why I believe in Christ and evolution

[ARGOSY]

 

 

 

 

All of this is to say, I have not found an intrinsic contradiction between accepting the physical story behind the Big Bang and evolution, and accepting the resurrection of Jesus and the truth of the gospel. It is possible to hold to the former and have faith in the former simultaneously.

 

Being a rational type of person I understand your perspective, all truth is good , even from science. I agree with you that the core gospel message does not contradict evolution.  The bible is a symbolic book and so its easy to see symbols where the two contradict, which solves your problem in those few areas where there appears to be a contradiction.

 

I personally find very little support for evolution in the fields of geology, paleontology and genetics. This is why I believe in Intelligent design, it fits the facts better and it also fits the bible better. Win/win. I wish Christian evolutionists were more open to discussions in a polite and rational manner, they may learn something. For example, I found in the radiometric dating thread, not one evolutionist had the manners to admit that decay could increase significantly when the earth is protected from solar/cosmic radiation , even though I pointed out the oscillations have already been detected.  I am planning to start a fossil thread soon, let's see how rational and open-minded evolutionists are. And so when science and the bible contradict, I suggest you don't too easily accept the current scientific position, listen maturely to the other point of view and you will find some truth there as well.

 

Thanks for your feedback Argosy. To a certain extent, I do accept Intelligent Design, insofar as I don't promote a naturalist viewpoint at all. I do believe God is behind all of this, either way.

 

If you read my comments in the radiometric dating thread, I think you will see that I attempted to take on that issue. Specifically, if you are interested, look at the thought experiment I laid out, which I think best explains the principles behind why I find radiometric dating so compelling.

 

 

 

Specifically which thought experiment are you referring to?  You seemed focused on the widespread consilience issue, which I had already explained. If you refer to a post, we can continue on that thread.

[Guest shiloh357]

Belief.

 

Job 39

 13 Gavest thou the goodly wings unto the peacocks ? or wings and feathers unto the ostrich? 14 Which leaveth her eggs in the earth, and warmeth them in dust, 15 And forgetteth that the foot may crush them, or that the wild beast may break them. 16 She is hardened against her young ones, as though they were not hers: her labour is in vain without fear; ....

 

 

If I look to the Bible to interpret science, my view of the mother ostrich would be that an animal that lays eggs on the ground, forms the dirt around the eggs for incubation, and then forsakes them.

 

Scientists who spent the time to observe ostriches (something the ancient people had no reason to), have found that a group of female ostriches lay their eggs into one large nest and the dominant female cares for them. The eggs on the outskirts, which are the most vulnerable, belong to the female(s) at the bottom of the heirarchy. When the ostrich(es) run away from the nest, it's an attempt to draw the predators away from the nest.

 

 

So, do I "believe what the Bible says and re-interpret the scientific evidence accordingly"? Or do I believe what the science researchers determined and try to figure out the discrepancy?

 

 

I chose the latter. God did not lie. However, He used Job's incorrect understanding of the ostrich in order to prove a point.

 

 

Would you call that trusting in science over trusting what God said?

Well I did some checking and it turns out that while Ostriches are most common in Africa they also live in the middle east until recently and are now extinct in that part of the world.   The ostrich Job is referring to is one that would have been observed in the middle east.  And ostriches have been observed with the kind of behavior mentioned above. Note the quote below:

 

Martin tells of a cock that trampled his own nest after one of the hens was removed to stop the fighting (9, p. 128), and Delitzsdi (4, pp. 338-339) reports that wild ostriches are known to trample their nests if die nests are disturbed by humans.

 

The nest is always in danger of attack from jackals, wildcats, and other animals (4). Martin (9) reports that whiteneck crows drop stones which break the eggs, and later the bird descends to eat the broken egg.

 

She also gives an account of jackals preying upon the eggs.

During the hatching stage the chicks are in danger because of the erratic behavior of the parents. The hatching period lasts about 4 days, some of the eggs hatching earlier than others. Pickrell (12) recommends that after hatching begins, unhatched eggs should be removed to an incubator, because they are liable to injury from the parents.

 

As the Bible has indicated, the adults are sometimes very incompetent in care of the chicks. Martin (9, p. 119) tells of one overzealous cock that literally ran his chicks to death, taking them across the veldt on a continual search for fresher pastures. One hen on the Martin farm that had faithfully reared several broods of chicks lost one batch as follows:

. . . one day the idiotic ostrich-nature asserted itself; she took a sudden and senseless fright-probably at nothing -lost her wits, bolted right away, leaving the chicks to get dispersed about the veldt, where only a few were found; and was herself never heard of again (9, p. 137).

 

Older birds are spiteful of chicks that are not their own. Parents know their own chicks and will kick and peck at those of other nests (14).

 

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1963/JASA12-63Howe.html

 

So I don't think the Bible is in any danger of being found to have been wrong in its assessment of ostrich behavior.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Alpha.....

