TWO comings TWO raptures

[Guest Jesse]

Jesus said:  immediately after.

Pre trib says:  immediately before. ?

I go for Jesus words.

 

jesse.

[Salty]

Jesus said:  immediately after.

Pre trib says:  immediately before. ?

I go for Jesus words.

 

jesse.

 

Then you should be able to properly align the others events that occur on the day of Christ's return after the tribulation, i.e., the events of the day of The Lord, which includes the battle of Armageddon and the events of Ezek.38 & 39. But in some of your posts you don't do that.

[Montana Marv]

Rev 1:1 - The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show his servants what must soon take place; v3 - Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

 

According to Scripture, what is written in Revelation is prophetic after its writing in 95 AD.  The scroll is not opened until after it was revealed to John.  So the 1st Seal is not the spreading of the Gospel.  "what must soon take place"  from 95 AD means in the future.

 

What is the title "elder"? Titus 1:6 - An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.  An elder is an overseer of the flock or local Church Body.

 

Yet in Rev 4:4 - there 24 elders (overseers) around the throne in heaven before the scroll is handed over to Christ.  The Bride is already in Heaven (in the Fathers House)  before the scroll has been handed over to Christ.  These elders have already received their crowns of glory (the Bema Seat of Christ).  And some say this pre-trib doctrine was started in the 1,800's.  It comes right out of Scripture; one must have their eyes open to the Truth, and not follow some shallow post-trib false doctrine.  An Elder is an overseer of the local Church.  They are in Heaven before the scroll is opened.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Guest Jesse]

Rev 1:1 - The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show his servants what must soon take place; v3 - Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

 

According to Scripture, what is written in Revelation is prophetic after its writing in 95 AD.  The scroll is not opened until after it was revealed to John.  So the 1st Seal is not the spreading of the Gospel.  "what must soon take place"  from 95 AD means in the future.

 

What is the title "elder"? Titus 1:6 - An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.  An elder is an overseer of the flock or local Church Body.

 

Yet in Rev 4:4 - there 24 elders (overseers) around the throne in heaven before the scroll is handed over to Christ.  The Bride is already in Heaven (in the Fathers House)  before the scroll has been handed over to Christ.  These elders have already received their crowns of glory (the Bema Seat of Christ).  And some say this pre-trib doctrine was started in the 1,800's.  It comes right out of Scripture; one must have their eyes open to the Truth, and not follow some shallow post-trib false doctrine.  An Elder is an overseer of the local Church.  They are in Heaven before the scroll is opened.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

I agree.

 

  Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Thise twelve elders are in heaven as propmised by Jesus.

the other twelve could be prophets??.

 

We have  1.Elders

                2.The first fruits.

                3. The majority.

 

jesse.

 

[ENOCH2010]

A lot of elders have died over the past 2000 years...... to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The Bible doesn't say the elders have been raptured to heaven, it was Marv that said that !!!!!!! with Jesse backing him up. That's the problem with the pre-trib doctrine, it's all just the opinions of men, not the word of God.

[Salty]

A lot of elders have died over the past 2000 years...... to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The Bible doesn't say the elders have been raptured to heaven, it was Marv that said that !!!!!!! with Jesse backing him up. That's the problem with the pre-trib doctrine, it's all just the opinions of men, not the word of God.

 

Exactly. Just because John was shown a vision of those elders in Heaven before Jesus and the throne, with crowns (Rev.5), does not mean that happens in chronological order of how John was given visions of Christ's Revelation.

 

The fallacy is how some Church systems of men think the events in Revelation are laid out in exact chronological order, when they are not.

[Hindsfeet]

Question:

Does this view of the Seals and Trumpets being opened concurrently fall into and referred to as the 'post trib' view/belief?

Anyone?

[OneLight]

The fallacy is how some Church systems of men think the events in Revelation are laid out in exact chronological order, when they are not.

 

You have yet explained how they are not.  The 7th seal introduces the 1st trumpet, and the 7th trumpet introduces the 1st bowl.

 

Revelation 8:1 "When He opened the seventh seal ..."  ; 8:6 "So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound."

 

Revelation 11:15 "Then the seventh angel sounded ..." -> visions -> Revelation 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete."

 

For it not to be in sequence, there has to be a whole lot of jumping around scripture, meaning that God has opted to confuse us, yet we know God is not the author of confusion.

 

1 Corinthians 14:33 "For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints."

 

I once considered how you see the events, but scripture clearly did not support it.  They do have certain aspects in common, but they are their own events.

[OneLight]

 

Question:

Does this view of the Seals and Trumpets being opened concurrently fall into and referred to as the 'post trib' view/belief?

Anyone?

 

 

I don't see how it would.  Probably because I do not believe they are done at the same time.  I believe they are sequential.

[Hindsfeet]

Thank you Onelight! and Salty - I just now found your response - Thank you!

 

 

Question:

Does this view of the Seals and Trumpets being opened concurrently fall into and referred to as the 'post trib' view/belief?

 

Not necessarily, because many who hold to post-trib also like pre-trib look at the seals, trumpets, and vials being chronological instead of in parallel.

 

Something to note, for 1,800 years, the Christian Church has held to a post-tribulation coming of Christ Jesus and gathering of His Church. Only in the 1830's did the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine become introduced in some churches, first in Great Britain.