THE RESTRAINER

[OneLight]

Ok let's look at the context of Revelation 12. It is central to this topic, because obviously I'm placing the 1260 days of protection of Israel and the persecution of the saints directly into the Great Tribulation.

For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night,has been hurled down. They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea,because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short

Yes you are correct that Rev 12 concerns the birth of Jesus, but if you read the above wording you see that Rev 12 continues to describe events well after the crucifixion when Christianity was birthed. Firstly the term "brothers and sisters" is used to denote Christians, this is confirmed by the phrase "blood of the lamb" , and "word of our testimony". The order of events is , birth of Jesus, then the accuser accuses Christians until Christians overcome Satan. Then Satan falls down to earth for a short period of wrath.

This short period of wrath is after Satan is hurled down, and is for exactly 3.5 years ( a time, times and half a time), Israel is kept safe during this period of wrath:

When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

Yet Christians are persecuted during this short period of 3.5 years of Israel's protection and Satan's wrath:

Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

This fits in with Daniel 7 that also refers to this 3.5 years of persecution just before the second coming:

25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time. “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High

This also fits in with Rev 13 which also talks of the 3.5 years of persecution of the beast:

5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

So let's not be immature about this, its the bible speaking here, not the words of man. The bible is saying that after Christians have been accused for a period, we will overcome Satan who will be removed from his heavenly place , and come to earth for 3.5 years of wrath and persecution of Christians. This fits in with other verses like 2 Thessalonians 2 , Daniel 7, Rev 13 which also speak of a short period or 3.5 years of Satan's wrath and persecution, known as the great tribulation.

So if you read your bible carefully you can see that the timing of Satan's removal from heaven occurs at the same moment as the timing of the restrainer's removal, and both result in the same short period of Satan's manifestation on earth.

 

I see a common error in your theology, a mistake made by many when they try to find similarities in scripture instead of letting scripture speak for itself.

 

The time Satan was defeated and thrown out of heaven is a past event, shown by the persecution of Mary into the wilderness after Jesus birth, protecting them from when Herod went about killing all male children 2 and younger.  They were protected against his onslaught of the children.

 

The revealing to the son of perdition is a future event that will take place somewhere in the middle of the tribulation 7 year period.  This time has not yet come.

 

They are not one and the same event.  They have certain similarities, I agree, but are not the same event.

 

Now, I also need to address how you insinuate that  1) I am addressing this immaturely, and 2) need to study scripture more carefully.  I can assure you that neither are true.  You should take a closer look at the Terms of Service you agreed to when you requested membership to this site, specifically the parts about insulting or attacking other members, even if it is in a passive aggressive manner.  It is a common tactic to belittle another person to accomplish two things: 1) weaken the stance of the opposing person and 2) strengthen the stance of the accuser.   This need not be done in any discussion, but is commonly found when someone believes they are loosing an argument.  Please refrain from doing so in the future.  Discuss the topic at hand, not the person/people involved.

[ARGOSY]

Though you may not desire to read the topic on www.gracethrufaith.com by Jack Kelly but he had a great explanation of this today called "The nature of post church salvation". May I recommend that you read it?

thanks, I read it, I didn't find one significant point there. Once again a series of weak arguments to support the pre-trib rapture and yet when I present trong arguments against a pre-trib rapture in some topics on this prophecy forum I only get weak responses. You are welcome to present what you feel are the two strongest points there and we can discuss it. And anyone else can also help you out. I would like someone to present one of those arguments so I can highlight how insignificant those points actually are.

The end result is a series of weak points for pre-trib rapture and a series of strong arguments for a post-trib rapture. This is not a salvation issue, its just a matter of better preparation if you are looking for the correct signs and sequence of events leading up to our resurrection..

[ARGOSY]

Ok let's look at the context of Revelation 12. It is central to this topic, because obviously I'm placing the 1260 days of protection of Israel and the persecution of the saints directly into the Great Tribulation.

For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night,has been hurled down. They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea,because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short

Yes you are correct that Rev 12 concerns the birth of Jesus, but if you read the above wording you see that Rev 12 continues to describe events well after the crucifixion when Christianity was birthed. Firstly the term "brothers and sisters" is used to denote Christians, this is confirmed by the phrase "blood of the lamb" , and "word of our testimony". The order of events is , birth of Jesus, then the accuser accuses Christians until Christians overcome Satan. Then Satan falls down to earth for a short period of wrath.

