PRE-TRIBBERS Please Explain

[Spock]

Brother Argosy,

I don't think Enoch has an answer that makes sense on this passage in 2 Thess 2.

The passage is so clear, you would have to have a great imagination to show the gathering (rapture) is BEFORE the abomination of desolation, for clearly the passage says three things must occur BEFORE the gathering (rapture) takes place.

Now, I'm sure the pre trib camp (Thomas Ice) has an explanation somewhere, but like I said, it won't make any sense.

I repeat, three things then rapture

Not rapture, then three things.

[ARGOSY]

Brother Argosy,

I don't think Enoch has an answer that makes sense on this passage in 2 Thess 2.

The passage is so clear, you would have to have a great imagination to show the gathering (rapture) is BEFORE the abomination of desolation, for clearly the passage says three things must occur BEFORE the gathering (rapture) takes place.

Now, I'm sure the pre trib camp (Thomas Ice) has an explanation somewhere, but like I said, it won't make any sense.

I repeat, three things then rapture

Not rapture, then three things.

 

 

True,  and I believe any explanation is better than no explanation. but the problem I am having on this website regarding 2 Thess 2:1-3 is that every time I chat to someone else about this verse Enoch 2021 intervenes in the discussion as if he has already refuted my point. But his answer falls short of defining who is being gathered in verse 1. 

[Hindsfeet]

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming Parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

² That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

The 'Day of Christ' will not come until there is a falling away and man of sin is revealed.

 

Gathering Together of the Elect (trib Saints - Redeemed jew and gentile alike) - from the Four Winds, like a thief, as in the days of Noah --- one will be taken the other left - those who are left will have to Flee! compare the two dfferent verses of the 2 in the field in Matt 24 - they are similiar, but different. One will be taken, the other must Flee (AoD)

 

Where are they/we gathering to?

The Marriage Supper of the Lamb!

Matt 22

 

Why?

The Bride has made herself ready!

 

 

Not Interested in Debate, thank you very much. Just feeling the need to Provide this view/information to Chew On. Chew, Graze, Ponder, meditate

Let us all remember that it is an open, teachable mind that are required for the HS to teach and reveal truths.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Hindsfeet

[Enoch2021]

What about the 11th and 12th chapters of Daniel? They do tell us the order or the sequence of the end days. No, they do not tell a time or day or an hour none of the scripture does and you are correct that it does say only the Father knows the time. However, Daniel does tell us the order of the things to come.

 

 

What Specifically in those Chapters are you referring to?

 

And, connect them with the discussion points.

 

Thanks

[Enoch2021]

Brother Argosy,

I don't think Enoch has an answer that makes sense on this passage in 2 Thess 2.

The passage is so clear, you would have to have a great imagination to show the gathering (rapture) is BEFORE the abomination of desolation, for clearly the passage says three things must occur BEFORE the gathering (rapture) takes place.

Now, I'm sure the pre trib camp (Thomas Ice) has an explanation somewhere, but like I said, it won't make any sense.

I repeat, three things then rapture

Not rapture, then three things.

 

 

=======================================================================

 

I don't think Enoch has an answer that makes sense on this passage in 2 Thess 2.

 

No answer eh?

 

Lets go through it (I think I've posted this over 20 times on these threads)

 

The first few Passages are an overview...... a Thesis Statement, then the details of that are outlined in the FOLLOWING PASSAGES!

 

***Special Note ****  The Holy Spirit also uses this Style  (a Thesis Statement or Overview.....THEN, details of that overview in subsequent passages throughout the Entire Bible.  Start with (Genesis 1:1) "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."  Then GOD details that Thesis Statement in the following passages.

 

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:1-8) "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,  {2} That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.  {3} Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

See this is a Thesis Statement  :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:    an overview.   Special Note #2:  See the Semi-Colon after "perdition"? ..... that means the thought is continuing.  Even without the Semi-Colon, it's quite obvious the thought is continuing by the substance of the following CONNECTED passages.....

 

 

{4} Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.  {5} Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?  {6} And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.  {7} For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.  {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

 

 

See the "man of sin" and "son of perdition" in (2 Thessalonians 2:3) and "THAT WICKED" in (2 Thessalonians 2:8)  ARE ALL THE SAME PERSONAGE!!!

 

So we have the "man of sin" and "son of perdition" being referred to and the sequence in verse 3.  Verse 4 Through 8 Gives a detailing on HOW that will happen.

 

We have "man of sin" and "son of perdition"   =     "That Wicked"

 

How  SPECIFICALLY will "that wicked" be revealed?  Paul tells you right here.....

