Is 'soul sleep' doctrinal?

[Guest DRS81]

 

DRS81---Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Do you know what anointing is?

To really understand Rev 22:1-2, you would have to understand the love of the Holy Spirit so....

 

Another straw man?

 

Do you understand the seriousness of these questions Butch? Why am I asking these questions, are you at all curious.

 

Well would you look at that, another commentary that disagrees with you.

No sign of the word Ezekiel in...The river of life - Revelation 22:1-5 http://www.easyengli...elation-lbw.htm

What other scriptures do you have in your arsenal.

 

Should we assume that this commentary takes precedence over the Scriptures?

 

The commentary is explaining the scriptures Butch. Read it and learn something.

 

Of course it does, nonbelievers will all be judged at the great white judgment throne.

 

That’s irrelevant to question of whether they live apart from body.

 

No Butch, the argument started with Annihilationism. Did you forget? Judgment is not ceasing to exist.

[Butch5]

DRS81---Do you understand the seriousness of these questions Butch? Why am I asking these questions, are you at all curious.

 

I understand you’re not addressing the issue

 

The commentary is explaining the scriptures Butch. Read it and learn something.

 

It’s giving someone’s opinion of the passage.

 

No Butch, the argument started with Annihilationism. Did you forget? Judgment is not ceasing to exist.

 

It’s irrelevant. What happens to the wicked comes after judgment. A straw man is a good sign the opposition has no argument.

[Guest DRS81]

 

 

DRS81---Do you understand the seriousness of these questions Butch? Why am I asking these questions, are you at all curious.

 

I understand you’re not addressing the issue

 

I am addressing the issue, but in order for me to do that you would have to answer my questions. I don't know who you are and where you're coming from. Understanding Gen 2:9 and Rev 22:1-5 requires you answering these questions..1) Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and 2) Do you know what anointing is........Ignoring questions do not make them go away. It just adds to your suspicion of who you are. It's also very strange behavior, that I have to ask you the same questions for like two days to get anything out of you. What's the purpose of doing that? It's ok to be wrong in something, it's not the end of the world. And denying every single commentary in the world doesn't help either, because they all say the same thing Butch. What you're not understanding is that the tree of life in Genesis was a physical tree in the ground, but the source of life that came from the tree was from the throne of God in Heaven. Genesis 2:9 and Rev 22:1-5 are interconnected. NOTICE THE WORDS IN BOLD...

 

Gen 2:9 The LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground--trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

 

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary http://biblehub.com/genesis/2-9.htm

There was the tree of life in the midst of the garden. Of this man might eat and live. Christ is NOW to us the Tree of life, Re 2:7; 22:2; (DRS81 - When they say Christ is now to us the tree of life, they are talking about anointing and the river of life that flows inside the soul and spirit of the believer as we are now walking on this old earth. John 15:5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. - DRS81)

 

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible http://biblehub.com/genesis/2-9.htm

These trees may be an emblem of the saints, the trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, and made to grow by him through the influence of his Spirit and grace; and whom he plants in his gardens, the churches, and transplants into the HEAVENLY paradise, and are often compared to palm trees, cedars, olive trees, pomegranates, &c.

the tree of life ALSO in the midst of the garden; set there as in the most excellent place, where it might be most conspicuous, and to be come at; for before Adam sinned,

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible http://biblehub.com/genesis/2-9.htm

and it seems to have a further respect, even to eternal life; by Christ; for though it might not be a symbol of that life to Adam in his state of innocence, yet it became so after his fall: hence Christ is sometimes signified by the tree of life, Proverbs 3:18 who is not only the author of natural and spiritual life, but the giver of eternal life; the promise of it is in him, and the blessing itself; he has made way for it by his obedience, sufferings, and death, and is the way unto it; it is in his gift, and he bestows it on all his people, and it will lie greatly in the enjoyment of him.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary http://biblehub.com/genesis/2-9.htm

9. tree of life—so called from its symbolic character as a sign and seal of immortal life. Its prominent position where it must have been an object of daily observation and interest, was admirably fitted to keep man habitually in mind of God and futurity.