This short period of wrath is after Satan is hurled down, and is for exactly 3.5 years ( a time, times and half a time), Israel is kept safe during this period of wrath:

When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

Yet Christians are persecuted during this short period of 3.5 years of Israel's protection and Satan's wrath:

Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

This fits in with Daniel 7 that also refers to this 3.5 years of persecution just before the second coming:

25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time. “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High

This also fits in with Rev 13 which also talks of the 3.5 years of persecution of the beast:

5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

So let's not be immature about this, its the bible speaking here, not the words of man. The bible is saying that after Christians have been accused for a period, we will overcome Satan who will be removed from his heavenly place , and come to earth for 3.5 years of wrath and persecution of Christians. This fits in with other verses like 2 Thessalonians 2 , Daniel 7, Rev 13 which also speak of a short period or 3.5 years of Satan's wrath and persecution, known as the great tribulation.

So if you read your bible carefully you can see that the timing of Satan's removal from heaven occurs at the same moment as the timing of the restrainer's removal, and both result in the same short period of Satan's manifestation on earth.

 

I see a common error in your theology, a mistake made by many when they try to find similarities in scripture instead of letting scripture speak for itself.

 

The time Satan was defeated and thrown out of heaven is a past event, shown by the persecution of Mary into the wilderness after Jesus birth, protecting them from when Herod went about killing all male children 2 and younger.  They were protected against his onslaught of the children.

I already refuted this argument when I pointed out that the bible says that satan was thrown out of heaven by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony. ie Satan was thrown out during the church age, not earlier as you are claiming.

The revealing to the son of perdition is a future event that will take place somewhere in the middle of the tribulation 7 year period.  This time has not yet come.

 

They are not one and the same event.  They have certain similarities, I agree, but are not the same event.

 

Now, I also need to address how you insinuate that  1) I am addressing this immaturely, and 2) need to study scripture more carefully.  I can assure you that neither are true.  You should take a closer look at the Terms of Service you agreed to when you requested membership to this site, specifically the parts about insulting or attacking other members, even if it is in a passive aggressive manner.  It is a common tactic to belittle another person to accomplish two things: 1) weaken the stance of the opposing person and 2) strengthen the stance of the accuser.   This need not be done in any discussion, but is commonly found when someone believes they are loosing an argument.  Please refrain from doing so in the future.  Discuss the topic at hand, not the person/people involved

I meant no insult when I said that. I just find its difficult to break out of preconceived beliefs in favor of the straightforward wording of the bible and wishing that we all could just accept the bible at face value. I am sure you hope for the same.

My apologies for the insinuation. However I do feel that the context of the fall of Satan is clearly after the birth of the male child and within the church age and kindly ask you to reconsider your position on this matter:

Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come the salvation and the power

and the kingdom of our God,

and the authority of his Messiah.

For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,

who accuses them before our God day and night,

has been hurled down.

11 They triumphed over him

by the blood of the Lamb

and by the word of their testimony;

they did not love their lives so much

as to shrink from death.

12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens

and you who dwell in them!

But woe to the earth and the sea,

because the devil has gone down to you!

He is filled with fury,

because he knows that his time is short.”

13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

[OneLight]

I see a common error in your theology, a mistake made by many when they try to find similarities in scripture instead of letting scripture speak for itself.

 

The time Satan was defeated and thrown out of heaven is a past event, shown by the persecution of Mary into the wilderness after Jesus birth, protecting them from when Herod went about killing all male children 2 and younger.  They were protected against his onslaught of the children.

I already refuted this argument when I pointed out that the bible says that satan was thrown out of heaven by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony. ie Satan was thrown out during the church age, not earlier as you are claiming.

Because someone refutes something does not mean they were correct.

I do appreciate the correction you made, changing the "OUR" to "their", which is past tense. The whole passage, Revelation 12:7-12, is about what took place in heaven, the battle from verses 7 to 9, which was announced to us in verses 10 - 12. The passage fits in just nicely as it tells the story from the birth of Christ, how God protected the family, how Satan fought the battle and lost, ending with how Satan went to make battle with the rest of her offspring who kept the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Since you do not see it that way, tell us what you see as the timing between verses 1-6, 7-12 and 13-17.

