Does God know what He will be doing a trillion years from now?

[TruthFirst]

 

 

I've been following along, and there are several issues that I would like you to explain, as I have a problem with them....(I removed the entire quotation in order to save space and enhance readability)

 

First is this statement:

 

Jesus did not know Peter would deny Him before the cock crowed. Jesus divested Himself of His Glory, Godly attributes (which include omniscience), and received all knowledge and power from the Holy Spirit. He did this to become truly show by His example the it is possible to live a holy life with the Spirit as our guide. The Spirit was the one who empowered Jesus to heal, perform miracles, etc. The Spirit also reveal everything Jesus needed to know about the spirit world or what was lurking in the hearts of men or future knowledge. Jesus by submitting to the Father and living in the Spirit became our perfect example, proof that we can do that same today.

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: (Phil.2:5-7)

 

First of all, I can not see that this is supported scripturally...although certainly it is not the first time that I have heard it.

 

If Jesus divested Himself of any attribute of God, then He is not God...This is Kenosis and was a very early heresy addressed by the early church.

 

He did not "become" God, nor become "empowered" for His ministry at His baptism...His baptism was for the express purpose of revealing to Israel that Messiah had come. John 1:30-32 states: This is He of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water.”  And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him.

 

That God the Son depended on God the Holy Spirit to please God the Father is ludicrous...because all are of one essence...God.

 

John 1:1-14 settles the issue of whether or not Jesus is God.

 

There is however a definite difference between divesting Himself of the attributes of God, and choosing to rather operate within the limitations of the "human experience". Jesus did not divest Himself of anything...He chose to live as a man...but was also fully God.

 

The Hypostatic Union (That Jesus was both fully God and fully man) is foundational to Christianity

 

(Glory of God = the sum total of all His Attributes) multiplied by infinity

I do not deny the Hypostatic union.

Would you agree that those who saw Jesus, saw the Father? The Glory that Jesus displayed was the Glory of the Godhead, which includes the Father.

However we also know that God told Moses you cannot see my Glory less you be consumed. And then again God did show the back of His Glory in the cleft of the rock. But notice what Glory that was as God passed by (Ex. 34:6):

1) Compassionate (Loving)

2) Gracious (Benevolent)

3) Long-suffering (Patient)

4) Good (Loving-kindness)

5) Truth (Just, Holy)

6) Faithful (Covenant trust)

7) Forgiving (Merciful)

Now what is missing in those attributes? The BIG ones, you’re right.

1) Eternal

2) Omniscient

3) Omnipotent

4) Omnipresent

5) Self-Sufficient

6) Immutable

7) Sovereign

So we have 7 that are communicable and 7 that are non- communicable.  Jesus divested Himself of the non-communicable (less we be consumed) and displayed the communicable ones. But also the Glory that Jesus displayed was not His own it was that of the Father, through the Holy Spirit because the Godhead always works in unity. As you quoted, JOHN 1:14 which is great “…and we beheld His Glory, the Glory of the only begotten of the Father,…  HEB. 1:3 “God…has in these last days spoken to us through His Son… who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person.” By doing this in this way Jesus becomes our example and expects us to take that Glory to the nations. But you say; God said He would not share His Glory with anyone.  I say; We are not anyone, we are the Body of Christ. And so Jesus prayed in JOHN 17:22 “The Glory you have given me, I have given them”. How? The Holy Spirit. He produces that glory in us every day. We are called to exhibit those 7 communicable attributes to a dying world. COL. 1:27 “Christ in you the hope of glory”. Many interpret Col. 1:27 as the hope of glory of heaven or our glorious hope in heaven but the context (verse 26-28) would suggest that **With Christ in us we are the hope of glory to the world.**

 

 

Thank you for your answer...

 

I would however submit (that since we agree on the Hypostatic Union) that Jesus did not divest Himself of those attributes, else He would not be God...at best He would have been some sort of "lesser god"...and we know that is not the case.

 

So then, I posit that even though He still retained all the attributes of God, that He simply chose not to exercise certain of those attributes in His advent...and I think you will agree that there is a definite difference between divestment of certain attributes, and not excercising (but at the same time retaining) those same attributes.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

You know I'm perfectly fine with what you say. It's kind of like. God is light, yet HE has to retract that light in order to display  darkness in our cocoon of a universe. It then allows Him to splash the universe with a panoply of heavenly bodies which display His Glory. And He does that even though He is Omnipresent within our universe.