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The river of life - Revelation 22:1-5 http://www.easyenglish.info/bible-commentary/revelation-lbw.htm

 

Verse 1 The *angel showed John the river. This river flowed from the *throne of God and of the *Lamb. The river has clear and clean water. The water shone bright as it reflected the light. John calls it the water that gives life.

In John chapter 4, Jesus spoke to a woman at a well. He spoke about the water that he would give. The water that Jesus gives means *eternal life. The water in the river gives that life.

The river flows from the *throne. God and the *Lamb are the source of the river. All life comes from God. He gives *eternal life to those who belong to the *Lamb.

Verse 2 The river flowed through the main street. This is the river of life. Where the river flows, it gives life. This is an essential part of the New Jerusalem.

God made Adam and Eve. He put them in the garden called Eden. The tree that gives life was among the trees in the garden. When Adam *sinned, God did not allow him to eat of this tree (Genesis 2:9; Genesis 3:22-24). Adam could not have *eternal life in his *sinful state.

The tree that gives life will be in the New Jerusalem. It will be on both sides of the river. God’s people will eat the fruit of that tree. God has removed their *sins. The fruit will be good to eat.

John saw that the tree had plenty of fruit. It had 12 kinds of fruit. It had fresh fruit each month. What God provides is always new. He gives to us more than we ever need. The tree shows how generous God is to his people. They will eat and the food will satisfy them.

The leaves of the tree were for the health of the nations. So, the leaves were like medicine. This shows that there will be no lack of health. The life to come will be plentiful and perfect. The leaves of the tree help all people to enjoy life.

Verse 3 The trouble that *sin brought will not still exist. The *Lord has taken *sin and the effects of *sin away from us. Those who refused his kindness will not be in the new earth.

All who are in the city will be the servants of God and of the *Lamb. God and the *Lamb will rule the earth from their *throne in the city.

Verse 4 God would not allow even Moses to see his face (Exodus 33:20). Nobody could see God and live. But in the New Jerusalem, all will see the face of God. They will know him well. They will know his name. They will live with him and they will *worship him.

God’s people will have the name of God on their heads. The name means the character of God. It is as if each person will reflect the image of God. They will have a perfect character, like Jesus. They will see him as he is (1 John 3:2).

Verse 5 There will be no night there, because God will be always present. The *Lord God provides the light in that place. The new earth will not have days and nights. It will be day all the time (Zechariah 14:7). It seems that people will not still need to sleep.

Those who live in the New Jerusalem will rule as kings with God.

 

 

The commentary is explaining the scriptures Butch. Read it and learn something.

 

It’s giving someone’s opinion of the passage.

 

So you are disagreeing with what commentary says about Gen 2:9? Isn't that a bit of stretch?

 

 

No Butch, the argument started with Annihilationism. Did you forget? Judgment is not ceasing to exist.

 

It’s irrelevant. What happens to the wicked comes after judgment. A straw man is a good sign the opposition has no argument.

 

After judgment they face their punishment. That's what judgment is Butch.

[Butch5]

DRS81---I am addressing the issue, but in order for me to do that you would have to answer my questions. Understanding Gen 2:9 and Rev 22:1-5 requires you answering these questions..1) Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and 2) Do you know what anointing is........Ignoring questions do not make them go away. It just adds to your suspicion of who you are. It's also very strange behavior, that I have to ask you the same questions for like two days to get anything out of you. What's the purpose of doing that? It's ok to be wrong in something, it's not the end of the world. And denying every single commentary in the world doesn't help either, because they all say the same thing Butch. What you're not understanding is that the tree of life in Genesis was a physical tree in the ground, but the source of life that came from the tree was from the throne of God in Heaven. Genesis 2:9 and Rev 22:1-5 are interconnected. NOTICE THE WORDS IN BOLD...