The revealing to the son of perdition is a future event that will take place somewhere in the middle of the tribulation 7 year period.  This time has not yet come.

 

They are not one and the same event.  They have certain similarities, I agree, but are not the same event.

 

Now, I also need to address how you insinuate that  1) I am addressing this immaturely, and 2) need to study scripture more carefully.  I can assure you that neither are true.  You should take a closer look at the Terms of Service you agreed to when you requested membership to this site, specifically the parts about insulting or attacking other members, even if it is in a passive aggressive manner.  It is a common tactic to belittle another person to accomplish two things: 1) weaken the stance of the opposing person and 2) strengthen the stance of the accuser.   This need not be done in any discussion, but is commonly found when someone believes they are loosing an argument.  Please refrain from doing so in the future.  Discuss the topic at hand, not the person/people involved

I meant no insult when I said that. I just find its difficult to break out of preconceived beliefs in favor of the straightforward wording of the bible and wishing that we all could just accept the bible at face value. I am sure you hope for the same.

My apologies for the insinuation. However I do feel that the context of the fall of Satan is clearly after the birth of the male child and within the church age and kindly ask you to reconsider your position on this matter:

Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come the salvation and the power

and the kingdom of our God,

and the authority of his Messiah.

For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,

who accuses them before our God day and night,

has been hurled down.

11 They triumphed over him

by the blood of the Lamb

and by the word of their testimony;

they did not love their lives so much

as to shrink from death.

12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens

and you who dwell in them!

But woe to the earth and the sea,

because the devil has gone down to you!

He is filled with fury,

because he knows that his time is short.”

13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

As I read the verses I do not come to the conclusion that this event encompasses the whole church age, making it the same event as the revealing of the son of perdition, as you previously claimed and the reason for this discussion. Taking at face value, as you ask, the events in verses 10-13 are past tense in nature, speaking of what had already happened. We cannot ignore the tense of the words used. Now is present tense, has been/had been is past tense, triumphed is past tense, did not is past tense. To try and indicate this is present/future tense is incorrect.

[ARGOSY]

I see a common error in your theology, a mistake made by many when they try to find similarities in scripture instead of letting scripture speak for itself.

 

The time Satan was defeated and thrown out of heaven is a past event, shown by the persecution of Mary into the wilderness after Jesus birth, protecting them from when Herod went about killing all male children 2 and younger.  They were protected against his onslaught of the children.

I already refuted this argument when I pointed out that the bible says that satan was thrown out of heaven by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony. ie Satan was thrown out during the church age, not earlier as you are claiming.

Because someone refutes something does not mean they were correct.

I do appreciate the correction you made, changing the "OUR" to "their", which is past tense. The whole passage, Revelation 12:7-12, is about what took place in heaven, the battle from verses 7 to 9, which was announced to us in verses 10 - 12. The passage fits in just nicely as it tells the story from the birth of Christ, how God protected the family, how Satan fought the battle and lost, ending with how Satan went to make battle with the rest of her offspring who kept the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Since you do not see it that way, tell us what you see as the timing between verses 1-6, 7-12 and 13-17.

The revealing to the son of perdition is a future event that will take place somewhere in the middle of the tribulation 7 year period.  This time has not yet come.

 

They are not one and the same event.  They have certain similarities, I agree, but are not the same event.

 

Now, I also need to address how you insinuate that  1) I am addressing this immaturely, and 2) need to study scripture more carefully.  I can assure you that neither are true.  You should take a closer look at the Terms of Service you agreed to when you requested membership to this site, specifically the parts about insulting or attacking other members, even if it is in a passive aggressive manner.  It is a common tactic to belittle another person to accomplish two things: 1) weaken the stance of the opposing person and 2) strengthen the stance of the accuser.   This need not be done in any discussion, but is commonly found when someone believes they are loosing an argument.  Please refrain from doing so in the future.  Discuss the topic at hand, not the person/people involved

I meant no insult when I said that. I just find its difficult to break out of preconceived beliefs in favor of the straightforward wording of the bible and wishing that we all could just accept the bible at face value. I am sure you hope for the same.