 

I believe He did that to be our example and show us as humans we can operate in that same way, dependent on the Spirit, and do even greater things as He stated.

[TruthFirst]

 

Well I think so, if God does all things because He knows His own future and sees everything ahead of time. He loses His autonomy or Sovereignty. If He chooses to act sovereignly (I know it’s not a word but bear with me) and change something, it’s not really a change because He knew He would do it in the first place. Where is God’s free will when everything is laid out for Him, in other words he sees it all ahead of time  Himself. If God destroys the earth by fire or by ice what’s the difference? None, the purpose is to get rid of the old to bring in the new. So if God sees ahead of Himself and it’s by fire He can’t change and decide to do by ice. He is trapped in His own foreknowledge.

You say; no god can change and destroy by ice if He wants. Not if He knows everything He is going to do, He just knew He’d change His mind and therefore there is no change and we are back to square one.

This line of thought also devoids God of true meaningful emotion. When God knows eons of years before the time when a sinner is going to commits suicide. How can He be grieved, how can He be hurt at the loss of a precious soul that He wanted to love and bring into eternity?

 

Maybe I should stop here.

 

 

TF, I have been contemplating your line of reasoning, and it just doesn't settle right.

 

What I see here is that you are trying to philosophize the nature of God. But finding truth through philosophy can lead to deception, even though it sounds good. After all, one can justifiably philosophize that their very own existence is an illusion!

 

But I have to reject the premise of your line of reasoning because you are treating "time" by human understanding of time and restricting God to our realm of time. Such a belief places Time above God. Can you justify arguing God being bound to and/or subservient to Time?

 

I dare not try to comprehend God's sovereignty and knowledge, for it indeed is a "great matter" that is beyond me. (Ps. 131).

 

But you, by your philosophy, are claiming the ability to comprehend the mind of God!

 

 

That's fine Nebula, like I said, I'm not hear to convert I'm hear to converse

Just don't allow 2 major thoughts seep in.

 

1) God creates evil. God is good and in there is no evil. He cannot tempt which would be evil and He cannot produce evil as this would against His very character and being.

James 3:11

Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

 

2) Do not think that God involves evil in any way just so that good may come out of it. God does not believe in the end justifies the mean.

Romans 6:1-3

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

God Forbid.

 

Nice chatting with you.

[TruthFirst]

 

2)Shockingly insufficient answer to my points. You make no effort to explain HOW God can so accurately predict future events involving the interaction of miilions upon millions of freewill agents who have not yet even been born. How can God predict the futures of completely unborn people for thousands of years, with billions upon billions of freewill decisions made that affect everythng from births and deaths to marriages and wars and on and on. Remember that your perspective is that the future does not exist at all yet, so even God has NO IDEA of what is going to happen except for the best informed guesses that can be made concerning all of those freewill decisions....unless freewill is a complete illusion and God is the great puppet master pulling the strings. You do not seem like a hyper-sovereignty proponent, but I fail to see how your theory does not force one into that rubric. You need to explain your "piece of cake" much better, perhaps give the recipe, brother!

 

Are you saying, that if my perspective is correct, God is incapable of orchestrating events and influencing individuals so that in the end His prophecies are fulfilled?

Would this be impossible for Him? Is dealing with billions of humans to taxing for Him?

God did it with Pharaoh. God can hardened peoples hearts, influence decision, put thoughts in our mind, control circumstances, introduce new events, place people in authority, as long as God does not meddle with the decisions that affect ones eternal destiny, He can do what He wants. That is true Sovereignty.

It is no problem for God to choose a Roman soldier with a penchant for gambling and promote Him to Captain, and arrange that His unit to be on watch the day of the crucifixion and place the thought in his mind to gamble for Jesus' garments.

[ajchurney]

 

 

2)Shockingly insufficient answer to my points. You make no effort to explain HOW God can so accurately predict future events involving the interaction of miilions upon millions of freewill agents who have not yet even been born. How can God predict the futures of completely unborn people for thousands of years, with billions upon billions of freewill decisions made that affect everythng from births and deaths to marriages and wars and on and on. Remember that your perspective is that the future does not exist at all yet, so even God has NO IDEA of what is going to happen except for the best informed guesses that can be made concerning all of those freewill decisions....unless freewill is a complete illusion and God is the great puppet master pulling the strings. You do not seem like a hyper-sovereignty proponent, but I fail to see how your theory does not force one into that rubric. You need to explain your "piece of cake" much better, perhaps give the recipe, brother!

