Does God know what He will be doing a trillion years from now?

[Guest Butero]

 

 

 

1. God is not good and evil at the same time, but he is the creator of evil. 

2. God created Lucifer.  That was the plan all along.  That doesn't make God both good and evil. 

     It only means he created an adversary to show a contrast between good and evil.

 The above points I am in contention with you about Scripture!

and it leads to a outright variance to the Word of God...

1 John 4:8

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

KJV

that being in variance is what you have put forth here:

If you read the Bible, you will see what God is capable of doing, and it is not all loving.

Look at how he sent a plague on Israel after David ordered a census be taken. Look atwhat

he did to Lot's wife. Look at how he ordered the destruction of every man, woman and child

in wars he ordered. To say "God is Love" is a bumper sticker version of God, yet many people

hold to it. That is just one of many characteristics of God.

These Are the points I wish to debate with you- not for the point of

human reason but that which we must have in our Scripture foundation

to build all else upon or we will have a skewed reasoning as above!

Love, Steven

 

So what exactly would the debate be about, topic wise?  Do you want to debate whether or not God knew Lucifer would turn on him when he created him?  Do you want to say that God was showing love in the way he dealt with Lot's wife and when he sent a plague on Israel when David ordered a census?  What specifically would the debate be about?

 

Let's make it simple so it does not get diffused into a plethora of thoughts!

God is culpable for evil and satan as he is doing exactly as God wanted him to do....

 

I would put it this way.  God created everything, including evil, and Satan is being what God designed him to be. 

[enoob57]

God didn't create Lucifer thinking he would always be a loyal angel, and then was taken by surprise when Lucifer turned on him.  My position is that God knew exactly what would happen in advance, both with Lucifer and all of his creation.

This I see as skewed reasoning as it proclaims God's sovereignty as causal in His permissive will!

In fact God's gift of eternal choice to His created beings 'IS' The Sovereignty of God in doing so...

As The Eternities are as He has Sovereignly Ordained in those choices! Love, Steven

I don't believe God has a permissive will.  I believe God created Lucifer as an angel that led in worship, but he created him with flaws.  Over time, the flaws came out.  Iniquity was found in him.  Where did that iniquity come from?  Did it come up out of thin air, like a sort of big bang in Lucifer, or did God create Lucifer the way he was, flaws and all, knowing fully he would turn on him and lead a rebellion?  I believe God knew from the start what Lucifer would do. 

 

In a way, we do have free will, and in another way, free will is an illusion.  I say that because God created us, flaws and all, and knew everything we would do in this life.  We make choices, but based on his blueprint.  I will be more than happy to debate this with you, but I know going in that there is no chance you can prove me wrong.  Much of this is based on opinion.  I will give you evidence from scripture that shows God knowing what would happen before it took place, and you will give me scripture where you believe it shows people exercising free will.  Tell me specifically what the topic of the debate is, and I will get with the mods about setting it up, if you really think it is worthwhile and will make a difference.

Your contention is with Scripture and trying to use mans wisdom to proclaim God truth!

Ezek 28:14-15

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon

the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was

found in thee.

KJV

Clearly God is saying one thing and your saying another? Love, Steven

[enoob57]

1. God is not good and evil at the same time, but he is the creator of evil. 

2. God created Lucifer.  That was the plan all along.  That doesn't make God both good and evil. 

     It only means he created an adversary to show a contrast between good and evil.

 The above points I am in contention with you about Scripture!

and it leads to a outright variance to the Word of God...

1 John 4:8

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

KJV

that being in variance is what you have put forth here:

If you read the Bible, you will see what God is capable of doing, and it is not all loving.

Look at how he sent a plague on Israel after David ordered a census be taken. Look atwhat

he did to Lot's wife. Look at how he ordered the destruction of every man, woman and child

in wars he ordered. To say "God is Love" is a bumper sticker version of God, yet many people

hold to it. That is just one of many characteristics of God.

These Are the points I wish to debate with you- not for the point of

human reason but that which we must have in our Scripture foundation

to build all else upon or we will have a skewed reasoning as above!

Love, Steven

So what exactly would the debate be about, topic wise?  Do you want to debate whether or not God knew Lucifer would turn on him when he created him?  Do you want to say that God was showing love in the way he dealt with Lot's wife and when he sent a plague on Israel when David ordered a census?  What specifically would the debate be about?

