Does God know what He will be doing a trillion years from now?

[TruthFirst]

I've been following along, and there are several issues that I would like you to explain, as I have a problem with them....(I removed the entire quotation in order to save space and enhance readability)

 

First is this statement:

 

Jesus did not know Peter would deny Him before the cock crowed. Jesus divested Himself of His Glory, Godly attributes (which include omniscience), and received all knowledge and power from the Holy Spirit. He did this to become truly show by His example the it is possible to live a holy life with the Spirit as our guide. The Spirit was the one who empowered Jesus to heal, perform miracles, etc. The Spirit also reveal everything Jesus needed to know about the spirit world or what was lurking in the hearts of men or future knowledge. Jesus by submitting to the Father and living in the Spirit became our perfect example, proof that we can do that same today.

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: (Phil.2:5-7)

 

First of all, I can not see that this is supported scripturally...although certainly it is not the first time that I have heard it.

 

If Jesus divested Himself of any attribute of God, then He is not God...This is Kenosis and was a very early heresy addressed by the early church.

 

He did not "become" God, nor become "empowered" for His ministry at His baptism...His baptism was for the express purpose of revealing to Israel that Messiah had come. John 1:30-32 states: This is He of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water.”  And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him.

 

That God the Son depended on God the Holy Spirit to please God the Father is ludicrous...because all are of one essence...God.

 

John 1:1-14 settles the issue of whether or not Jesus is God.

 

There is however a definite difference between divesting Himself of the attributes of God, and choosing to rather operate within the limitations of the "human experience". Jesus did not divest Himself of anything...He chose to live as a man...but was also fully God.

 

The Hypostatic Union (That Jesus was both fully God and fully man) is foundational to Christianity

 

(Glory of God = the sum total of all His Attributes) multiplied by infinity

I do not deny the Hypostatic union.

Would you agree that those who saw Jesus, saw the Father? The Glory that Jesus displayed was the Glory of the Godhead, which includes the Father.

However we also know that God told Moses you cannot see my Glory less you be consumed. And then again God did show the back of His Glory in the cleft of the rock. But notice what Glory that was as God passed by (Ex. 34:6):

1) Compassionate (Loving)

2) Gracious (Benevolent)

3) Long-suffering (Patient)

4) Good (Loving-kindness)

5) Truth (Just, Holy)

6) Faithful (Covenant trust)

7) Forgiving (Merciful)

Now what is missing in those attributes? The BIG ones, you’re right.

1) Eternal

2) Omniscient

3) Omnipotent

4) Omnipresent

5) Self-Sufficient

6) Immutable

7) Sovereign

So we have 7 that are communicable and 7 that are non- communicable.  Jesus divested Himself of the non-communicable (less we be consumed) and displayed the communicable ones. But also the Glory that Jesus displayed was not His own it was that of the Father, through the Holy Spirit because the Godhead always works in unity. As you quoted, JOHN 1:14 which is great “…and we beheld His Glory, the Glory of the only begotten of the Father,…  HEB. 1:3 “God…has in these last days spoken to us through His Son… who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person.” By doing this in this way Jesus becomes our example and expects us to take that Glory to the nations. But you say; God said He would not share His Glory with anyone.  I say; We are not anyone, we are the Body of Christ. And so Jesus prayed in JOHN 17:22 “The Glory you have given me, I have given them”. How? The Holy Spirit. He produces that glory in us every day. We are called to exhibit those 7 communicable attributes to a dying world. COL. 1:27 “Christ in you the hope of glory”. Many interpret Col. 1:27 as the hope of glory of heaven or our glorious hope in heaven but the context (verse 26-28) would suggest that **With Christ in us we are the hope of glory to the world.**

[Guest Butero]

 

However we also know that God told Moses you cannot see my Glory less you be consumed. And then again God did show the back of His Glory in the cleft of the rock. But notice what Glory that was as God passed by (Ex. 34:6):

1) Compassionate (Loving)

2) Gracious (Benevolent)

3) Long-suffering (Patient)

4) Good (Loving-kindness)

5) Truth (Just, Holy)

6) Faithful (Covenant trust)

7) Forgiving (Merciful)

Now what is missing in those attributes? The BIG ones, you’re right.

1) Eternal

2) Omniscient

3) Omnipotent

4) Omnipresent

5) Self-Sufficient

6) Immutable

7) Sovereign

So we have 7 that are communicable and 7 that are non- communicable.  

