EnochBethany Posted March 7, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 649 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 99 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted March 7, 2014 Romans 9-11 is a key passage on Dispensations, Israel vs the Church. Note that the passage states that true Israel is a smaller part of physical Israel. The meaning of Israel is not expanded to include non-descendants of Jacob, but restricted to a subset of them. There is no Israel versus Church. "The Church" is Spirit Israel (All Israel or Complete Israel). Always has been... before Acts 2, before Moses, before Israel (Jacob)... Understand... salvation, faith, etc. has always been about the spiritual versus the physical. This distinction goes all the way back to the beginning. Cain and Abel, Adam and Eve. The Church (ekklesia = assembly the great assembly). John claims: "The Church" is Spirit Israel (All Israel or Complete Israel). Always has been... before Acts 2, before Moses, before Israel (Jacob)... John, lets see your proof of that one. Show me one verse where 1) the Church is called Israel, 2) Israel is ever expanded beyond the offspring of Jacob. You seem to have ignored my observation of how Israel is sometimes reduced to a smaller set of Jacob's descendants, but never expanded beyond Jacob's descendants or that nation of Israel. Saying something proves nothing. John says, "Understand... salvation, faith, etc. has always been about the spiritual versus the physical." The human requirement for salvation is always faith in YHWH, restricted eventually to faith in the Lord Jesus after the Trinity became plainly revealed. This has nothing to do with Israel vs the Church. As to salvation, for Israel salvation includes the physical, but is not limited to it. Always the spiritual relationship is much more important. See the blessings & curses of the Law of Moses. Do I need quote? The Church (ekklesia) is not clearly found in the OT -- it is called a mystery. The Lord Jesus referred to it as FUTURE in Mat 16 : I WILL build my Church. It did not yet exist. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit puts one into the Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13). Baptism of the Holy Spirit began on Pentecost, not before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted March 7, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.71 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 7, 2014 May I ask a question. I have often struggled with the whole Jew verses gentile comparisons in the bible and in conversations. If the flesh don't matter, then what is the point? Maybe because of my past, I look at this wrong. But to me it's like everyone is saying if your not a Jew then your trash. You are worthless garbage and a second class child of God unless you are a Jew. To me that has to be what is being said, because if all are truly equal to God then what is the point of the comparison. I truly don't understand and hope one of you can explain it to me. I'll make an attempt. In terms of salvation, there is no Jew or Gentile, no male or female. We are all saved the same way. Before God, we are all equal and equally loved and called. It is not like Gentiles or Jews are second class citizens in the Kingdom of heaven or in Gods eyes. Of course these verses also differentiate male and female the same way. Both male and female are equal, and neither male or female are second class citizens. In Christianity is a doctrine called 'replacement theology'. Somehow, I believe some Christians have come to think that being a child of Israel/Jewish is a superior position, and some claim to be Israel by various interpretations of scripture, making certain verses no longer in their plain meaning. From my experience, this thought that somehow Israel is a superior title, is also saying that Gentiles are second class compared to Jews. This is definitely not true. Israel is not superior and Gentiles are not inferior, but if people believe they are inferior, they want to find a way to be equal, or superior to the group which they perceive wrongly. This wrong perception sometimes causes Gentiles to say some things about Jews, or at least deny Jews of who they are. (Actually, some who promote replacement theology have done atrocious things to the Jewish people) To say that Gentile Christians are not children of Israel is not saying Gentile Christians are second class. It is giving a better perspective of what scripture says. If God made each person, God also chose each persons parents. So God chose what each persons linage would be. God created who you are for His purpose, and God does not make mistakes. So, when God created a person Jewish, it was for His reasons, and when God created a person not Jewish, it was for His reasons and purposes. Neither is superior or inferior, but both are for God to accomplish His purposes and for His glory. I come from the Jewish side, and have experienced a huge issue when Gentiles think that somehow being Israel is better, or by saying I am Jewish I am boasting. Having experienced persecution for being Jewish, I personally do not