Let's make it simple so it does not get diffused into a plethora of thoughts!

God is culpable for evil and satan as he is doing exactly as God wanted him to do....

I would put it this way.  God created everything, including evil, and Satan is being what God designed him to be.

That is what I am in contention with according to Scripture! So let's get at it

[Guest Butero]

 

 

 

God didn't create Lucifer thinking he would always be a loyal angel, and then was taken by surprise when Lucifer turned on him.  My position is that God knew exactly what would happen in advance, both with Lucifer and all of his creation.

This I see as skewed reasoning as it proclaims God's sovereignty as causal in His permissive will!

In fact God's gift of eternal choice to His created beings 'IS' The Sovereignty of God in doing so...

As The Eternities are as He has Sovereignly Ordained in those choices! Love, Steven

 

I don't believe God has a permissive will.  I believe God created Lucifer as an angel that led in worship, but he created him with flaws.  Over time, the flaws came out.  Iniquity was found in him.  Where did that iniquity come from?  Did it come up out of thin air, like a sort of big bang in Lucifer, or did God create Lucifer the way he was, flaws and all, knowing fully he would turn on him and lead a rebellion?  I believe God knew from the start what Lucifer would do. 

 

In a way, we do have free will, and in another way, free will is an illusion.  I say that because God created us, flaws and all, and knew everything we would do in this life.  We make choices, but based on his blueprint.  I will be more than happy to debate this with you, but I know going in that there is no chance you can prove me wrong.  Much of this is based on opinion.  I will give you evidence from scripture that shows God knowing what would happen before it took place, and you will give me scripture where you believe it shows people exercising free will.  Tell me specifically what the topic of the debate is, and I will get with the mods about setting it up, if you really think it is worthwhile and will make a difference.

 

Your contention is with Scripture and trying to use mans wisdom to proclaim God truth!

Ezek 28:14-15

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon

the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was

found in thee.

KJV

Clearly God is saying one thing and your saying another? Love, Steven

 

That is too easy.  Satan was created flawed.  The iniquity was always on the inside.  Notice how this is worded.  "Thou was perfect in thy ways from the day thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."  I am saying the iniquity was always on the inside.  It would be like me purchasing a home, and saying it was perfect, till a crack opened up in the wall because of a faulty foundation.  I reject the notion that iniquity came out of nowhere.  I reject the notion that God created Lucifer thinking he was perfect, and God was wrong. 

[enoob57]

God didn't create Lucifer thinking he would always be a loyal angel, and then was taken by surprise when Lucifer turned on him.  My position is that God knew exactly what would happen in advance, both with Lucifer and all of his creation.

This I see as skewed reasoning as it proclaims God's sovereignty as causal in His permissive will!

In fact God's gift of eternal choice to His created beings 'IS' The Sovereignty of God in doing so...

As The Eternities are as He has Sovereignly Ordained in those choices! Love, Steven

I don't believe God has a permissive will.  I believe God created Lucifer as an angel that led in worship, but he created him with flaws.  Over time, the flaws came out.  Iniquity was found in him.  Where did that iniquity come from?  Did it come up out of thin air, like a sort of big bang in Lucifer, or did God create Lucifer the way he was, flaws and all, knowing fully he would turn on him and lead a rebellion?  I believe God knew from the start what Lucifer would do. 

 

In a way, we do have free will, and in another way, free will is an illusion.  I say that because God created us, flaws and all, and knew everything we would do in this life.  We make choices, but based on his blueprint.  I will be more than happy to debate this with you, but I know going in that there is no chance you can prove me wrong.  Much of this is based on opinion.  I will give you evidence from scripture that shows God knowing what would happen before it took place, and you will give me scripture where you believe it shows people exercising free will.  Tell me specifically what the topic of the debate is, and I will get with the mods about setting it up, if you really think it is worthwhile and will make a difference.

Your contention is with Scripture and trying to use mans wisdom to proclaim God truth!

Ezek 28:14-15

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon

the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was

found in thee.

KJV

Clearly God is saying one thing and your saying another? Love, Steven

That is too easy.  Satan was created flawed.  The iniquity was always on the inside.  Notice how this is worded.  "Thou was perfect in thy ways from the day thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."  I am saying the iniquity was always on the inside.  It would be like me purchasing a home, and saying it was perfect, till a crack opened up in the wall because of a faulty foundation.  I reject the notion that iniquity came out of nowhere.  I reject the notion that God created Lucifer thinking he was perfect, and God was wrong.