 

How do we come up with those conclusions from God passing by Moses?

[TruthFirst]

Secondly is this statement:

 

The fact, that you believe that God would create a human being for the sole purpose of betraying Jesus and then send him to an eternal torment in hell with no choice whatsoever, is grievous. It is absolutely mind boggling that a God of infinite goodness and love who desires a relationship with every one of His creature could even think of such a diabolical scheme.

 

John 17:11-12 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. (NKJV)

 

I submit the following for consideration:

 

1) One of the twelve was certain to be doomed in order that scripture would be fulfilled. (Ps 41:9, Zech.11:12, et.al)

 

Sometimes Christians have a tendency to think that because it was prophesied God is subject to bring to pass or God saw ahead of time the event so He can now prophesy about it. This is a wrong view point.

God is the author of prophesy not the other way around. God choose that when the time comes Jesus will be betrayed, as opposed to simply being seized by the authorities. There also had to be a manner of death that caused the shedding of blood. Drowning would not do. So when this is decided in the mind of God it is a simple thing for Him to prophesy and bring it to pass.

 

2) That this plan was put into place from the time that man fell in the garden (Gen 3:15)

 

For sure the plan of salvation was, we have no way of knowing that God already then was thinking about the betrayal.

 

3) That God Himself ordained that Messiah would be betrayed and given over to the executioner

 

Yes at some point He did.

 

4) That the cross was necessary and unavoidable in order to complete His redemptive plan for mankind. (Ps 22, Isaiah 53, et.al)

 

Death was unavoidable, crucifixion was certainly the perfect method.

 

5) And all this from the "foundation of the world" (1 Peter 1:19-22)

 

See #2

 

Obviously...one was chosen to be doomed...

 

How, in light of the scriptures and the prophecy do you work around this?

[TruthFirst]

 

I don't believe God has a permissive will.  I believe God created Lucifer as an angel that led in worship, but he created him with flaws.  Over time, the flaws came out.  Iniquity was found in him.  Where did that iniquity come from?  Did it come up out of thin air, like a sort of big bang in Lucifer, or did God create Lucifer the way he was, flaws and all, knowing fully he would turn on him and lead a rebellion?  I believe God knew from the start what Lucifer would do. 

 

 

In a way, we do have free will, and in another way, free will is an illusion.  I say that because God created us, flaws and all, and knew everything we would do in this life.  We make choices, but based on his blueprint.  I will be more than happy to debate this with you, but I know going in that there is no chance you can prove me wrong.  Much of this is based on opinion.  I will give you evidence from scripture that shows God knowing what would happen before it took place, and you will give me scripture where you believe it shows people exercising free will.  Tell me specifically what the topic of the debate is, and I will get with the mods about setting it up, if you really think it is worthwhile and will make a difference. 

 

 

It is hard to have a discussion when people contradict themselves in their own reasoning.

I couldn't pass this up, it's remarkable.

[Guest Butero]

 

 

I don't believe God has a permissive will.  I believe God created Lucifer as an angel that led in worship, but he created him with flaws.  Over time, the flaws came out.  Iniquity was found in him.  Where did that iniquity come from?  Did it come up out of thin air, like a sort of big bang in Lucifer, or did God create Lucifer the way he was, flaws and all, knowing fully he would turn on him and lead a rebellion?  I believe God knew from the start what Lucifer would do. 

 

 

In a way, we do have free will, and in another way, free will is an illusion.  I say that because God created us, flaws and all, and knew everything we would do in this life.  We make choices, but based on his blueprint.  I will be more than happy to debate this with you, but I know going in that there is no chance you can prove me wrong.  Much of this is based on opinion.  I will give you evidence from scripture that shows God knowing what would happen before it took place, and you will give me scripture where you believe it shows people exercising free will.  Tell me specifically what the topic of the debate is, and I will get with the mods about setting it up, if you really think it is worthwhile and will make a difference. 

 

 

It is hard to have a discussion when people contradict themselves in their own reasoning.

I couldn't pass this up, it's remarkable.

 

That is not a contradiction, and all you have done is contradict yourself non stop, as well as saying things like that ludicrous comment about Moses that makes no sense at all.  Some of the comments were so hard to understand and so absurd, I didn't even bother to bring them up. 