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.  {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

 

And then........."Key Phrase".  It points you first to the Antecedent......."until he be taken out of the way", then to what happens when the Antecedent is accomplished..........That wicked be revealed.

 

 

Questions?

[mevosper]

 

 

Questions?

 

 

I have a question. Are you equating the "falling away first" (verse 3) with the letting of "he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way" (verse 7)?

 

 

 

 

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:1-8) "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,  {2} That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.  {3} Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

....

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.  {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, 

 

 

Questions?

 

 

From your interpretation, it seems like that is what you are doing. The reason I say this is if verses 1-3 are a thesis statement, and verses 6-8 provide the detail, there is some conflicting information. 

 

2 Thess 2:1-8

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

 

Enoch, this is what I'm hearing you say Paul is saying:

1. (in verse 3) That day shall not come (the day of Christ. Is this the "rapture"?), except there be first a falling away and the man of sin is revealed (the Anti-Christ).

2. (in verse 4) the "he" is the AC. 

3. (in verse 6) something is withholding the "he (AC)" from being revealed (it seems from verse 3 the falling away is the "withholding" factor. It's not the day of Christ that is withholding).

4. (in verse 7)

A. the "he" in 'only he who now letteth will let' and 'until he be taken out of the way' is the HS

B. the "letteth will let" and "taken out of the way" is the rapture. 

5. (in verse 8) once the "letting" is done, then the revealing of the AC happens. (The conflict here is that according to verse 3 (see point 3 and point 1), the withholding factor is the "falling away", which from your interpretation is the rapture, but it really can't be if it (the rapture) is also the day of Christ - unless of course there are multiple raptures, and one happens to be a "falling away".) 

 

Is this what you are saying or any pre-tribber for that matter? If not, please Please PLEASE in a more simple manner, explain what you are saying if it differs from the five points above. 

Edited April 12, 2014 by mevosper

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

=======================================================================================

 

I have a question. Are you equating the "falling away first" (verse 3) with the letting of "he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way" (verse 7)?

 

 

Funny you should mention that.  I've heard some Greek Experts say the "Falling Away" (Apostasia) can mean to be removed or something to that effect.  However, I am no Greek Expert and I've taken it with a Grain of Salt.

 

Having said that, and this is quite interesting;  If "falling away" does just mean Apostasy, then what in the World would that look like compared to current times?  There's so much Apostasy now it's really quite hard to imagine what any more would look like....it would just be redundant, IMHO.

 

1. (in verse 3) That day shall not come (the day of Christ. Is this the "rapture"?), except there be first a falling away and the man of sin is revealed (the Anti-Christ).

 

The "day of Christ" is the Second Coming, not the Rapture.

 

 

2. (in verse 4) the "he" is the AC.

 

Yes, and is also speaking to the Abomination of Desolation

 

 

(in verse 6) something is withholding the "he (AC)" from being revealed (it seems from verse 3 the falling away is the "withholding" factor. It's not the day of Christ that is withholding).

 

Well the "Falling Away" is a concept or an event and an inanimate object it does not "Withhold" anything.

 

4. (in verse 7)

A. the "he" in 'only he who now letteth will let' and 'until he be taken out of the way' is the HS 

 

The "he" is the Holy Spirit.  Correct

 

 

B. the "letteth will let" and "taken out of the way" is the rapture.

 

The Holy Spirit was given to the Church when Christ left.  There's is Absolutely "No Way" "He" will leave "The Church"...."he's" the Embodiment of it.  So Yes, that speaks Rapture to me.

 

 

(The conflict here is that according to verse 3 (see point 3 and point 1), the withholding factor is the "falling away", which from your interpretation is the rapture, but it really can't be if it (the rapture) is also the day of Christ - unless of course there are multiple raptures, and one happens to be a "falling away".)

 

Incorrect.  As I mentioned previously, The "falling away" is an event/concept and an Inanimate Object...it's not withholding anything.  It's also a Logical Fallacy (Reification).  The "he" in verse 7 is the one "withholding".

 

The Rapture and "the day of Christ" are two separate events.

 

 

Moreover:  "The Doctrine of Imminence" OR The Next Expectation.  If the Rapture is @ any point "After" the "Confirming of the Covenant" for 7 years, it would Violate this Doctrine and dozens of Scriptures, including these....

 

(Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

(Mark 13:32) " But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

(Luke 12:40) " Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

 

 

Why/How?  Well....