 

Are you saying, that if my perspective is correct, God is incapable of orchestrating events and influencing individuals so that in the end His prophecies are fulfilled?

Would this be impossible for Him? Is dealing with billions of humans to taxing for Him?

God did it with Pharaoh. God can hardened peoples hearts, influence decision, put thoughts in our mind, control circumstances, introduce new events, place people in authority, as long as God does not meddle with the decisions that affect ones eternal destiny, He can do what He wants. That is true Sovereignty.

It is no problem for God to choose a Roman soldier with a penchant for gambling and promote Him to Captain, and arrange that His unit to be on watch the day of the crucifixion and place the thought in his mind to gamble for Jesus' garments.

 

I hope you see how dangerous you are getting with your hypothetical. For God to "place the thought in his mind to gamble..." is basically painting God as one who tempts to sin, as long as it justifies the end, which violates the very principles you stated to Nebula in the last post. Even in your reply here, you are hedging your bets by allowing for God to put thoughts in the mind and influence decisions, as long as they do not "affect ones eternal destiny". Do you mean sin of any kind here?? God tempts no one, for certain. This is my whole point here, that your viewpoint has to have God guiding and manipulating the thoughts and actions of mostly sinful people in their sin-filled lives, yet never influence them in any way to actually sin in any specific way, lest He be tempting them. I just do not see how this works without God being a total puppet master and hyper-sovereign.

Another difficulty I have is that you have no problem with omnipresence in a now time frame, in which God is personally knowing and interacting with billions of people at the same time continuously (this is true and mind-boggling, beyond our comprehension how God can keep all that straight in His consciousness at once), all the while holding all the molecules together in the universe, and maintaining all the forces of physics and interaction of matter and energy. This is accepted,. as entirely possible and normal for God, but timelessness is completely and utterly incomprehensible and impossible for Him. 

Placing God in a time frame, with Him subject to time and trapped in time (its not His invention or creation and He is actually subject to the movement of time....) carries its own set of limitations upon God and inherent problems, doesn't it?? In at least some sense, this makes Time a force and reality that is above and beyond even God, a context to which God is subject to it. I assume this poses no issue to you.

We seem at an impass because we see eternity (timeless) completely differently. You see this as restricting and trapping God, but I see it as the only scenario where God is truly sovereign and NOT trapped in time and its verities. I respect your viewpoint, and obviously you have put much thought in it. I feel that God has helped me understand eternity (as far as I can at this point) by revelation and illumination, and have received prophetic words in the subject. This is comforting for me, but I obviously would not expect that to influence your understanding, as you have to hear from the Teacher yourself and not from me. Whatever we are both TRULY hearing from Holy Spirit would have to agree, so either one or both of our spiritual ears needs tuning here, but it is always good to dig deep and keep on asking, seeking, and knocking. 

Bless you brother, and I pray your book brings glory to Christ,

Andy

[TruthFirst]

respectful rebuttals:

 

1)Your response here is not in response to my points, but only to restate your own. You have told others that they need to try to see things from your point of view. I have always understood time from a human perspective, and frankly that is all you are doing, and then projecting a completely human experiencial view upon God. It is obvious that you are very intelligent, but God is a Spirit, and His thoughts and ways are NOT ours, but our way is the only way you are trying to understand an infinite God. Nebula's post on this point is very good and worth your serious consideration. 

 

First of all we are all trying to understand God in a human way. That stands to reason we are human. So repeating that doesn't serve any purpose.

 

When I say that there was a point in God's existence when He was all alone, this has nothing to do with our time. This would be God's eternal past. However their came a point in the existence of the Godhead that they chose to discuss and eventually create living beings. How long this discussion went on we have no idea, they could have debated it for a 1000 years which in eternity means nothing. When the decision was made to create angels this became point in God's eternal timeline. Eventually God did create angelic beings and this became another point, another milestone in their existence. It was an important one because not only were they not alone anymore, they now had to accommodate, make room for,  all these creatures. That is also no big deal because God is infinite.