Gen 2:9 The LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground--trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary http://www.easyengli...elation-lbw.htm

Verse 1 The *angel showed John the river. This river flowed from the *throne of God and of the *Lamb. The river has clear and clean water. The water shone bright as it reflected the light. John calls it the water that gives life.

In John chapter 4, Jesus spoke to a woman at a well. He spoke about the water that he would give. The water that Jesus gives means *eternal life. The water in the river gives that life.

The river flows from the *throne. God and the *Lamb are the source of the river. All life comes from God. He gives *eternal life to those who belong to the *Lamb.

Verse 2 The river flowed through the main street. This is the river of life. Where the river flows, it gives life. This is an essential part of the New Jerusalem.

God made Adam and Eve. He put them in the garden called Eden. The tree that gives life was among the trees in the garden. When Adam *sinned, God did not allow him to eat of this tree (Genesis 2:9; Genesis 3:22-24). Adam could not have *eternal life in his *sinful state.

The tree that gives life will be in the New Jerusalem. It will be on both sides of the river. God’s people will eat the fruit of that tree. God has removed their *sins. The fruit will be good to eat.

John saw that the tree had plenty of fruit. It had 12 kinds of fruit. It had fresh fruit each month. What God provides is always new. He gives to us more than we ever need. The tree shows how generous God is to his people. They will eat and the food will satisfy them.

The leaves of the tree were for the health of the nations. So, the leaves were like medicine. This shows that there will be no lack of health. The life to come will be plentiful and perfect. The leaves of the tree help all people to enjoy life.

Verse 3 The trouble that *sin brought will not still exist. The *Lord has taken *sin and the effects of *sin away from us. Those who refused his kindness will not be in the new earth.

All who are in the city will be the servants of God and of the *Lamb. God and the *Lamb will rule the earth from their *throne in the city.

Verse 4 God would not allow even Moses to see his face (Exodus 33:20). Nobody could see God and live. But in the New Jerusalem, all will see the face of God. They will know him well. They will know his name. They will live with him and they will *worship him.

God’s people will have the name of God on their heads. The name means the character of God. It is as if each person will reflect the image of God. They will have a perfect character, like Jesus. They will see him as he is (1 John 3:2).

Verse 5 There will be no night there, because God will be always present. The *Lord God provides the light in that place. The new earth will not have days and nights. It will be day all the time (Zechariah 14:7). It seems that people will not still need to sleep.

Those who live in the New Jerusalem will rule as kings with God.

Just because you found a few commentators who come to the Scriptures with presuppositions and impose them on their commentary doesn’t change the Scriptures. If quoted a bunch of Catholic commentators I’m sure I could get several that claim to prove the doctrine of Purgatory. However, that doesn’t make the doctrine true. What makes a doctrine true is having it “TAUGHT” in the Scriptures. Go through your commentaries and see where they give you Scripture proving that man can exist outside of the body.

Here’s something for you to consider. Protestantism came out of Catholicism. It has its roots in the Catholic Church. The Catholic church was pretty much in control of the Scriptures in west  for about 1000 years. They could interpret the Scriptures however they choose to. So, it’s no surprise to see your commentators espousing Catholic doctrines.

The reason for not answering the questions is that they just side track the issue. The questions you asked me have no bearing on the meaning of Rev 22. What I believe doesn’t change  what the passage says

So you are disagreeing with what commentary says about Gen 2:9? Isn't that a bit of stretch?

 

Do you understand what I’m saying? It’s someone’s opinion. I used to read commentaries and  have about 42 difference commentary series. The more I read the farther from the truth I got. I finally realized they were just opinions and carried “NO” weight.  If you want to know what Christianity really is go back and study the earliest writings of the church and see what they believed and taught and then compare what they say to the Scriptures. If you want to know what the Bible teaches do word studies. It doesn’t really matter what the dictionaries and lexicons say if it’s not how the Scriptures use the words. Go to the Greek or Hebrew texts and follow a word through all of its occurrences and see how the Scriptures use that word then you’ll know what the word means in the Scriptures.
  

After judgment they face their punishment. That's what judgment is Butch.

