Contradiction? 1-1

[Harikrish]

Judas wasn't "given" to Him...?

The 12 disciples of Jesus named.

Matthew 10;1 He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness. 2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him. 5

 

Read John chapter 17... particularly vrs 6 - 12. Judas wasn't one of the people given to Jesus.

Judas was one of the 12 disciples. He was even named with the other disciples. To say I have not lost any except Judas or I have not lost any but Judas is incorrect. It is like saying I have all my fingers except one. You don't have all your fingers if you lost any.

[OneLight]

The list clearly names Judas as one of the 12 disciples. It even says in John 17 Judas was destroyed.

 

 

Judas was one of the 12 disciples. He was even named with the other disciples. To say I have not lost any except Judas or I have not lost any but Judas is incorrect. It is like saying I have all my fingers except one. You don't have all your fingers if you lost any.

Scripture does say that Jesus did loose one, and He called Judas the son of perdition.

John 17:12

While I was with them in the world,[c] I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled

[Guest Teditis]

Judas wasn't even there when He prayed this prayer... Judas had left by the middle of chapter 13.

So we know that Jesus is not praying for Judas when He (Jesus) begins this very lengthy discourse and prayer.

 

Furthermore, in vs 15 He prays that God would, #1 "(not) take them out of the world" and #2 "keep them from the Evil One"... Judas was called a devil and later said that "Satan entered into him".  (Even earlier in Scripture Judas is recognized by Christ to not be a believer; to not be clean; to be a deceiver.) But he also killed himself... got taken out of the world, right?

By vs 24, Jesus prays, (speaking now of all believers) "Father I desire that they also whom you have given me may be with me where I am to see my glory that you have given me before the foundation of the world." Clearly Judas didn't get to see that either.

 

Feel free to make of that whatever you will, but the way I see it, Judas should not be counted as one of the ones that was "given Him".

 

Add to this a host of other Scriptures that tell us that God is not slack and never fails on anything including one's salvation... Judas according to Acts goes to a camp of desolation... not saved.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Everyone.....

       Once again,Shiloh nailed it.......there are no contradictions in Gods Word,the people that sit there & try (with every fiber of their being)to discredit the Gospels only hope to justify their own belief system........

      Did you ever go to a family get together with 11 other family members & everyone had a big argument........4 of them that where there tell their experience at the get together,2 of them saw  something the other ones didn't,one came late & missed half of it & yet the other sounds like he was in another room just listening  .....???The fact is,they were all there,there was a get together,there were 12 people and they did all get into an argument.......they just tell the story from their own perspective...........

    Praise & Glory to God,peace to you  & good will towards all men                         Love,Kwik

[finestofthewheat]

I agree the word of God is given to understand and so has no contradiction.

[SeekingTruth87]

teditis.....I am confused on what point you are trying to argue here?

If I am not mistaken and I very well may be, it seems that your argument is two fold.

1. Judas was not given to Jesus as a disciple? Of course he was given as a disciple, Judas was fulfilling the cause for which he was pre ordained......just as God hardened the heart of pharaoh to use him for His purpose so Judas was used.

Jesus knew what His end would be and which of those He had surrounding Himself would bring it about, He knew full well the scriptures and what must be fulfilled, after all the scriptures speak of HIM!

secondly, Jesus is lifting up His disciples that are still with Him and who still desire to serve and be used for Gods glory.......what does Judas going to hell have to do with any of this? Gods ways are higher than our ways, you try to pick apart a truth and rationalize what you do not understand. God wills that no man should perish but that all should come to salvation, of course we know that the great majority of mankind is not going to make it, does that then mean God lost? No! God wants no man to perish but He will NOT force himself upon anyone. He gave us free will that we might chose Him as He has chosen us. Judas could have repented of his sin but he allowed satan to win and allowed his shame to drive him to suicide.

[Guest Teditis]

teditis.....I am confused on what point you are trying to argue here?

If I am not mistaken and I very well may be, it seems that your argument is two fold.

1. Judas was not given to Jesus as a disciple? Of course he was given as a disciple, Judas was fulfilling the cause for which he was pre ordained......just as God hardened the heart of pharaoh to use him for His purpose so Judas was used.

Jesus knew what His end would be and which of those He had surrounding Himself would bring it about, He knew full well the scriptures and what must be fulfilled, after all the scriptures speak of HIM!

secondly, Jesus is lifting up His disciples that are still with Him and who still desire to serve and be used for Gods glory.......what does Judas going to hell have to do with any of this? Gods ways are higher than our ways, you try to pick apart a truth and rationalize what you do not understand. God wills that no man should perish but that all should come to salvation, of course we know that the great majority of mankind is not going to make it, does that then mean God lost? No! God wants no man to perish but He will NOT force himself upon anyone. He gave us free will that we might chose Him as He has chosen us. Judas could have repented of his sin but he allowed satan to win and allowed his shame to drive him to suicide.

 

What I was trying to do was differentiate between Judas being a member of Jesus' entourage

and being one of God's elect.

 

Yes, of course Judas was a member of the 12 but from my perspective that was more in order

to fulfill prophesy (Psalm 41:9) but he was never one of God's elect... predestined for salvation...

as pointed out in various Scriptures (see John 6:70 especially).

Judas was never destined for Salvation... and as you pointed out that was his own choice... Jesus

just knew that beforehand.

 

So Judas was not part of the ones that He prays for in John 17:6-9 ("the Given") and vs 15 reinforces that

​conclusion, as Judas was never kept from the Evil One.

[SeekingTruth87]

oh well then we are in agreement it would seem Ted! haha, I was a bit confused by all the argument, this seems to me a pretty open and shut issue. So yep he was not kept from the evil one, but then im not sure any are really kept from him, it is just to what degree God allows satan to work I think. He allowed satan to have his way with Job but only that he could not physically affect job (his body) but Job in the end while questioning God, got his response when God pretty much reminded Job just how little he really understood and Job repented even though he had nothing left and in our (or I should say My) limited understanding had every reason to be bitter toward God. so I think that at the end of the day it comes down to whether we adhere to satans lies or we chose to hit our knees and repent. Unfortunately for Judas, he chose the first.

[other one]

Luke 22 states that when the chief priests were looking for a way to get rid of Jesus, Satan entered Judas......

 

My dad always asked when this subject came up, "did Judas have anything to do with Satan's entering him, or was it just God ordained that it happen to someone...    so in the end come judgement day will Judas be the person responsible or just Satan.

 

Personally I would not attempt to answer that.

[Guest Teditis]

Luke 22 states that when the chief priests were looking for a way to get rid of Jesus, Satan entered Judas......

 

My dad always asked when this subject came up, "did Judas have anything to do with Satan's entering him, or was it just God ordained that it happen to someone...    so in the end come judgement day will Judas be the person responsible or just Satan.

 

Personally I would not attempt to answer that.

 

Just outta curiosity Other One, what do you make of John 6:70 then?