My apologies for the insinuation. However I do feel that the context of the fall of Satan is clearly after the birth of the male child and within the church age and kindly ask you to reconsider your position on this matter:

Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come the salvation and the power

and the kingdom of our God,

and the authority of his Messiah.

For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,

who accuses them before our God day and night,

has been hurled down.

11 They triumphed over him

by the blood of the Lamb

and by the word of their testimony;

they did not love their lives so much

as to shrink from death.

12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens

and you who dwell in them!

But woe to the earth and the sea,

because the devil has gone down to you!

He is filled with fury,

because he knows that his time is short.”

13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

As I read the verses I do not come to the conclusion that this event encompasses the whole church age, making it the same event as the revealing of the son of perdition, as you previously claimed and the reason for this discussion. Taking at face value, as you ask, the events in verses 10-13 are past tense in nature, speaking of what had already happened. We cannot ignore the tense of the words used. Now is present tense, has been/had been is past tense, triumphed is past tense, did not is past tense. To try and indicate this is present/future tense is incorrect.

I enjoy a good point, and at face value you seemed to make one. however on closer analysis most of Revelation is written in the past tense, even events that are undoubtedly future. Some examples of this are the second coming, and the millenium:

rev 20: They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown.

Rev 19:

Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh

So that refutes your argument that the usage of the past tense is referring to past events.

Furthermore are you a preterist? Whether your answer is yes or no to that question, kindly provide me with the period in history when you feel that Israel was kept safe for 3.5 years while Christians were being persecuted:

When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

[OneLight]

I enjoy a good point, and at face value you seemed to make one. however on closer analysis most of Revelation is written in the past tense, even events that are undoubtedly future. Some examples of this are the second coming, and the millenium:

rev 20: They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown.

Rev 19:

Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh

So that refutes your argument that the usage of the past tense is referring to past events.

No, not really. When Jesus spoke to John in Revelation 1:19, Jesus said "Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this." Though John wrote of what he was witnessing, it was in the past tense to him, but is not always in the past tense to us, so scripture has to back up scripture.

We know the birth of Jesus, the flight into Egypt, the slaughter of male children 2 and younger, and the beginning of what the church (His body) would go through are all past history. We also know through scripture that the tribulation is the future. While studying scripture, one needs to pay attention to, and understand, the context it is written in. Trying to make the past and the future into one event is not how scripture is written.

 

Furthermore are you a preterist?

No. I am not sure how you would come up with this since I have always spoken otherwise.

 

Whether your answer is yes or no to that question, kindly provide me with the period in history when you feel that Israel was kept safe for 3.5 years while Christians were being persecuted:

When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

The woman spoken of here is Mary, the mother of Jesus, who gave birth to Him. The woman is not Israel. Mary was in Egypt, I believe, for 3 1/2 years before they all returned. Some early writer give this time between one and seven years. Scripture tells us she fled into the wilderness for 3 1/2 years, so I will stick with scripture.

Revelation 12:6

Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

and again in Revelation 12:14

 

But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

[tigger398]

This is confusing 

 

 

The "Restrainer", the Holy Spirit, restrains not only the appearance of the anti-Christ but also the intentions of Satan in order to protect the Church. At the Rapture (which I guess I don't know what I know) the Holy Spirit will no longer indwell everyone who is a member of the Church as a guatantee of our salvation because the Church will be gone, any new believer will not be a member of the Church (the Church will have been Raptured) but the Holy Spirit will return to His pre-Christ role of coming upon individual believers. Since the Temple will be rebuilt and sacrifice renewed, each person will be required to maintain their own salvation. Both throught faith in Christ and obedience to the Law. They will no longer have the protection that the Church has as a guarantee of our salvation. But the Holy Spirit will still be doing It's work. Otherwise, no one would be saved after the Rapture.

This is all unbiblical speculation. There is nothing in the bible that supports an earlier rapture, and nothing in the bible that hints that the Holy Spirit will be removed. You are using one unbiblical view to support another unbiblical view, and then using both views to support eachother. Yet in every case that a rapture is actually mentioned, the context has more support for a second coming event that a pre-tribulation event.