Punishment and judgment are not the same thing. After the judgment the wicked will face their punishment that is correct. What is their punishment? It’s “DEATH”. They’re thrown into the Lake of Fire which is what????? It’s the “Second Death,” they die. When a person dies, as I’ve shown already, the body decays and God spirit/breath returns to Him. When a person is cast into the Lake of Fire the body will burn up and God’s spirit/breath will return to Him. The soul will cease to exist, there is nothing left. It’s as the Scriptures say, the wicked shall be no more.

[Guest DRS81]

The questions you asked me have no bearing on the meaning of Rev 22. What I believe doesn’t change  what the passage says

 

The questions I've asked you have bearing on Gen 2:9 and ALSO Rev 22. What do YOU believe these two scriptures are talking about? I don't know what you believe because you haven't answered the questions. Please share with me what you believe..1) Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and 2) Do you know what anointing is. All talk and no play. Humor me Butch.

 

Punishment and judgment are not the same thing. After the judgment the wicked will face their punishment that is correct. What is their punishment? It’s “DEATH”. They’re thrown into the Lake of Fire which is what????? It’s the “Second Death,” they die. When a person dies, as I’ve shown already, the body decays and God spirit/breath returns to Him. When a person is cast into the Lake of Fire the body will burn up and God’s spirit/breath will return to Him. The soul will cease to exist, there is nothing left. It’s as the Scriptures say, the wicked shall be no more.

 

Death is not the punishment. I know what your idea of hell and the afterlife is, and it's not biblical. For example, let's take the nonbeliever. You're trying to prove that after he dies that his soul and spirit are dead in the grave and then is resurrected for judgment and then dies again and ceases to exist. That is not biblical Butch. That is not punishment by God. By saying this, you are saying that nonbelievers can sin whenever they want, they can murder, rape people, commit adultery, it doesn't matter because ceasing to exist is the end result when they die. That is basically a free ticket to sin, and there is no wrath from God. What is the greek word for wrath?

[Butch5]

The questions I've asked you have bearing on Gen 2:9 and ALSO Rev 22. What do YOU believe these two scriptures are talking about? I don't know what you believe because you haven't answered the questions. Please share with me what you believe..1) Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and 2) Do you know what anointing is. All talk and no play.   Humor me Butch.

 

What I believe does not change what the Scriptures mean. The Scripture mean what they mean no matter what anyone believes.

Death is not the punishment. I know what your idea of hell and the afterlife is, and it's not biblical. For example, let's take the nonbeliever. You're trying to prove that after he dies that his soul and spirit are dead in the grave and then is resurrected for judgment and then dies again and ceases to exist. That is not biblical Butch. That is not punishment by God. By saying this, you are saying that nonbelievers can sin whenever they want, they can murder, rape people, commit adultery, it doesn't matter because ceasing to exist is the end result when they die. That is basically a free ticket to sin, and there is no wrath from God. What is the greek word for wrath?

 

I’m starting to think you believe that your opinion is the final authority. You said death is not punishment yet throughout the Scriptures the penalty for sins is death.

 

19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Eze 18:19-20 KJV)

 

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 6:23 KJV)

 

Notice the contrast that Paul gives, it’s eternal life or death. It’s not eternal punishment or eternal burning. Notice his words the gift of God is eternal life. If the wicked suffer eternal punishment or burning then they receive the gift of God which Scriptures says is for the believers. For someone to be suffer eternal punishment they must live forever. Your doctrine has the wicked being given eternal life. The Scriptures don’t say that the wicked received eternal life, they say the righteous do.  Also as I pointed out, the Lake of Fire is the “SECOND” death. Living eternally is not death. Existing eternally in the Lake of Fire is not death. The Lake of Fire is the second death and it is death that is the punishment for sins as the Scriptures state.

 

16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. (Deu 24:16 KJV)

 

6 But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin. (2Ki 14:6 KJV)

 

Not all sin leads to death but the most severe penalty given in Scripture for sin is death.