Having just said that, do you not see a succession of events in the eternity of God's existence.

Look at it from another angle. In eternity past God was a Triune Spirit today He is He is the same, however the Son is clothed in a Glorified body that is eternal.

Both these scenarios, which are realities for God and us, suggest that God does have a past, present and future. WAS, IS, and IS TO COME.

[TruthFirst]

 

 

 

2)Shockingly insufficient answer to my points. You make no effort to explain HOW God can so accurately predict future events involving the interaction of miilions upon millions of freewill agents who have not yet even been born. How can God predict the futures of completely unborn people for thousands of years, with billions upon billions of freewill decisions made that affect everythng from births and deaths to marriages and wars and on and on. Remember that your perspective is that the future does not exist at all yet, so even God has NO IDEA of what is going to happen except for the best informed guesses that can be made concerning all of those freewill decisions....unless freewill is a complete illusion and God is the great puppet master pulling the strings. You do not seem like a hyper-sovereignty proponent, but I fail to see how your theory does not force one into that rubric. You need to explain your "piece of cake" much better, perhaps give the recipe, brother!

 

Are you saying, that if my perspective is correct, God is incapable of orchestrating events and influencing individuals so that in the end His prophecies are fulfilled?

Would this be impossible for Him? Is dealing with billions of humans to taxing for Him?

God did it with Pharaoh. God can hardened peoples hearts, influence decision, put thoughts in our mind, control circumstances, introduce new events, place people in authority, as long as God does not meddle with the decisions that affect ones eternal destiny, He can do what He wants. That is true Sovereignty.

It is no problem for God to choose a Roman soldier with a penchant for gambling and promote Him to Captain, and arrange that His unit to be on watch the day of the crucifixion and place the thought in his mind to gamble for Jesus' garments.

 

I hope you see how dangerous you are getting with your hypothetical. For God to "place the thought in his mind to gamble..." is basically painting God as one who tempts to sin, as long as it justifies the end, which violates the very principles you stated to Nebula in the last post. Even in your reply here, you are hedging your bets by allowing for God to put thoughts in the mind and influence decisions, as long as they do not "affect ones eternal destiny". Do you mean sin of any kind here?? God tempts no one, for certain. This is my whole point here, that your viewpoint has to have God guiding and manipulating the thoughts and actions of mostly sinful people in their sin-filled lives, yet never influence them in any way to actually sin in any specific way, lest He be tempting them. I just do not see how this works without God being a total puppet master and hyper-sovereign.

Another difficulty I have is that you have no problem with omnipresence in a now time frame, in which God is personally knowing and interacting with billions of people at the same time continuously (this is true and mind-boggling, beyond our comprehension how God can keep all that straight in His consciousness at once), all the while holding all the molecules together in the universe, and maintaining all the forces of physics and interaction of matter and energy. This is accepted,. as entirely possible and normal for God, but timelessness is completely and utterly incomprehensible and impossible for Him. 

Placing God in a time frame, with Him subject to time and trapped in time (its not His invention or creation and He is actually subject to the movement of time....) carries its own set of limitations upon God and inherent problems, doesn't it?? In at least some sense, this makes Time a force and reality that is above and beyond even God, a context to which God is subject to it. I assume this poses no issue to you.

We seem at an impass because we see eternity (timeless) completely differently. You see this as restricting and trapping God, but I see it as the only scenario where God is truly sovereign and NOT trapped in time and its verities. I respect your viewpoint, and obviously you have put much thought in it. I feel that God has helped me understand eternity (as far as I can at this point) by revelation and illumination, and have received prophetic words in the subject. This is comforting for me, but I obviously would not expect that to influence your understanding, as you have to hear from the Teacher yourself and not from me. Whatever we are both TRULY hearing from Holy Spirit would have to agree, so either one or both of our spiritual ears needs tuning here, but it is always good to dig deep and keep on asking, seeking, and knocking. 

Bless you brother, and I pray your book brings glory to Christ,

Andy

 

 

I assure you I'm certainly not trying to assert that God tempt us. I know full well that He cannot do that. But does that thought have any bearing on his salvation or eternal destiny if he is already a sinner. Don't answer that, because that is a whole different issue. And I just thought of that now, so I won't debate it.

 

(this is true and mind-boggling, beyond our comprehension how God can keep all that straight in His consciousness at once)

Mind-boggling for sure for us, yet once again I believe "a piece of cake " for Him.

