THE RESTRAINER

[OneLight]

Blessings One Light,,,,,

     I see that I have the same understanding as your own,,,,,perhaps you can tell what you think of the Jews that flee to the mountains at that time when Israel is being attacked........will they then come to Christ and become His remnant ?

                                                                                                                                              With love in Christ,Kwik

One would hope so, and according to their history, I would tend to believe they will. With the 144,000 being sealed prior to this happening, I would also say it will more than likely the truth.

In His Love,

Alan

[kwikphilly]

Blessings One Light...

       I do believe it will be very evident for them when God provides all their needs during that time(much like after their exodus into the wilderness),& knowing our Great ,Awesome & Loving Father....they will see Christ in all of it as He will open their  eyes,,,,,,,,Oh,what a beautiful thought!

                                                                                                                                                                   With love-in Christ,Kwik

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

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John did not personally witness a lot of what he was being shown in Revelation, yet he is referring to them as he is shown.

 

 

(Revelation 1:19) Jesus said "Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this."

 

According to this verse alone, it Rules out Mary and the Fleeing into Egypt.  Because John would not "have seen".

 

Joseph's dream in (Genesis 37:9) is the exact description of Israel in Rev 12:1 as I have shown.

 

This is clearly a Reference to Israel as the Mother of the Man Child (Christ) who was to rule all the nations with a Rod of Iron.

 

The times of Petra, the future event, is said to take place during the second half of the tribulation.    The time of Petra is not the time spoken of in Revelation 12.

 

Yes it is, the 1260 days is mentioned here....

 

(Revelation 12:6) "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days."

 

Time Times, and a half a Time:

 

Dan 7:25

Dan 12:7

Rev 12:14

 

1260 Days:

 

Rev 11:3

Rev 12:6

Rev 12:14

 

42 Months:

 

Rev 11:2

Rev 13:5

 

All these are references to the Great Tribulation, 3 1/2 years.

 

 

 

(Revelation 12:15) "And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood."

 

(Revelation 12:16) "And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth."

 

(Revelation 12:17) "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

 

Can you show Scriptural Support with Mary fleeing to Egypt in reference to the above passages?

 

and when was Mary Persecuted?....

 

(Revelation 12:13) "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child."

 

 

The seed of the woman are those who follow Christ.

 

Are you saying the seed of MARY?

 

Everything from Chapter 4 on of Revelation is almost exclusively dealing with Israel.

 

Revelation 12 speaks only of those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ,  which all of Israel do not.

 

What about the 144,000 from the 12 Tribes? 

 

The Purpose of Tribulation is Drive Israel to the Wall, for this..... (Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

It is obvious that the events in Revelation 12 are different than the events in Matthew and Daniel,

 

The Matthew Passage is the Abomination of Desolation which starts the Great Tribulation.

 

The Daniel Passages (Dan 7:25 Dan 12:7) also speak of the Great Tribulation...

 

(Daniel 7:25) "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time." 

 

(Daniel 12:7) "And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished."

[ARGOSY]

This is confusing 

 

The "Restrainer", the Holy Spirit, restrains not only the appearance of the anti-Christ but also the intentions of Satan in order to protect the Church. At the Rapture (which I guess I don't know what I know) the Holy Spirit will no longer indwell everyone who is a member of the Church as a guatantee of our salvation because the Church will be gone, any new believer will not be a member of the Church (the Church will have been Raptured) but the Holy Spirit will return to His pre-Christ role of coming upon individual believers. Since the Temple will be rebuilt and sacrifice renewed, each person will be required to maintain their own salvation. Both throught faith in Christ and obedience to the Law. They will no longer have the protection that the Church has as a guarantee of our salvation. But the Holy Spirit will still be doing It's work. Otherwise, no one would be saved after the Rapture.

This is all unbiblical speculation. There is nothing in the bible that supports an earlier rapture, and nothing in the bible that hints that the Holy Spirit will be removed. You are using one unbiblical view to support another unbiblical view, and then using both views to support eachother. Yet in every case that a rapture is actually mentioned, the context has more support for a second coming event that a pre-tribulation event.

Is this another rapture post. Or is this about the antichrist.     The antichrist comes after rapture.  I never heard of satan holding back antichrist. 