understand Gentile Christians who try to replace Jews, or think being Jewish is somehow superior. As Christians, all those who believe are equally blessed with the greatest blessing, but when Gentile Christians cease to see Jewish Christians or unbeleiving Jewish people biblically, it does cause issues for all Jewish people, as the results can get very ugly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestormx Posted March 7, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,113 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 442 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/06/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/17/1975 Share Posted March 7, 2014 May I ask a question. I have often struggled with the whole Jew verses gentile comparisons in the bible and in conversations. If the flesh don't matter, then what is the point? Maybe because of my past, I look at this wrong. But to me it's like everyone is saying if your not a Jew then your trash. You are worthless garbage and a second class child of God unless you are a Jew. To me that has to be what is being said, because if all are truly equal to God then what is the point of the comparison. I truly don't understand and hope one of you can explain it to me. I'll make an attempt. In terms of salvation, there is no Jew or Gentile, no male or female. We are all saved the same way. Before God, we are all equal and equally loved and called. It is not like Gentiles or Jews are second class citizens in the Kingdom of heaven or in Gods eyes. Of course these verses also differentiate male and female the same way. Both male and female are equal, and neither male or female are second class citizens. In Christianity is a doctrine called 'replacement theology'. Somehow, I believe some Christians have come to think that being a child of Israel/Jewish is a superior position, and some claim to be Israel by various interpretations of scripture, making certain verses no longer in their plain meaning. From my experience, this thought that somehow Israel is a superior title, is also saying that Gentiles are second class compared to Jews. This is definitely not true. Israel is not superior and Gentiles are not inferior, but if people believe they are inferior, they want to find a way to be equal, or superior to the group which they perceive wrongly. This wrong perception sometimes causes Gentiles to say some things about Jews, or at least deny Jews of who they are. (Actually, some who promote replacement theology have done atrocious things to the Jewish people) To say that Gentile Christians are not children of Israel is not saying Gentile Christians are second class. It is giving a better perspective of what scripture says. If God made each person, God also chose each persons parents. So God chose what each persons linage would be. God created who you are for His purpose, and God does not make mistakes. So, when God created a person Jewish, it was for His reasons, and when God created a person not Jewish, it was for His reasons and purposes. Neither is superior or inferior, but both are for God to accomplish His purposes and for His glory. I come from the Jewish side, and have experienced a huge issue when Gentiles think that somehow being Israel is better, or by saying I am Jewish I am boasting. Having experienced persecution for being Jewish, I personally do not understand Gentile Christians who try to replace Jews, or think being Jewish is somehow superior. As Christians, all those who believe are equally blessed with the greatest blessing, but when Gentile Christians cease to see Jewish Christians or unbeleiving Jewish people biblically, it does cause issues for all Jewish people, as the results can get very ugly. Thank you for trying to answer my question. I will keep reading and studying scripture trying to get a better understanding in the bible of why the comparisons are made in the bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted March 8, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted March 8, 2014 John - Do you believe Gentile Christians have inherited the birthright to the land of Israel? Absolutely not! Ezekiel 46:18 (NKJV) 18 “Moreover the prince shall not take any of the people’s inheritance by evicting them from their property; he shall provide an inheritance for his sons from his own property, so that none of My people may be scattered from his property.” ’ ” Our inheritance is heaven (the new heaven-earth). We are ambassadors from heaven. The physical land grants of Abraham still belong to the physical heirs of A.I.&J. Spiritual Judaism (Christianity) is not about the physical but the spiritual. In biblical context... All Jewish born people (the natural olive branches) ARE the chosen people... of this world. That's what antisemitic people (sadly including many Christians) do not [get] and why God will defend Eretz Israel and the Jewish people in this world. Only they are entitled inheritance to the holy land. Spiritual Judaism is believing Jews and Gentile born believers who are the chosen people from above whose Jerusalem is the New Jerusalem / Jerusalem from above. And we are citizens of heaven and ambassadors from God. Galatians 4:21-31 (NKJV) 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written: “Rejoice, O barren, You who do not bear! Break forth and shout, You who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband.” 