eternal life).  This was the message that John preached the baptism of repentance.  After the people repented and believed on Christ Jesus John then baptized them in water. 

These twele men that Paul ran across testified to the fact that they were believers in Christ and had been baptized in water as John had preached. 

 

The second baptism that Paul is speaking of in the text of scripture in Acts to these believers.  Is about a second baptism being the baptism of the Holy Ghost.  This baptism is also a gift.  The men Paul was speaking to said that they never even heard about this baptism of the Holy Ghost but heard only of John's baptism.  The "sign" or evidence of one receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost is that they will speak in tongues.

 

In receiving the gift of salvation through faith by grace and accepting Christ as your personal Saviour and Lord is again a seperate gift from God.  Receiving salvation has nothing to do with tongues therefore those who receive the gift of eternal life do not speak in tongues as a sign of their salvation that is NOT a biblical doctrine.

 

In receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost those who do receive this gift will speak in tongues as tongues is the sign.  Not every one will speak in tongues as not all for whatever reasons have not received the gift of the Holy Ghost.  But those who have received the gift of the Holy Ghost will speak in tongues.  Receiving this gift of the Holy Ghost has nothing to do with one's salvation and should not be confused with the receiving the gift of eternal life.  The evidence or sign of that will be water baptism following their repentance. 

[His_disciple3]

Eph 4:4-5

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

KJV

here are some references in scripture of being filled with the Holy Ghost, but no mention of speaking in tongues: Acts 4:8, 7:55, 9:17-18, 13:9 and 13:52

here are some references of receiving the Holy Ghost but again no mention of speaking in tongues John 20:22 and Acts 8:17.

there are two instances in scriptures as you say that people receive the gift of tongues and some have made it THE EVIDENCE.

1 Cor 12:1-13

12 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

KJV

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, this sorta blows a hole in your false doctrine that not all will receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit, the receiving of the Holy Spirit or the Gift of the Holy Spirit from God is for every believer . the Holy Spirit of God dwells in all believers. The GIfts of the Holy Spirit comes with the fulfilling of that Holy Spirit, but then again there is no one Sign or "The EVIDENCE" of receiving The Baptism of the Holy Spirit. for the gifts are clearly divided out

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

KJV

You will know them by their fruits( spiritual fruits not Spiritual gifts) Paul made this clear discussing the Gifts, If I have the Gifts but have not charity (fruit) I am nothing

The gifts are no proof of anything for there were some that had the gifts however they were not allowed into Heaven, they were not even saved, now these aren't some that were saved and had received the gifts but had fallen away( which is another false Doctrine) But Jesus said "I NEVER KNEW YOU" Never! not I had known you but now I never Knew You. At Pentecost it was preached " I will pour out my spirit on all flesh", all flesh, not just the flesh of my people but all flesh. how else will the anti-Christ deceive by doing signs and wonders ? ok so God used them a couple of times to show the disciples and jews that He had given the Gift of salvation to the gentiles. But now that we know that we no longer need the proof, God used brimstone and fire as a sign once to show that he didn't like Evil. He Slew the first born male child of the Egyptians as a sign to show that He was greater than their god.

[nebula]

I am not attacking the gifts but rather false doctrine concerning the gifts. Not all will speak in tongues so tongues can not be the evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit or being filled with Him, that is what the thread is about

 

I never said it was "the" evidence of anything.

 

Do you deny that tongues have been used on occasion as a sign?

[His_disciple3]

I am not attacking the gifts but rather false doctrine concerning the gifts. Not all will speak in tongues so tongues can not be the evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit or being filled with Him, that is what the thread is about

 

I never said it was "the" evidence of anything.

 

Do you deny that tongues have been used on occasion as a sign?

see post # 35

[Butch5]

 

 

Speaking in tongues---

 

 

 

I'm from a very strict Pentecostal upbringing and from day one into this faith I've been told and taught that the speaking of tongues is a sign of the Holy Spirits 'touching or baptizing' someone.

I believe and engage actively in speaking the mysterious language and enjoy my time in the Spirit but a fundamental question that is really hitting me again and again is that to what extent is this belief that only speaking in tongues can truly signify the presence of the Holy Ghost?

 

Acts 2 mentions that when the Holy Ghost had come upon the apostles they spoke in tongues. Do we take this as the final sign of the Holy Ghost then? After some studying I think there might be a very fundamental flaw in this assumption. There are many brothers and sisters in the Christian faith who lead holy-lives and in submission to God but don't necessarily speak in tongues. Does that mean the Holy Ghost avoids these people and hasn't touched them? No, I feel it obviously doesn't! The Holy Spirit touches and enters any and every believer who asks of Him to do so with a humble heart. Regardless of one denomination or belief system, the Holy Ghost has been given to all of us and touches us differently. To some it causes the spirit to break free from the limitations of the human speech and break into spiritual Glossolalia and xeno-Glossolalia, to others it causes tremors in the body and heating sensations, still to others many other diverse signs. I feel we do wrong to limit the presence of the Holy Ghost to just the one sign of speaking in tongues. I know just so many fellow Christians who don't speak tongues but I find them to be more spiritual and anointed than I am as a tongue speaker.