This is far from the topic of this thread and we need to move to the debate where we may bang away at this!

[enoob57]

Let's make it simple so it does not get diffused into a plethora of thoughts!

God is culpable for evil and satan as he is doing exactly as God wanted him to do....

I would put it this way.  God created everything, including evil, and Satan is being what God designed him to be.

That is what I am in contention with according to Scripture! So let's get at it

this is my understanding of the debated issue between us?

[Guest Butero]

 

 

 

 

 

God didn't create Lucifer thinking he would always be a loyal angel, and then was taken by surprise when Lucifer turned on him.  My position is that God knew exactly what would happen in advance, both with Lucifer and all of his creation.

This I see as skewed reasoning as it proclaims God's sovereignty as causal in His permissive will!

In fact God's gift of eternal choice to His created beings 'IS' The Sovereignty of God in doing so...

As The Eternities are as He has Sovereignly Ordained in those choices! Love, Steven

 

I don't believe God has a permissive will.  I believe God created Lucifer as an angel that led in worship, but he created him with flaws.  Over time, the flaws came out.  Iniquity was found in him.  Where did that iniquity come from?  Did it come up out of thin air, like a sort of big bang in Lucifer, or did God create Lucifer the way he was, flaws and all, knowing fully he would turn on him and lead a rebellion?  I believe God knew from the start what Lucifer would do. 

 

In a way, we do have free will, and in another way, free will is an illusion.  I say that because God created us, flaws and all, and knew everything we would do in this life.  We make choices, but based on his blueprint.  I will be more than happy to debate this with you, but I know going in that there is no chance you can prove me wrong.  Much of this is based on opinion.  I will give you evidence from scripture that shows God knowing what would happen before it took place, and you will give me scripture where you believe it shows people exercising free will.  Tell me specifically what the topic of the debate is, and I will get with the mods about setting it up, if you really think it is worthwhile and will make a difference.

 

Your contention is with Scripture and trying to use mans wisdom to proclaim God truth!

Ezek 28:14-15

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon

the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was

found in thee.

KJV

Clearly God is saying one thing and your saying another? Love, Steven

 

That is too easy.  Satan was created flawed.  The iniquity was always on the inside.  Notice how this is worded.  "Thou was perfect in thy ways from the day thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."  I am saying the iniquity was always on the inside.  It would be like me purchasing a home, and saying it was perfect, till a crack opened up in the wall because of a faulty foundation.  I reject the notion that iniquity came out of nowhere.  I reject the notion that God created Lucifer thinking he was perfect, and God was wrong.

 

This is far from the topic of this thread and we need to move to the debate where we may bang away at this!

 

I agree. 

[TruthFirst]

If you don't believe what you are teaching is doctrine then why did you start this thread in the doctrinal section?      All doctrine means is something taught and it seems to me like you are trying to teach us something in this thread.  It looks to me like you are saying that God is not all knowing, and I'm trying to figure out why you feel like it's important for me to be convinced and come to believe as you do.   Is it your belief that by causing people somehow to think that God doesn't know everything,  that they then will in turn reject the predestination doctrines taught it the scripture?

 

I guess I never considered the thread. My bad. If the moderator wishes to throw this conversation somewhere else, I'm fine with that. Once again I do not say or espouse the thought that God is NOT all knowing. What I'm saying is that the free will decisions, that angels or we make, are not a knowable thing until the very moment of there existence or until it they actually takes place. Therefore, if they do not exist, there is nothing to be known or knowable. God still knows everything. He knows everything about His creation, that goes without saying because He created it. God obviously is aware of every one of His own thoughts as He formulates them in His mind and God knows immediately the thoughts of our own mind as they come in to existence.

 

Now I know that this line of thinking brings up many other questions but no more than thinking that God knows  His own thoughts in advance.

That to me is the most illogical statement ever made. (Not saying you espouse that reasoning because I don’t know exactly where you stand on this issue.) *** REMOVED PERSON ATTACK *** The problem with arrogance is that it clouds our judgment. Hence Butero believes that Judas was create for the sole purpose of betraying Jesus and then hell. This thought is a Dung Beatle in the ointment of God’s divine attributes. A loving, good God, in which there is no evil, cannot do that. So there must be another explanation. And when we can’t explain that, we say, well God is sovereign, He can do what He wants. I agree He can do what He wants but never in a way that compromises His other attributes. The sovereignty card becomes a trump card for something that doesn’t make sense but we can’t explain. Whether the potter creates a beautiful vase or a chamber pot, they both have their purpose, especially in the middle of the night, And He desires ALL to be saved and have a relationship with Him.

