IMHO: A big part of understanding Hebrew Roots...

[nebula]

Nice historical analysis neb,

I am glad you appreciate it!

 

The issue as I see it that I had to ponder and reflect upon is that transition you mentioned, is it God ordained or rather, is it pleasing to God for me to accept?

You aren't alone. We've had many debates on the Board about several of these issues over the years. Us long-time members have jokes about the "annual Christmas / Easter" debates.

 

Each one of the questions you have raised deserve their own thread. I've pondered several of these questions a long time, and I'm still sorting through them in a way.

 

My biggest obstacle to changing any habits and traditions is the lack of something to turn to. Example: how many congregations meet together for worship on Saturday? The Feasts are not designed to be celebrated alone; it is difficult to celebrate them without others who will share the experience with you.

 

I pray you have peace from the Lord over all of these things, for these are difficult to tackle.

[Spock]

Nice historical analysis neb,

I am glad you appreciate it!

The issue as I see it that I had to ponder and reflect upon is that transition you mentioned, is it God ordained or rather, is it pleasing to God for me to accept?

You aren't alone. We've had many debates on the Board about several of these issues over the years. Us long-time members have jokes about the "annual Christmas / Easter" debates.

Each one of the questions you have raised deserve their own thread. I've pondered several of these questions a long time, and I'm still sorting through them in a way.

My biggest obstacle to changing any habits and traditions is the lack of something to turn to. Example: how many congregations meet together for worship on Saturday? The Feasts are not designed to be celebrated alone; it is difficult to celebrate them without others who will share the experience with you.

I pray you have peace from the Lord over all of these things, for these are difficult to tackle.

Thanks again for your graciousness and empathy.

For now, I'm fairly content, which isn't bad if you knew me (always striving for perfection). You sound like you are interested in my life, so here is a brief synopsis of my activities:

Wife and I attend a messianic synagogue to celebrate the Feasts but do not attend on a regular basis apart from that. We in the past have met once a month at a friend's house where 10 of us Saturday day of rest freaks would hang out and fellowship.

My wife and I as a couple treat Saturday as our day of rest. (I'm not aware God REQUIRES our day of rest to be running off to some church.) We wake up very slowlyyyyyyyyyy on Saturday and after coffee and more coffee we enjoy The Lord- opening his word, both old and new, worship in song and praise, and finally prayer. The rest of the day is relaxing and for the most part we do not do work activities that we normally do Monday through Friday. We play, we rest, we exercise, we rest. Lol

Sunday begins our work week, and yes, we work six days a week. My wife is self employed and I teach (retired from law).

Like I said, I'm fairly content with this arrangement because it doesn't violate my conscience and it allows for me to celebrate the Feasts, which I still feel are important today. Admittedly I do not follow Leviticus 23 to the letter, but I think by spirit is pleasing enough.

PS. We used to joyfully and willingly attend a messianic congregation on a regular basis mostly for the fellowship, but left when the Rabbi we felt got a bit weird and was expecting people to follow more laws than we thought necessary. There aren't many around to choose from us as you can imagine, but there is one that meets our feast needs.

Thanks for listening,

Spock out

[nebula]

Sounds cool! Thanks for sharing.

[Qnts2]

Nice historical analysis neb,

The issue as I see it that I had to ponder and reflect upon is that transition you mentioned, is it God ordained or rather, is it pleasing to God for me to accept?

For example-

Worship on Sunday. I believe it came from the sun God worship. Didn't sound very attractive to me, so should I accept or reject?

The origin of Easter and Christmas - also did not sound God inspired too, but rather more pagan rooted. Why would I follow that?

What exactly are the implications of a new covenant? Does that mean throw away everything that is Jewish?

What is the relevance of Acts 15, the Jerusalem Council?

Is the old covenant gone for good? When did they go? Will those early practices be reinstated? Are the Ten Commandments only old covenant stuff for Jews only or are they universal for all time?

Are the sabbath Feasts only for Jews? Do they have an implication for latter times?

What does it mean to be grafted into Israel?

Did Christ or any apostle encourage or advocate a new religion? Who did encourage this break? Was it somebody I believe is a spokesperson for God?

WWJD. Does the life of Christ give me any indication of how I should live my life? Did he model things for me, or was he merely being a good Jew?