 

I Think this is a question worth asking and if any has an answer please do clarify me. I may be wrong but my question isn't.

 

Thanks in advance to anyone who answers!

 

Michael   

Hi Michael,

 

Paul said that tongues was a sign for unbelievers, not believers. It's my understanding that the gift of tongues was a first century gift given by the Holy Spirit to some believers as a sign to the unbelieving Jews. The Scriptures show us that it was a sign of coming judgment (destruction of Jerusalem) on the Jews for rejecting Christ.  Paul also said that tongues would come to an end. Since it was sign of coming judgment it would seem that after that judgment the sign would no longer be necessary and would as Paul said, end. So, to answer your question, no. 

 

 

God does not use the gifts of the Spirit as signs of coming judgment that is not what they are used and given for.  There was a large number of believers on the day of Pentecost in the upper room waiting on the gift of the Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit filled the room and they were filled with the Spirit and spoke in tongues.  There were no unbelievers there in the upper room.  So you can't say that it was just a sign to the unbelievers.   

 

Paul is the one who said tongues was a sign to unbelievers not believers. However, the sign wasn't to those in the upper room, it was to the Jews. The Jewish leadership should have immediately thought of Isaiah 28 when they saw the apostles speaking in tongues. You used the present tense to speak of the gifts, are you referring to the natural or supernatural gifts or both? Paul told the Corinthians that the supernatural gifts would end. Also, the supernatural gifts were given in the presence of an apostle, usually through the laying on of hands. The apostles are no longer here. 

[nebula]

OK, post #35.

 

You will know them by their fruits( spiritual fruits not Spiritual gifts) Paul made this clear discussing the Gifts, If I have the Gifts but have not charity (fruit) I am nothing
The gifts are no proof of anything for there were some that had the gifts however they were not allowed into Heaven, they were not even saved, now these aren't some that were saved and had received the gifts but had fallen away( which is another false Doctrine) But Jesus said "I NEVER KNEW YOU" Never! not I had known you but now I never Knew You. At Pentecost it was preached " I will pour out my spirit on all flesh", all flesh, not just the flesh of my people but all flesh. how else will the anti-Christ deceive by doing signs and wonders ? ok so God used them a couple of times to show the disciples and jews that He had given the Gift of salvation to the gentiles. But now that we know that we no longer need the proof, God used brimstone and fire as a sign once to show that he didn't like Evil. He Slew the first born male child of the Egyptians as a sign to show that He was greater than their god.

 

Ugh! I never said the gift of tongues were "proof".

 

But I can't believe you deny how the disciples speaking in other languages were a sign to the Jews gathered in Jerusalem from all over the world. Peter even said as much:

 

"This is the fulfillment of . . . ." Have you forgotten the prophecy he quoted?

 

Jesus even made note that the miracles He performed we are sign (evidence) of who He is. Shall I post the Scriptures for you, or do you recall them?

 

To degrade the gifts as meaningless and worthless beyond the initial outpouring is highly grievous.

[His_disciple3]

OK, post #35.

You will know them by their fruits( spiritual fruits not Spiritual gifts) Paul made this clear discussing the Gifts, If I have the Gifts but have not charity (fruit) I am nothing

The gifts are no proof of anything for there were some that had the gifts however they were not allowed into Heaven, they were not even saved, now these aren't some that were saved and had received the gifts but had fallen away( which is another false Doctrine) But Jesus said "I NEVER KNEW YOU" Never! not I had known you but now I never Knew You. At Pentecost it was preached " I will pour out my spirit on all flesh", all flesh, not just the flesh of my people but all flesh. how else will the anti-Christ deceive by doing signs and wonders ? ok so God used them a couple of times to show the disciples and jews that He had given the Gift of salvation to the gentiles. But now that we know that we no longer need the proof, God used brimstone and fire as a sign once to show that he didn't like Evil. He Slew the first born male child of the Egyptians as a sign to show that He was greater than their god.

 

Ugh! I never said the gift of tongues were "proof".

 

But I can't believe you deny how the disciples speaking in other languages were a sign to the Jews gathered in Jerusalem from all over the world. Peter even said as much:

 

"This is the fulfillment of . . . ." Have you forgotten the prophecy he quoted?

 

Jesus even made note that the miracles He performed we are sign (evidence) of who He is. Shall I post the Scriptures for you, or do you recall them?

 

To degrade the gifts as meaningless and worthless beyond the initial outpouring is highly grievous.

proof what is a sign? evidence = proof I am not degrading anything except false doctrine. you want to quote Jesus let's try this one : Matt 16:4

4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

I pray in tongues myself, I believe the baptism of the Holy Ghost. I believe scripture when it say not forbid anyone to speak in tongues. But when you have people walk away from church because they have been told seeing they didn't speak in tongues they didn't get anything from God, or they feel like a second class Christian because they have never spoke in tongues. then something is wrong. after all I believe scriptures says that some will speak with tongues some will heal, some will interpret. Maybe the Holy Spirit blessed them with healing, but the Church say they didn't get anything because they didn't speak in tongues. and also the doctrine of the speaking tongues being the evidence, forces pastors to coach or teach people to speak in tongues,

KJV