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free. Eretz Israel is the only nation under God on earth. It's a nice pledge, America. But not true. Israel is the only nation of God on Earth. America WAS a nation based on Christian principles and generally populated by Christians (a nation of Christians rather than a "Christian nation") but that has been no longer the case for a great number of years now. Are you saying that all this time we've been fighting over a disagreement in terminology? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 John - Do you believe Gentile Christians have inherited the birthright to the land of Israel? Absolutely not! Ezekiel 46:18 (NKJV) 18 “Moreover the prince shall not take any of the people’s inheritance by evicting them from their property; he shall provide an inheritance for his sons from his own property, so that none of My people may be scattered from his property.” ’ ” Our inheritance is heaven (the new heaven-earth). We are ambassadors from heaven. The physical land grants of Abraham still belong to the physical heirs of A.I.&J. Spiritual Judaism (Christianity) is not about the physical but the spiritual. In biblical context... All Jewish born people (the natural olive branches) ARE the chosen people... of this world. That's what antisemitic people (sadly including many Christians) do not [get] and why God will defend Eretz Israel and the Jewish people in this world. Only they are entitled inheritance to the holy land. Spiritual Judaism is believing Jews and Gentile born believers who are the chosen people from above whose Jerusalem is the New Jerusalem / Jerusalem from above. And we are citizens of heaven and ambassadors from God. Galatians 4:21-31 (NKJV) 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written: “Rejoice, O barren, You who do not bear! Break forth and shout, You who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband.” 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free. Eretz Israel is the only nation under God on earth. It's a nice pledge, America. But not true. Israel is the only nation of God on Earth. America WAS a nation based on Christian principles and generally populated by Christians (a nation of Christians rather than a "Christian nation") but that has been no longer the case for a great number of years now. Are you saying that all this time we've been fighting over a disagreement in terminology? :24: One New He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations. He made peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new people from the two groups. Ephesians 2:15 (NLT) Man Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 2 Corinthians 5:20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donibm Posted March 10, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 246 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 44 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/11/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/09/1974 Share Posted March 10, 2014 so, I'd suggest all men be careful with these sort of topics that try to drive a wedge between Jew and Gentile. Scriptures themselves warn of this very thing. It is very ironic how the problem among the 1st century believers was Jews trying to force Gentiles into becoming Jews in order to be saved. Ever since then, Gentiles have been trying to force Jews to become Gentiles in order to be saved. If you don't believe me, spend some time with Jews who have come to faith in Messiah, and ask them how [Gentile] Christians make them feel. Who is putting a wedge against who? 1) You have minimized the total event to the first century ... and that makes the core of your response a little off. Yes, they did it in the Scriptures - we can clearly see this. But what about the Ebionites of the 3rd Century who did the same thing? Fast forward to the Spainish Inquisitions that outlawed Jews who were trying to "Judaize"? That was over 1,000 years post the first Century. What about Hellenistic Judaism? What about Messianic Jews of 2014? Don't they also demand that the Sinai Law be observed in ADDITION to repentance? (please do not confuse them for "Christian Jews") 2) There have been some silly things done, yes, I agree. There has been much unwarranted hatred towards Jews, I agree. But I've never heard of Gentiles trying to make Jews become "Gentiles". In fact, the reverse is true. After all, a Gentile to this very day can go through the lengthy process of converting to Judaism, and upon conversation, that person is henceforth called a "Jew". No blood ties to Jacob. No genealogy at all. ... but "Jew"? How does that work? On the flip side, I've never heard of Jews trying to be forced to become Gentiles. 