Many many more issues to wrestle with (for me at least). Still haven't resolved and I doubt I ever will to my satisfaction. (What else is new for me?)

For me, much to consider and if you know me, I do not accept anything just because tradition says this is the way it is or because it's been done for many hundreds of years. In fact, I'm suspicious of practically EVERYONE. lol

 

Just for a potentially different view and opinion.... variety maybe. 

 

I am a Messianic Jew, so maybe I see this different.

 

There are 3 main Messianic Judaism organizations in the U.S. The MJAA (largest) and the UMJC (second largest), plus the AMC (smaller). While there are differences, particularly between the AMC and the other two, no Messianic Judaism organization believes that Gentiles are required to keep the Sabbath or the Feasts. 

 

Then there is a variety of predominantly Gentile groups which take the title of Messianic, such as Two House, or One law, which do say that Gentiles are required to keep the Sabbath and the Feasts. So, if you go to a Messianic synagogue which says Gentiles have to keep the law, it is likely Two House and/or One law theology. (One Law theology says that there is one law for Jew and Gentile, and of course, they interpret that law to be the Mosaic law).

 

The Mosaic law was given to the children of Israel, for their entire lives and for all generations of Jewish people, so in my view, a child who is born Jewish, is born under the Mosaic covenant. They remain obligated for their entire lives, or until they accept Jesus, coming under the New Covenant.

 

In the Mosaic law, most of the law is commanded to the Jewish people. The law is very specific about who does what. Most of the law did not take effect until the children of Israel entered the promised land. Some Gentiles lived with the Jewish people in the land of Israel, and some Gentiles were just passing thru, on business or visiting. The Mosaic law specifically says which subset of laws apply to Gentiles living in the land and to those passing thru. An obvious one is, thou shall not murder applies to any who is in the land of Israel, Jew, Gentile in residence, or Gentile passing thru.

 

There is no Mosaic law addressed to Gentiles who do not reside and are not currently in the land of Israel. There are laws in the OT, which are not a part of the Mosaic law.

 

Ok, so directly speaking, unless you live in the land of Israel, you are not required to do any of the Mosaic law. If you live in the land of Israel, there currently is no Temple, so some laws can not be kept,,, but, there are laws which state Gentiles ( not ritually circumcised) are not to do. Gentiles living in the land of Israel were to keep a subset of the Sabbath laws, but were not to partake of the Passover lamb, ever.

 

In the NT, Jesus celebrated Passover at the last supper, and changed the meaning as a pointer to Him also. Since He is the lamb, The Lamb is no longer forbidden to Gentiles. I call this Passover the NT Passover, and is available for Gentiles to join in.

 

In the future, the millenium, it is clear that Succoth will be celebrated and be a requirement, but at that point, I believe Succoth will have been 'fulfilled' and now point to what the Messiah has done, the final ingathering, which involves all believers. But even non-believers in the millenium will be required to go up to Jerusalem according to scripture in the OT.

 

I do not believe Gentiles are grafted into Israel. I believe Gentiles are grafted into the Messiah/Messianic promises. The idea of grafting comes from Romans 11. In Romans 11, there are two trees. The native tree and the wild tree. Gentiles are wild branches who are grafted into the native tree. But the emphasis is that Gentiles are branches. Israel are native branches, most cut off from the native tree. Again the emphasis is on Israel being branches. Israel is not the tree, but is branches, mostly cut off. If Gentiles were grafted into Israel, they would be grafted into branches, most of which have been cut off. That doesn't make sense. All who are saved are grafted into the tree and receive nourishment from the roots. The tree is the promises, which means the Messianic promises.           

[Spock]

Wow. Interesting perspective. Thanks for sharing them. I will share my thoughts to your thoughts later. Again, thanks for this. Good stuff.

[ajchurney]

Spock,

Just a thought.