 

Is this another rapture post. Or is this about the antichrist.     The antichrist comes after rapture.  I never heard of satan holding back antichrist. 

[Enoch2021]

The woman spoken of here is Mary, the mother of Jesus, who gave birth to Him. The woman is not Israel. Mary was in Egypt, I believe, for 3 1/2 years before they all returned. Some early writer give this time between one and seven years. Scripture tells us she fled into the wilderness for 3 1/2 years, so I will stick with scripture.

Revelation 12:6

Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

and again in Revelation 12:14

 

But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

 

 

 

 

================================================================================================

 

 

The woman spoken of here is Mary, the mother of Jesus, who gave birth to Him. The woman is not Israel.

 

You're Mistaken here, The Woman is Israel. And is described here by Joseph.....

 

(Genesis 37:9) "And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me."

 

(Revelation 12:1) "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:"

 

And you said this....

 

When Jesus spoke to John in Revelation 1:19, Jesus said "Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this."

 

John didn't witness Mary Giving Birth and Fleeing to Egypt.

 

 

(Revelation 12:17) "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

 

Israel's Seed....

 

(Micah 2:12) "I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men."

 

The Remnant flees to Bozrah, Modern Day Petra (Indiana Jones) and a Sheepfold, chased by the antichrist armies ...

 

 

 

 

Then.....

 

Jesus Kills all of them, Himself..... This is Frightening:

 

(Isaiah 63:1-6) "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.  {2} Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?  {3} I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.  {4} For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.  {5} And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.  {6} And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth."

 

(Revelation 14:20) "And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

 

Well.....

 

 

 

All Slides Courtesy of Dr. Chuck Missler

 

 

Hope it helps

[OneLight]

The woman spoken of here is Mary, the mother of Jesus, who gave birth to Him. The woman is not Israel. Mary was in Egypt, I believe, for 3 1/2 years before they all returned. Some early writer give this time between one and seven years. Scripture tells us she fled into the wilderness for 3 1/2 years, so I will stick with scripture.

Revelation 12:6

Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

and again in Revelation 12:14

 

But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

The woman spoken of here is Mary, the mother of Jesus, who gave birth to Him. The woman is not Israel.

 

You're Mistaken here, The Woman is Israel. And is described here by Joseph.....

 

(Genesis 37:9) "And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me."

 

(Revelation 12:1) "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:"

 

And you said this....

 

When Jesus spoke to John in Revelation 1:19, Jesus said "Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this."

 

John didn't witness Mary Giving Birth and Fleeing to Egypt.

 

 

(Revelation 12:17) "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

 

Israel's Seed....

 

(Micah 2:12) "I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men."

 

The Remnant flees to Bozrah, Modern Day Petra (Indiana Jones) and a Sheepfold, chased by the antichrist armies ...

 

  

Then.....

 

Jesus Kills all of them, Himself..... This is Frightening:

 

(Isaiah 63:1-6) "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.  {2} Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?  {3} I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.  {4} For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.  {5} And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.  {6} And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth."

 

(Revelation 14:20) "And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

 

Thank you for explaining how you see the relationship between Revelation 12 and Israel, but I do not agree.  John did not personally witness a lot of what he was being shown in Revelation, yet he is referring to them as he is shown.

The times of Petra, the future event, is said to take place during the second half of the tribulation. We read what Daniel says: “At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered… It shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished… And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be 1290 days. Blessed is he who waits and comes to the 1335 days” (Dan. 12:1,7,11,12).

The time of Petra is not the time spoken of in Revelation 12. The seed of the woman are those who follow Christ. Israel's seed included all who are born of the 12 tribes. When the tribulation comes, all of Israel will be attacked and when the son of perdition is disclosed, they will flee to the mountains.

Matthew 25:15-22

“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

It is obvious that the events in Revelation 12 are different than the events in Matthew and Daniel. Revelation 12 speaks only of those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ, which all of Israel do not.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings One Light,,,,,

     I see that I have the same understanding as your own,,,,,perhaps you can tell what you think of the Jews that flee to the mountains at that time when Israel is being attacked........will they then come to Christ and become His remnant ?

                                                                                                                                              With love in Christ,Kwik