I used to think along the lines of pre-destination but there was always the nagging question of free will. Actually I believe that if Paul was alive in the days of Calvin, he would have been burned at the stake for his heretical beliefs. But the church at that time wasn’t competent enough to refute his doctrine. So it is here today alive and well poisoning the minds of many, not only Christians but sinners alike. Many a sinner is outside of the kingdom because they cannot conceive a good, gracious and loving God who creates more humans to go to hell than heaven. But when I get them to consider want I believe, all of a sudden I have there full attention. I manage the change their focus from a cruel God to a loving God who a Saviour for them. I take away their excuse of, “Well that’s the way you made me, to go to hell. It’s Your fault not mine”.

[Guest Butero]

Just one thing I want to make clear.  I don't take the view that God made me a certain way so I might as well sin.  I believe I must make my calling and election sure as scripture teaches by watching how I live.  I would also point out that calling names is a violation of the Terms Of Service.  Calling someone arrogant, no matter if you think it to be true or not, is a violation of the rules you agreed to when you signed up here.

[Mcgyver]

If you don't believe what you are teaching is doctrine then why did you start this thread in the doctrinal section?      All doctrine means is something taught and it seems to me like you are trying to teach us something in this thread.  It looks to me like you are saying that God is not all knowing, and I'm trying to figure out why you feel like it's important for me to be convinced and come to believe as you do.   Is it your belief that by causing people somehow to think that God doesn't know everything,  that they then will in turn reject the predestination doctrines taught it the scripture?

 

I guess I never considered the thread. My bad. If the moderator wishes to throw this conversation somewhere else, I'm fine with that. Once again I do not say or espouse the thought that God is NOT all knowing. What I'm saying is that the free will decisions, that angels or we make, are not a knowable thing until the very moment of there existence or until it they actually takes place. Therefore, if they do not exist, there is nothing to be known or knowable. God still knows everything. He knows everything about His creation, that goes without saying because He created it. God obviously is aware of every one of His own thoughts as He formulates them in His mind and God knows immediately the thoughts of our own mind as they come in to existence.

 

Now I know that this line of thinking brings up many other questions but no more than thinking that God knows  His own thoughts in advance.

That to me is the most illogical statement ever made. (Not saying you espouse that reasoning because I don’t know exactly where you stand on this issue.) *** REMOVED PERSONAL ATTACK *** The problem with arrogance is that it clouds our judgment. Hence Butero believes that Judas was create for the sole purpose of betraying Jesus and then hell. This thought is a Dung Beatle in the ointment of God’s divine attributes. A loving, good God, in which there is no evil, cannot do that. So there must be another explanation. And when we can’t explain that, we say, well God is sovereign, He can do what He wants. I agree He can do what He wants but never in a way that compromises His other attributes. The sovereignty card becomes a trump card for something that doesn’t make sense but we can’t explain. Whether the potter creates a beautiful vase or a chamber pot, they both have their purpose, especially in the middle of the night, And He desires ALL to be saved and have a relationship with Him.

I used to think along the lines of pre-destination but there was always the nagging question of free will. Actually I believe that if Paul was alive in the days of Calvin, he would have been burned at the stake for his heretical beliefs. But the church at that time wasn’t competent enough to refute his doctrine. So it is here today alive and well poisoning the minds of many, not only Christians but sinners alike. Many a sinner is outside of the kingdom because they cannot conceive a good, gracious and loving God who creates more humans to go to hell than heaven. But when I get them to consider want I believe, all of a sudden I have there full attention. I manage the change their focus from a cruel God to a loving God who a Saviour for them. I take away their excuse of, “Well that’s the way you made me, to go to hell. It’s Your fault not mine”.

 

 

But yet, for all that...we are still faced with the problem of Jesus' prayer in John 17...and the fact that one whom He called "the son perdition"...one of the twelve... was doomed that scripture would be fulfilled.

 

The only things that I have seen presented here are Inherent Omniscience and Kenosis...both of which IMO fall flat in the face of the whole counsel of God.

 

I understand the point that you are trying to make, but (respectfully) I am afraid that you haven't proven your case scripturally...