It is normative to see NT believers in scripture meeting on the 1ST day of the week for fellowship isn't it? It is almost universally accepted that this is because it is resurrection day of the week. Why could you not fellowship with a solid, Bible teaching, Christ worshiping church group on Sunday, and continue your Sabbath practice and Feast  celebration as conscience has dictated? Is there no church body near you that is worth going to in this sort of way? Paul made it abundantly clear that it made no difference what day you choose to worship together, as the Lord is the Lord of every day anyhow! In Hebrews, we are told to gather together much more so often as "we say the Day approaching", which certainly we do. It would not seem like the leading of the Holy Spirit of God to give you a rigid idea of worship days that would keep you from fellowship much more so in this evil day. I know it is totally a matter of your own understanding of things, but just offering a perspective. I appreciate the way you are acting in accordance with your revelation of truth, as you should. 

[Donibm]

QUESTION: where is it HISTORICALLY or SCRIPTURALLY required that the Church, which is clearly predominantly Gentile, return its "Hebrew Roots"?

 

I don't need or ask for much, but evidence from the writing of the Early Church (50AD - 300AD) along with the Scriptures ... would suffice.  Without these things, it all seems like a sprinkle of modern day Judaizing to me.  Gnostic even.  In fact ... I've dealt with this many times over the last 20 years.  The opposite is true.  But, it doesn't hurt for elements of "academics" in a scholastic setting, but to try to return the CHURCH to "Hebraic roots" .... absolutely not a requirement or a commandment.

[Qnts2]

QUESTION: where is it HISTORICALLY or SCRIPTURALLY required that the Church, which is clearly predominantly Gentile, return its "Hebrew Roots"?

 

I don't need or ask for much, but evidence from the writing of the Early Church (50AD - 300AD) along with the Scriptures ... would suffice.  Without these things, it all seems like a sprinkle of modern day Judaizing to me.  Gnostic even.  In fact ... I've dealt with this many times over the last 20 years.  The opposite is true.  But, it doesn't hurt for elements of "academics" in a scholastic setting, but to try to return the CHURCH to "Hebraic roots" .... absolutely not a requirement or a commandment.

 

There would be no need in scripture to say that the Church should return to Hebrew roots, as the church, in the time of scripture were already aware and practicing 'Hebrew roots'. The first believers were Jewish and had practiced according to the OT, moving to the NT. They would know and recognize the Jewishness in Christianity, and the Jewish believers would have explained the practice and meaning of Jesus in light of the fulfillments in the OT. So, the question would not be a reminder of Hebrew roots, as that was already normal in Christian practice. The better question would be, 'when did the Church abandon Hebrew roots?' 

 

For that answer, we go to 325 ce, the first council of Nicea. At that time Constantine was able to influence the result of the council and his influence had an anti-Jewish bend. Letters were written to the churches to cease any practice which was related to the Jews or Judaism. So, in 325 ce, the church intentionally abandoned 'Hebrew roots'.

 

The following are quotes from a paper (English translation) of various decrees and letters written from the 1st council of Nicea. 

 

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/nicea1.txt

 

We further proclaim to you the good news of the agreement

concerning the holy Easter, that this particular also has through your

prayers been rightly settled; so that all our brethren in the East who

formerly followed the custom of the Jews are henceforth to celebrate

the said most sacred feast of Easter at the same time with the Romans

and yourselves and all those who have observed Easter from the

beginning.

 

(The change from celebrating the NT Passover to the Easter as well as changing the timing of the celebration so it no longer coincided with Passover).

 

 

CANON LII.

Usury and the base seeking of worldly gain is forbidden to the clergy,

also conversation and fellowship with Jews.

(Forbidding the clergy to fellowship or even talk with the Jewish people).

 

ON THE KEEPING OF EASTER.

From the Letter of the Emperor to all those not present at the Council.

(Found in Eusebius, Vita Const., Lib. iii., 18-20.)

 

 

When the question relative to the sacred festival of Easter arose, it was

universally thought that it would be convenient that all should keep the

feast on one day; for what could be more beautiful and more desirable,

than to see this festival, through which we receive the hope of

immortality, celebrated by all with one accord, and in the same

manner? It was declared to be particularly unworthy for this, the

holiest of all festivals, to follow the custom[the calculation] of the

Jews, who had soiled their hands with the most fearful of crimes, and

whose minds were blinded. In rejecting their custom,(1) we may

transmit to our descendants the legitimate mode of celebrating Easter,

which we have observed from the time of the Saviour's Passion to the

present day[according to the day of the week]. We ought not,

therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews, for the Saviour

has shown us another way; our worship follows a more legitimate and

more convenient course(the order of the days of the week); and

consequently, in unanimously adopting this mode, we desire, dearest

brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the

Jews,

 