     Boy oh Boy do I ever remember these conversations & what it felt like when no one could understand that the one thing I CLEARLY understood was one Word from God Himself through the apostle John.....I was that WHOSOEVER (John 3:16)that wanted to know Him so badly because I had been touched by Him & I was no longer the same girl I was before I met Jesus but I had all those years of studying science & it was what I knew & believed in & it just did not make sense.......I used to plead with God to explain it to me,I knew He could not lie,so what did it all mean?

    Alpha,I didn't see that everything written in the Scriptures was about Jesus & the Christians around me were so intent on telling me "where was my faith"that nobody took my on that journey like Jesus did with the 2 men he spoke with on the road after He was risen....He explained the Scriptures to them & then they saw it was all about Him

    I am praying for you Alpha,& I don't want you to get hit by that bus....just the Holy Spirit-LOL Like I said earlier"play fair" for both sides...one the one hand you have your years of study & you can try to logically put all the pieces together.....but on the other hand try to let go of logic & try to see the very first sacrifice,the covering provided by God with the flesh of an animal sacrifice & so on.............let go of everything you ever learned & ask Jesus for the Holy Spirit(the Counselor,the Comforter)to take you on that same journey ....let Him impart His Wisdom & be a child for that moment,wiling & eager to know something new....trust God,without reservation

    or perhaps you are not ready ....but one thing is for sure,Jesus loves you & not one person here began their journey knowing what they know now...and let me add that not one person will boast that they learned these things ...for it was given to each of us........Gods Word is consistent & true in every letter of every Word in all 66books

        God bless you ,I do not agree but I understand......ask & it shall be given you

                                                                                                                   With love,in Christ-Kwik

[alphaparticle]

Blessings Alpha.....

     Boy oh Boy do I ever remember these conversations & what it felt like when no one could understand that the one thing I CLEARLY understood was one Word from God Himself through the apostle John.....I was that WHOSOEVER (John 3:16)that wanted to know Him so badly because I had been touched by Him & I was no longer the same girl I was before I met Jesus but I had all those years of studying science & it was what I knew & believed in & it just did not make sense.......I used to plead with God to explain it to me,I knew He could not lie,so what did it all mean?

    Alpha,I didn't see that everything written in the Scriptures was about Jesus & the Christians around me were so intent on telling me "where was my faith"that nobody took my on that journey like Jesus did with the 2 men he spoke with on the road after He was risen....He explained the Scriptures to them & then they saw it was all about Him

    I am praying for you Alpha,& I don't want you to get hit by that bus....just the Holy Spirit-LOL Like I said earlier"play fair" for both sides...one the one hand you have your years of study & you can try to logically put all the pieces together.....but on the other hand try to let go of logic & try to see the very first sacrifice,the covering provided by God with the flesh of an animal sacrifice & so on.............let go of everything you ever learned & ask Jesus for the Holy Spirit(the Counselor,the Comforter)to take you on that same journey ....let Him impart His Wisdom & be a child for that moment,wiling & eager to know something new....trust God,without reservation

    or perhaps you are not ready ....but one thing is for sure,Jesus loves you & not one person here began their journey knowing what they know now...and let me add that not one person will boast that they learned these things ...for it was given to each of us........Gods Word is consistent & true in every letter of every Word in all 66books

        God bless you ,I do not agree but I understand......ask & it shall be given you

                                                                                                                   With love,in Christ-Kwik

 

Thanks for taking the time to try to understand what I mean here. I didn't write this thread to promote a particular viewpoint even, but in the hopes that I could communicate, hopefully for the benefits of others in shoes similar to mine, what I think and why. I know there are many things I still need to work out, and things I am confused about. I have a suspicion that the 'real case' is going to be somewhat different from what we all think, but that is just a suspicion.

[Guest]

Thanks for taking the time to try to understand what I mean here. I didn't write this thread to promote a particular viewpoint even, but in the hopes that I could communicate, hopefully for the benefits of others in shoes similar to mine, what I think and why. I know there are many things I still need to work out, and things I am confused about. I have a suspicion that the 'real case' is going to be somewhat different from what we all think, but that is just a suspicion.

 

 

Some Things Science Can Not Show Are The Persecutors Of The Brethren

 

And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

 

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

 

And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

 

For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Revelation 6:14-17

 

And The Home Of The Beloved

 

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

 

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

 

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. John 14:1-3

[Fez]

 

 

 

 

Quote

The integrity of the Bible is unnecessary to being a believer.

 

Wrong.  it is essential because if God can't be trusted, we can't be sure if we are saved.

 

 

I believed that I could find forgiveness in Jesus because of *parts* of the Bible. I didn't have to have confidence in the entire thing.

 

This is about one of the saddest and wrong assumptions I have heard in a long time.

 

If every believer started nit picking what they preferred to hear in God's Word, where would we be?

 

People, hundreds of thousands of people, all of the disciples except one, died for the Word. Blood has been spilled, and is still being spilled for the Word.

 

If we as believers could have said/will say to our persecutors, OK I will agree with the parts of the bible you feel safe with and ignore the rest, then Jesus died for nothing.