[Guest DRS81]

 

The questions I've asked you have bearing on Gen 2:9 and ALSO Rev 22. What do YOU believe these two scriptures are talking about? I don't know what you believe because you haven't answered the questions. Please share with me what you believe..1) Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and 2) Do you know what anointing is. All talk and no play.   Humor me Butch.

 

What I believe does not change what the Scriptures mean. The Scripture mean what they mean no matter what anyone believes.

 

Incorrect. What you believe and what the commentary believes CHANGES what scriptures mean. The question is which one is true. Do you know what a false prophet is and does? False beliefs are the core of twisting scripture. Again, please answer the questions. If you refuse to answer these two questions than I am stopping this debate.

 

 

Death is not the punishment. I know what your idea of hell and the afterlife is, and it's not biblical. For example, let's take the nonbeliever. You're trying to prove that after he dies that his soul and spirit are dead in the grave and then is resurrected for judgment and then dies again and ceases to exist. That is not biblical Butch. That is not punishment by God. By saying this, you are saying that nonbelievers can sin whenever they want, they can murder, rape people, commit adultery, it doesn't matter because ceasing to exist is the end result when they die. That is basically a free ticket to sin, and there is no wrath from God. What is the greek word for wrath?

 

I’m starting to think you believe that your opinion is the final authority. You said death is not punishment yet throughout the Scriptures the penalty for sins is death.

 

19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Eze 18:19-20 KJV)

 

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 6:23 KJV)

 

Notice the contrast that Paul gives, it’s eternal life or death. It’s not eternal punishment or eternal burning. Notice his words the gift of God is eternal life. If the wicked suffer eternal punishment or burning then they receive the gift of God which Scriptures says is for the believers. For someone to be suffer eternal punishment they must live forever. Your doctrine has the wicked being given eternal life. The Scriptures don’t say that the wicked received eternal life, they say the righteous do.  Also as I pointed out, the Lake of Fire is the “SECOND” death. Living eternally is not death. Existing eternally in the Lake of Fire is not death. The Lake of Fire is the second death and it is death that is the punishment for sins as the Scriptures state.

 

16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. (Deu 24:16 KJV)

 

6 But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin. (2Ki 14:6 KJV)

 

Not all sin leads to death but the most severe penalty given in Scripture for sin is death.

 

You are taking the word death out of context. Think spiritually and physically when speaking about the afterlife.

[other one]

i don't personally think it matters.....   either we die and go to heaven or we die and don't know about anything until resurection day and from that perspective you die and the next thing you know you're resurrected..... 

 

From the perspective of the dead there really isn't much if any difference.

 

 

If you were a Muslim, it would be a different story.

[Guest DRS81]

i don't personally think it matters.....   either we die and go to heaven or we die and don't know about anything until resurection day and from that perspective you die and the next thing you know you're resurrected..... 

 

From the perspective of the dead there really isn't much if any difference.

 

 

If you were a Muslim, it would be a different story.

 

It does matter other one. Spreading the wrong Gospel matters.

[Guest Butero]

I am going to agree with Butch on one thing.  Commentaries are not the end all.  They can be wrong, but the opinions in the commentaries are just as valid as those Butch is giving.  Lets start here for a moment Butch.  I gave you an interpretation of scriptures you gave to me.  I stated that when the Bible says the dead cannot praise God or that they sleep, it is speaking of the body, and the Spirit goes to heaven or hell.  A commentary happens to agree with me.  I agree that doesn't mean your opinion becomes invalid, but there is no reason for me or anyone else to accept your view over ours or the commentary.  I gave you as evidence the story of the rich man and Lazarus.  You chose to reject it, but that doesn't make me wrong.  It just means we disagree.  I referenced the people that were killed in Revelation, and you rejected that.  That doesn't make me wrong.  You see Butch, it is possible for people to have the same Bible and disagree, just like I disagree with you about the end of the wicked.  I don't believe they are destroyed.  Their torment is eternal.  Their worm dieth not.  I know you are going to disagree, and that is fine, but just as you have the right to reject a commentary, I have the same right to reject your interpretation and beliefs.