So, the church today celebrates in a manner which has been passed down from the council of Nicea, which intentionally removed anything related to the Jewish people from Christianity. Jewish roots is actually a return to pre-Nicea Christianity. Or at least an awareness of the original practices and meanings known by the early Christians. Does this return alter the understanding of Jesus? Not in the fundamentals of the gospel of salvation, and the awareness does not effect a persons salvation one way or the other. Salvation is by faith alone in Yeshua alone. But, it does help to put a fair amount of NT scripture into context as the NT and OT are all one book, with continuing themes and explanations.  

 

So, no, you will not find and admonition in scripture to return to Hebrew roots as the church had not left Hebrew roots when scripture was written.  

 

Now, what is Judaizing? It was the practice of certain people in NT times to go to Gentile believers and tell them they must be circumcised. Ritual circumcision was 'becoming Jewish'. The Judaizers thought the Gentile believers needed to become Jewish and observe the Mosaic law. To be obligated to observing the Mosaic law one had to be Jewish/ritually circumcised. Jewish roots is not circumcision and Gentiles being obligated to the law, but rather an understanding of the progression of the early Jewish church from the OT to a NT understanding as practiced by the pre-Nicea church.

 

[Qnts2]

Spock,

Just a thought.

It is normative to see NT believers in scripture meeting on the 1ST day of the week for fellowship isn't it? It is almost universally accepted that this is because it is resurrection day of the week. Why could you not fellowship with a solid, Bible teaching, Christ worshiping church group on Sunday, and continue your Sabbath practice and Feast  celebration as conscience has dictated? Is there no church body near you that is worth going to in this sort of way? Paul made it abundantly clear that it made no difference what day you choose to worship together, as the Lord is the Lord of every day anyhow! In Hebrews, we are told to gather together much more so often as "we say the Day approaching", which certainly we do. It would not seem like the leading of the Holy Spirit of God to give you a rigid idea of worship days that would keep you from fellowship much more so in this evil day. I know it is totally a matter of your own understanding of things, but just offering a perspective. I appreciate the way you are acting in accordance with your revelation of truth, as you should. 

 

While I am not sure that the gathering on Sunday was because it was 'resurrection day', I do agree with you. It was the practice of the Jewish people to have gatherings 7 days a week, and it was also the practice of the early church to gather 7 days a week. The Sabbath is not about worship services. The Sabbath is a day of rest, and worship is 7 days a week. If a group chooses to gather on Sunday, that is as good as any day.

 

I personally believe that the early Christians would go to synagogues on the Sabbath if one was available in their area for two reasons. To hear scripture read, and to share the good news of the Messiah with the Jewish people. On Sunday, they would gather with other believers to discuss NT scripture, and to share what had occurred Saturday as well as the previous days of the week, and to pray together. That gathering was for believers only.

 

I know many Messianic Jews who go to a Messianic synagogue on Saturday and a Christian church on Sundays, so the dual practice is done.   

[nebula]

QUESTION: where is it HISTORICALLY or SCRIPTURALLY required that the Church, which is clearly predominantly Gentile, return its "Hebrew Roots"?

 

I don't need or ask for much, but evidence from the writing of the Early Church (50AD - 300AD) along with the Scriptures ... would suffice.  Without these things, it all seems like a sprinkle of modern day Judaizing to me.  Gnostic even.  In fact ... I've dealt with this many times over the last 20 years.  The opposite is true.  But, it doesn't hurt for elements of "academics" in a scholastic setting, but to try to return the CHURCH to "Hebraic roots" .... absolutely not a requirement or a commandment.

 

Think of it more as returning to the roots of our faith.

 

The "Church" over the early centuries drifted away from customs and practices that were founded in Scripture, replacing them with customs and practices of their pagan ways.

 

While I have nothing against redeeming your own culture, reapplying symbols to new foundation meanings and the like, to completely reject the character and flavor of the faith from which we began is pretty lame. More so, we lose out on the significance of Christ's fulfillment when we don't understand the foundations which pointed the way to Him.