3) Suffice to say that I live in Fort Lauderdale, a highly dense population of Jews. I had a Jew in my class actually. I work with Jews. For the greater part, the religious and non-religious ones tend to keep to themselves with their own schools, shops, restaurants, etc. This is what I know and see. But the CHRISTIAN Jews are just that - Christians. Fellow believers in Jesus. There is no special requirement for them. There is no separate door for them to enter. No different Gospel. There is no difference in that brother and the American or the islander or the African or the Canadian or the Cuban or the... My Church is multicultural. We are ALL brethren in Christ. If they want to attend Jewish feasts and ceremonies, hey, have fun with your countrymen. Nothing wrong with that. But, I suppose I understand what you are attempting to say. I mean, you have "Judaizers" right IN the Church against other Christians (usually the weak and carnal who speak the loudest, but knowing the least). 4) I stick by what I typed. I said that "ALL MEN" (Jew and Gentile alike) need to be careful to not drive a wedge between the flock, and I meant it, for there is ONE Flock and there is ONE Gospel and ONE Shepherd and ONE Door. Who is of Paul? Who is of Apollo? There is neither Jew nor Gentile to God. Grafted. Broken off. Added in again. Adopted (with full benefits). Adopted even to His good pleasure. And that is key. TO HIS GOOD PLEASURE. If God is pleased with it all, I say be careful to not profain what God is pleased with, lest a Judgment be bought on the offender. That is really the only and main point I was trying to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Romans 9-11 is a key passage on Dispensations, Israel vs the Church. Note that the passage states that true Israel is a smaller part of physical Israel. The meaning of Israel is not expanded to include non-descendants of Jacob, but restricted to a subset of them. There is no Israel versus Church. "The Church" is Spirit Israel (All Israel or Complete Israel). Always has been... before Acts 2, before Moses, before Israel (Jacob)... Understand... salvation, faith, etc. has always been about the spiritual versus the physical. This distinction goes all the way back to the beginning. Cain and Abel, Adam and Eve. The Church (ekklesia = assembly the great assembly). False teaching. Prove it. I already have, multiple times. There is no such thing as "Spiritual Israel" that is not in the Bible. It is a made-up term and is reflected in no teaching of God's word. The Bible never spiritualizes "Israel" to refer to the Gentiles. You make up a term and then trying pencil it back into the Scriptures. There is no evidence that the Church goes back to before Moses or Jacob. Nothing in the Bible says that. It's all a patchwork of lies, sloppy exegesis and warped theology based on claims not found in the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 You, Shiloh, have accused me of stringing together scripture. In fact said I am quite good at it. Thank you for the compliment (although you did not intend it that way). I listen to the Tutor of Scripture (who gets all the credit). You all can too. You are listening to "A" spirit, I will grant you that. The fact that you have to string verses together to support your false claims about Israel demonstrates the error present in your theology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted March 13, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,228 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 16,652 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted March 13, 2014 Perhaps if John used the terms "born according to the flesh" vs "born according to the Spirit" as Galatians 4: 29 uses it, his point may be clearer. But I am having trouble following the whole debate. However, I do envy Jews who have received Christ who are also grounded in the Jewish traditions and knowledge of the OT. I believe that they usually have a better grasp on the NT. They often see the references to the calander, feasts holidays and sometimes even the Jewish form of worship alluded to in the NT that goes right over my head. So I am thankful for any insights of this nature they can shed on Scripture. I am sorry if this offends any of you. Blessings, Willa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted March 17, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,644 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,831 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 You, Shiloh, have accused me of stringing together scripture. In fact said I am quite good at it. Thank you for the compliment (although you did not intend it that way). I listen to the Tutor of Scripture (who gets all the credit). You all can too. You are listening to "A" spirit, I will grant you that. The fact that you have to string verses together to support your false claims about Israel demonstrates the error present in your theology. Okay. By your own admission I am using scripture to support what I say. Your denial of what I show to be biblical and accusation of me following "A" spirit have thus far only been merely your opinion. Show me in scripture where I am wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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