[Guest Butero]

Secondly is this statement:

 

The fact, that you believe that God would create a human being for the sole purpose of betraying Jesus and then send him to an eternal torment in hell with no choice whatsoever, is grievous. It is absolutely mind boggling that a God of infinite goodness and love who desires a relationship with every one of His creature could even think of such a diabolical scheme.

 

John 17:11-12 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. (NKJV)

 

I submit the following for consideration:

 

1) One of the twelve was certain to be doomed in order that scripture would be fulfilled. (Ps 41:9, Zech.11:12, et.al)

 

Sometimes Christians have a tendency to think that because it was prophesied God is subject to bring to pass or God saw ahead of time the event so He can now prophesy about it. This is a wrong view point.

God is the author of prophesy not the other way around. God choose that when the time comes Jesus will be betrayed, as opposed to simply being seized by the authorities. There also had to be a manner of death that caused the shedding of blood. Drowning would not do. So when this is decided in the mind of God it is a simple thing for Him to prophesy and bring it to pass.

 

2) That this plan was put into place from the time that man fell in the garden (Gen 3:15)

 

For sure the plan of salvation was, we have no way of knowing that God already then was thinking about the betrayal.

 

3) That God Himself ordained that Messiah would be betrayed and given over to the executioner

 

Yes at some point He did.

 

4) That the cross was necessary and unavoidable in order to complete His redemptive plan for mankind. (Ps 22, Isaiah 53, et.al)

 

Death was unavoidable, crucifixion was certainly the perfect method.

 

5) And all this from the "foundation of the world" (1 Peter 1:19-22)

 

See #2

 

Obviously...one was chosen to be doomed...

 

How, in light of the scriptures and the prophecy do you work around this?

This entire post makes no sense.  I read it and moved on because it makes no sense.  Your previous post made no sense, but I did try to get an explanation about one part of it, just to try to figure out where in the world you came up with those things about Moses and you haven't explained it yet.  I have read that story many times and never got all of that out of it, so I was wondering where you came to those conclusions.  You write all of this stuff that is impossible to understand, and then say you couldn't resist mentioning where I supposedly contradicted myself when I did no such thing? 

 

"In a way we do have free will, and in another way, free will is an illusion." 

 

There is no contradiction there.  God creates me knowing everything I will do in my life.  In that sense, I have no free will.  At the same time, I am making decisions throughout the day, so in that sense, I have free will.  I am choosing to respond to this thread, but God knew I would do that a trillion years ago. 

[Guest Butero]

If you don't believe what you are teaching is doctrine then why did you start this thread in the doctrinal section?      All doctrine means is something taught and it seems to me like you are trying to teach us something in this thread.  It looks to me like you are saying that God is not all knowing, and I'm trying to figure out why you feel like it's important for me to be convinced and come to believe as you do.   Is it your belief that by causing people somehow to think that God doesn't know everything,  that they then will in turn reject the predestination doctrines taught it the scripture?

 

I guess I never considered the thread. My bad. If the moderator wishes to throw this conversation somewhere else, I'm fine with that. Once again I do not say or espouse the thought that God is NOT all knowing. What I'm saying is that the free will decisions, that angels or we make, are not a knowable thing until the very moment of there existence or until it they actually takes place. Therefore, if they do not exist, there is nothing to be known or knowable. God still knows everything. He knows everything about His creation, that goes without saying because He created it. God obviously is aware of every one of His own thoughts as He formulates them in His mind and God knows immediately the thoughts of our own mind as they come in to existence.

 

Now I know that this line of thinking brings up many other questions but no more than thinking that God knows  His own thoughts in advance.

That to me is the most illogical statement ever made. (Not saying you espouse that reasoning because I don’t know exactly where you stand on this issue.) *** REMOVED PERSONAL ATTACK *** The problem with arrogance is that it clouds our judgment. Hence Butero believes that Judas was create for the sole purpose of betraying Jesus and then hell. This thought is a Dung Beatle in the ointment of God’s divine attributes. A loving, good God, in which there is no evil, cannot do that. So there must be another explanation. And when we can’t explain that, we say, well God is sovereign, He can do what He wants. I agree He can do what He wants but never in a way that compromises His other attributes. The sovereignty card becomes a trump card for something that doesn’t make sense but we can’t explain. Whether the potter creates a beautiful vase or a chamber pot, they both have their purpose, especially in the middle of the night, And He desires ALL to be saved and have a relationship with Him.