 

Eternity timeless

I have no problem with eternity = timeless. I just believe God has a Past eternity, a present and a future eternity.

 

As for my Book it has nothing to do about these discussion, it's all about Discipleship and the vision I received. It about explaining the fundamentals. For instance the message of Salvation through the story of the Wedding at Cana, Repentance while traveling with Jonah and the acronym that God showed me(Re=Recognize you're a sinner - Pen= Approach God with a Penitent heart, Tan= Tangible change of heart, - Ce= Ceasing all sin and righteousness), Obedience with Joshua and Jericho, The correct interpretation of Mat. 7:7 (which is the Title of the book), Chap. 8 is about the 7 gifts of Romans 12 which everyone have.

If you wish to share your address privately I will send you a free copy.

Cheers to you Brother.

[Guest]

Are you saying, that if my perspective is correct, God is incapable of orchestrating events and influencing individuals so that in the end His prophecies are fulfilled?

 

Would this be impossible for Him? Is dealing with billions of humans to taxing for Him?

 

God did it with Pharaoh. God can hardened peoples hearts, influence decision, put thoughts in our mind, control circumstances, introduce new events, place people in authority, as long as God does not meddle with the decisions that affect ones eternal destiny, He can do what He wants. That is true Sovereignty.

 

It is no problem for God to choose a Roman soldier with a penchant for gambling and promote Him to Captain, and arrange that His unit to be on watch the day of the crucifixion and place the thought in his mind to gamble for Jesus' garments.

 

~

 

Impossible~!

 

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1:17

 

Yet Men

 

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Romans 3:10-12

 

Sin

 

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

 

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

 

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. James 1:13-15

 

~

 

Orchestrating

 

My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

 

O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.

 

But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.

 

Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.

 

They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.

 

But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

 

All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head saying,

 

He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

 

But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.

 

I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

 

Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.

 

Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.

 

They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

 

I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

 

My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

 

For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

 

I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

 

They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

 

But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.

 

Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.

 

Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.

 

I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

 

Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.

 

For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

 

My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.

 

The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.

 

All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

 

For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.

 

All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

 

A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

 

They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this. Psalms 22

 

Events

 

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

[enoob57]

respectful rebuttals:

 

1)Your response here is not in response to my points, but only to restate your own. You have told others that they need to try to see things from your point of view. I have always understood time from a human perspective, and frankly that is all you are doing, and then projecting a completely human experiencial view upon God. It is obvious that you are very intelligent, but God is a Spirit, and His thoughts and ways are NOT ours, but our way is the only way you are trying to understand an infinite God. Nebula's post on this point is very good and worth your serious consideration.

 

First of all we are all trying to understand God in a human way. That stands to reason we are human. So repeating that doesn't serve any purpose.

 

When I say that there was a point in God's existence when He was all alone, this has nothing to do with our time. This would be God's eternal past. However their came a point in the existence of the Godhead that they chose to discuss and eventually create living beings. How long this discussion went on we have no idea, they could have debated it for a 1000 years which in eternity means nothing. When the decision was made to create angels this became point in God's eternal timeline. Eventually God did create angelic beings and this became another point, another milestone in their existence. It was an important one because not only were they not alone anymore, they now had to accommodate, make room for,  all these creatures. That is also no big deal because God is infinite.

Having just said that, do you not see a succession of events in the eternity of God's existence.

Look at it from another angle. In eternity past God was a Triune Spirit today He is He is the same, however the Son is clothed in a Glorified body that is eternal.

Both these scenarios, which are realities for God and us, suggest that God does have a past, present and future. WAS, IS, and IS TO COME.

The error of this is that you see God here as in need! It 'IS' not possible for God to lack...

The proper approach is that God in His Good Pleasure has done all things!

Rev 4:11

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power:

for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and

were created.

KJV

We shall, by Jesus'

Work, become permitted to be a part of this eternal pleasure as Holy Intimacy in the eternal

field of Righteousness as His Glory becomes our Glory! We simple set unable to expound upon

this as it does not yet appear what we shall be

1 John 3:2-3

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be:

but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him

as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he

is pure.

KJV

Getting ready for what already 'IS' becomes the great mystery of God's Work... Love, Steven

Edited March 24, 2014 by enoob57