 

(Daniel 9:27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

 

The Majority of Christians "who've been studying GOD'S WORD" and are familiar with Daniel 9:27......once hearing or seeing this 7 Year Covenant can now pull out their Calendars and Watches and set the time of Christ's Second Coming.

 

Follow?

[Spock]

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming Parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

² That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The 'Day of Christ' will not come until there is a falling away and man of sin is revealed.

Gathering Together of the Elect (trib Saints - Redeemed jew and gentile alike) - from the Four Winds, like a thief, as in the days of Noah --- one will be taken the other left - those who are left will have to Flee! compare the two dfferent verses of the 2 in the field in Matt 24 - they are similiar, but different. One will be taken, the other must Flee (AoD)

Where are they/we gathering to?

The Marriage Supper of the Lamb!

Matt 22

Why?

The Bride has made herself ready!

Not Interested in Debate, thank you very much. Just feeling the need to Provide this view/information to Chew On. Chew, Graze, Ponder, meditate

Let us all remember that it is an open, teachable mind that are required for the HS to teach and reveal truths.

Greetings Brother or Sister Hindsfeet,

I too, like you, am surprised at the discussion regarding this simple verse 3 in this chapter.

It seems pretty obvious to me that before the rapture can occur, three things have to happen, and thus the church should be looking for them. So, how in the world can the church be gone if she is supposed to be looking for these three things?

It makes no sense to me.

I've read Enoch's position several times and each time I read it I walk away scratching my head. Say what?

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I guess it might have more than one interpretation, but "that day won't come (rapture) until these things happen". It seems clear cut enough.

Oh well, maybe I'm wrong (again).......

We shall see.

[OneLight]

I have noticed more than once that people are forgetting online etiquette when posting.  When talking to someone in person, there are many factors that come into play; body language, tone of voice, facial expressions, etc.  Online, there is only what is posted.  Nobody can read your mind to understand your intentions,  nor hear the tone of your voice.  They can neither see your expressions or your body language.

 

In many of the most recent posts, there has been increased fonts, placed in bold.  Reading this kind of posting is like someone raising their voice - kin to being in an argument when voices are raised.  Doing this in all caps is like screaming in someones face.  Please refrain from these types of posting habits.

 

If you want a word or phrase to stick out, there are other ways of doing this that do not include raising your voice, like changing the font color, using the bold - italic - underline features.

 

Please take the time to understand proper etiquette.  Here is a link to the Madison Area Technical College online ethics, or recently known as Netiquette. There are many more online sources that echo basically the same reasoning.

 

It is a fact that words are better accepted when respect is applied.  Increasing the font or using all caps is not showing respect, but engaging in the actions displayed in an argument.
 
Try to put yourself in the place of the reader who has no preconceived idea of your intentions. 
 
Remember Colossians 4:6

Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

===========================================================================

 

It seems pretty obvious to me that before the rapture can occur, three things have to happen

 

What 3 things?

 

 

So, how in the world can the church be gone if she is supposed to be looking for these three things

 

Can you show me where in that Passage it says that they are or suppose to be "Looking" for these 3 things"?

 

Paul's whole reason in writing this is that there was a "forgery" floating around and the Thessalonians were troubled because they thought they had either missed the Rapture and/or the previous teaching was wrong.

 

Paul's admonition wasn't focusing on the Thessalonians "Looking" for any signs...... but to be careful of any "False Teaching".   A Clarification.

 

I've read Enoch's position several times and each time I read it I walk away scratching my head. Say what?

 

I guess people can make it say what they want it to say, but "that day won't come (rapture) until ........happens" seems clear cut enough.

 

Make it what they want it to say?

 

It's Attention to Detail Spock and Rightly Dividing the WORD.

 

Because "that day won't come" is not speaking to The Rapture.....Paul is speaking to "the day of Christ"

 

In Verse 1: "by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him," --------------------------------->The Rapture

 

Verse 2: "the day of Christ" is at hand" -------------------------------------------------> Second Coming

 

See the difference?  In Verse 2, this day or time period was already @ hand.

 

GOD'S WORD is extremely Precise.... (Matthew 5:18) " For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

 

 

If these two ( "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and "the day of Christ") were the same, then why didn't Paul in the very next Verse, just say......

 

"that day" of Christ...... because he just referenced it and is a direct reference to the Antecedent (coming of our Lord Jesus Christ). 

 

But that's not what he said.....

 

What did he say....that "the" day of Christ.

 

The "The" is a game changer in this specific instance and differentiates ( coming of our Lord Jesus Christ from the day of Christ)

 

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3) "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,  {2} That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.  {3} Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

 

 

See it?