 

And if we feel we can say this to God, to ignore the parts of His Word we are uncomfortable with, we walk a perilous line.

 

This is how I started fez, not my position now. When I first became a believer, I believed precious little out of the Bible, but it was enough to accept the core of the gospel. Since then I have developed, via the Spirit, a view of the Bible as inspired and authoritative.

 

Please don't cherry pick *my* words . I don't want to be misrepresented here when I have clearly stated the above.

 

But based on your posts here and on conversations I have had with you, your view of the Bible as inspired and authoritative is conditional and selective in terms of the subject matter the Bible is addressing.

 

That's not my intention, shiloh. I admit that the ramifications of all of my beliefs is something that is a work in progress however.

 

Thanks for the clarification Alpha. 

 

I believe that one believes it all or one doesn't  believe it at all. There is no room for picking and choosing our desired scriptures.  I am not in the young earth brigade, but that does not detract from my belief that God created everything and every word in the bible is God inspired truth. It just means I don't understand it well enough to make a definitive statement.

 

Tertullian said, "But we desire if it must be so, to be less wise in the scriptures than to be wise against them".

 

​And there is nothing wrong with that, as long as we strive to become more knowledgeable by meditating on His Word..

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Alpha,

    Now I would have to agree that you may be on to something-LOL    we only see in part now anyway....there are so many mysteries of God that i am sure will astound us soon enough! Glory to God!

                                                                                                With love in Christ-Kwik

[alphaparticle]

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

The integrity of the Bible is unnecessary to being a believer.

 

Wrong.  it is essential because if God can't be trusted, we can't be sure if we are saved.

 

 

I believed that I could find forgiveness in Jesus because of *parts* of the Bible. I didn't have to have confidence in the entire thing.

 

This is about one of the saddest and wrong assumptions I have heard in a long time.

 

If every believer started nit picking what they preferred to hear in God's Word, where would we be?

 

People, hundreds of thousands of people, all of the disciples except one, died for the Word. Blood has been spilled, and is still being spilled for the Word.

 

If we as believers could have said/will say to our persecutors, OK I will agree with the parts of the bible you feel safe with and ignore the rest, then Jesus died for nothing.

 

And if we feel we can say this to God, to ignore the parts of His Word we are uncomfortable with, we walk a perilous line.

 

This is how I started fez, not my position now. When I first became a believer, I believed precious little out of the Bible, but it was enough to accept the core of the gospel. Since then I have developed, via the Spirit, a view of the Bible as inspired and authoritative.

 

Please don't cherry pick *my* words . I don't want to be misrepresented here when I have clearly stated the above.

 

But based on your posts here and on conversations I have had with you, your view of the Bible as inspired and authoritative is conditional and selective in terms of the subject matter the Bible is addressing.

 

That's not my intention, shiloh. I admit that the ramifications of all of my beliefs is something that is a work in progress however.

 

Thanks for the clarification Alpha. 

 

I believe that one believes it all or one doesn't  believe it at all. There is no room for picking and choosing our desired scriptures.  I am not in the young earth brigade, but that does not detract from my belief that God created everything and every word in the bible is God inspired truth. It just means I don't understand it well enough to make a definitive statement.

 

Tertullian said, "But we desire if it must be so, to be less wise in the scriptures than to be wise against them".

 

​And there is nothing wrong with that, as long as we strive to become more knowledgeable by meditating on His Word..

 

I don't know, I was, for a couple months, really unsure what to do with the Bible. I read it and eventually the Spirit started speaking to me through the words, so I got a sense that yes, aside from some reasons for taking it seriously I had formed I had these experiences also that let me know something was different here. But- that I got after having believed in Jesus. That's my only point here.

[alphaparticle]

Blessings Alpha,

    Now I would have to agree that you may be on to something-LOL    we only see in part now anyway....there are so many mysteries of God that i am sure will astound us soon enough! Glory to God!

                                                                                                With love in Christ-Kwik

That's one of my favorite verses from my favorite book in the Bible. Actually I've been trying to relax about all this a bit with some confidence God will take me where I need to go.

[alphaparticle]

 

Thanks for taking the time to try to understand what I mean here. I didn't write this thread to promote a particular viewpoint even, but in the hopes that I could communicate, hopefully for the benefits of others in shoes similar to mine, what I think and why. I know there are many things I still need to work out, and things I am confused about. I have a suspicion that the 'real case' is going to be somewhat different from what we all think, but that is just a suspicion.

 

 

Some Things Science Can Not Show Are The Persecutors Of The Brethren

 

And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

 

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

 

And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

 

For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Revelation 6:14-17

 

And The Home Of The Beloved

 

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

 

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

 

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. John 14:1-3

 

There are many things science cannot show. While science can illuminate great things about God's creation, science doesn't really reveal the Person behind it. As a tool for telling us how the physical world works, it does fairly well I'd say, but that is ultimately because God chose to make this a very ordered world, and chose to give us the ability to see these patterns.