I used to think along the lines of pre-destination but there was always the nagging question of free will. Actually I believe that if Paul was alive in the days of Calvin, he would have been burned at the stake for his heretical beliefs. But the church at that time wasn’t competent enough to refute his doctrine. So it is here today alive and well poisoning the minds of many, not only Christians but sinners alike. Many a sinner is outside of the kingdom because they cannot conceive a good, gracious and loving God who creates more humans to go to hell than heaven. But when I get them to consider want I believe, all of a sudden I have there full attention. I manage the change their focus from a cruel God to a loving God who a Saviour for them. I take away their excuse of, “Well that’s the way you made me, to go to hell. It’s Your fault not mine”.

This post makes no sense.  The first paragraph contradicts itself.  As arrogant as I am, I decided to let it slide, rather than pointing it out.  You first say God knows all things, and then you say there are things that are not knowable.  God either knows all things, which would mean the future, or he doesn't know all things.  In another thread, you said God could be 99.9 percent certain about things but not 100 percent certain.  That would mean he doesn't know all things.  I saw it before, but I didn't say anything about it.

[TruthFirst]

 

 

However we also know that God told Moses you cannot see my Glory less you be consumed. And then again God did show the back of His Glory in the cleft of the rock. But notice what Glory that was as God passed by (Ex. 34:6):

1) Compassionate (Loving)

2) Gracious (Benevolent)

3) Long-suffering (Patient)

4) Good (Loving-kindness)

5) Truth (Just, Holy)

6) Faithful (Covenant trust)

7) Forgiving (Merciful)

Now what is missing in those attributes? The BIG ones, you’re right.

1) Eternal

2) Omniscient

3) Omnipotent

4) Omnipresent

5) Self-Sufficient

6) Immutable

7) Sovereign

So we have 7 that are communicable and 7 that are non- communicable.  

 

How do we come up with those conclusions from God passing by Moses?

 

 

Exodus 33:18-23

And he said, I beseech thee, show me thy glory.

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.

And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:

And it shall come to pass, while my glory passes by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

 

In response to Moses’ request to see God’s Glory, God says I will make all my goodness pass before thee and yet right after that He says you can’t see my face (the front of his Glory) lest he die. I see here 2 types of Glory, a glory that can be revealed and one that can not. And the revealed Glory is Chap. 34:6-7. The list is there.

 

And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

[Guest Butero]

 

 

 

However we also know that God told Moses you cannot see my Glory less you be consumed. And then again God did show the back of His Glory in the cleft of the rock. But notice what Glory that was as God passed by (Ex. 34:6):

1) Compassionate (Loving)

2) Gracious (Benevolent)

3) Long-suffering (Patient)

4) Good (Loving-kindness)

5) Truth (Just, Holy)

6) Faithful (Covenant trust)

7) Forgiving (Merciful)

Now what is missing in those attributes? The BIG ones, you’re right.

1) Eternal

2) Omniscient

3) Omnipotent

4) Omnipresent

5) Self-Sufficient

6) Immutable

7) Sovereign

So we have 7 that are communicable and 7 that are non- communicable.  

 

How do we come up with those conclusions from God passing by Moses?

 

 

Exodus 33:18-23

And he said, I beseech thee, show me thy glory.

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.

And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:

And it shall come to pass, while my glory passes by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

 

In response to Moses’ request to see God’s Glory, God says I will make all my goodness pass before thee and yet right after that He says you can’t see my face (the front of his Glory) lest he die. I see here 2 types of Glory, a glory that can be revealed and one that can not. And the revealed Glory is Chap. 34:6-7. The list is there.

 

And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

 

 

Thank you.  I feel like what you said was a stretch, but at least I understand where you came up with your conclusions.  What about the other comments he made "and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation?"  To say that that list was the seen by looking at God's back side, and then mention things we don't see, as well as not mentioning those comments seems like a stretch to me. 

[TruthFirst]

"In a way we do have free will, and in another way, free will is an illusion." 

 

There is no contradiction there.  God creates me knowing everything I will do in my life.  In that sense, I have no free will.  At the same time, I am making decisions throughout the day, so in that sense, I have free will.  I am choosing to respond to this thread, but God knew I would do that a trillion years ago. 

 

So God creates Lucifer knowing full well that he will rebel which is exactly part of His plan. And when it happens God sends him to hell. In other words God creates someone with a club foot, they obviously have no say in the matter, but everyone with a club foot goes to hell. Sounds fair to me????

Edited March 22, 2014 by TruthFirst