I relate the church age removal of Satan in Rev 12 with the removal of the restrainer in 2 thess 2. I believe the restrainer is not restraining the antichrist, if you read the chapter carefully the restrainer is withholding the exposure/revealing of the antichrist. The emphasis in context is SECRET LAWLESSNESS , and then a sudden REVEALING. The restrainer isnt withholding evil as some might read the chapter, and would make him a good entity. The withholder is keeping secrets, its a negative evil thing.

And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed

his revealing is held back, its SECRET lawlessness that is being held back (from being exposed). When the withholder of the secret is removed, then the antichrist is revealed. The chapter is a contrast between a secret power, and a great revealing. The withholder is the one who holds back the revealing of the antichrist. Satan is keeping the identity secret.

[ARGOSY]

Is this another rapture post. Or is this about the antichrist.     The antichrist comes after rapture.  I never heard of satan holding back antichrist. 

ps according to 2 thess 2 the antichrist comes first....then our gathering

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed

[Enoch2021]

Blessings One Light,,,,,

     I see that I have the same understanding as your own,,,,,perhaps you can tell what you think of the Jews that flee to the mountains at that time when Israel is being attacked........will they then come to Christ and become His remnant ?

                                                                                                                                              With love in Christ,Kwik

 

 

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Hey Kwik 

 

I see that I have the same understanding as your own

 

So you're saying that the "woman" in Rev 12 is Mary?  If so,....

 

 

(Revelation 1:19) Jesus said "Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this."

 

According to this verse alone, it Rules out Mary and the Fleeing into Egypt.  Because John would not "have seen".

 

Joseph's dream in (Genesis 37:9) is the exact description of Israel in Rev 12:1 as I have shown....

 

(Genesis 37:9) "And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me."  (Joseph is the 12th Star)

 

(Revelation 12:1) "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:"

 

 

Also, if this "woman" is Mary then.....  Can you show Scriptural Support with Mary fleeing to Egypt in reference to the passages below?

 

(Revelation 12:15) "And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood."

 

(Revelation 12:16) "And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth."

 

(Revelation 12:17) "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

 

and when was Mary Persecuted?....

 

(Revelation 12:13) "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child."

 

Moreover, Why is Mary being discussed in Rev 12?

 

 

Most Importantly:  satan's last and only card to play is to prevent the Jews from Petitioning the LORD to Return (Which is the Sole Purpose of The Great Tribulation).....

 

(Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

The Holocaust in Germany killed 1 out of 3 Jews.  The Great Tribulation, 2 out of 3......

 

(Zechariah 13:8-9) "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.  {9} And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God."

 

If the "remnant of her (the woman) seed" are Non-Jew Christians, why is satan making War with Them (In Israel) when it is completely irrelevant to his mission/goal?

 

Who and where are these Non-Jew Christians?

 

 

what you think of the Jews that flee to the mountains at that time when Israel is being attacked.

 

These are the "Remnant" that satan is after...to kill them before they can Petition The LORD.  They're headed to Bozrah/Petra to the Sheepfold (See Pics above)....

 

(Micah 2:12) "I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men."

 

Then the antichrist armies will head that way and meet.....

 

(Isaiah 63:1-6) "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.  {2} Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?  {3} I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.  {4} For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.  {5} And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.  {6} And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth."

 

(Revelation 14:20) "And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

 

 

 

[Montana Marv]

Argosy

 

Where does Satan go when he is taken out of the way of restraining your lawless one?

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Enoch...

     I am not sure what point you are trying to make as John sees a vision of a woman who gave birth to a male child.satan,represented by a red dragon ,tries to kill the child.But the child is protected and deli0vered from harm by the Lord.The message of this chapter is that God will protect His church from satan's threats.......perhaps the difference in our point of view is that of one of historicity ,where one would preview the Christian era...trumpets,bowls of judgement as different periods in history,,,,,,,seeing revelation not as a chronological panorama of history,Seven separate parallel visions portray,from slightly different viewpoints,the age between Christs first & second comings ,Or even an idealist point f view where revelation has no relationship to history at all,but rather uses symbols familiar to 1st century readers to portray the timeless conflict between good & evil........versus the futurist who would see revelation 4-16 as a portrait of future events that will take place at historys end.The events described are the same found in the OT & Mt24 describes a great tribulation to take place prior to the establishment of Gods Kingdom........Whatever approach is taken ,revelation remains the powerful affirmation of the ultimate triumph of God!

     I see no discrepencies between your interpretation & mine as far as Gods remnant.....but then again I never look for any ,nit-picking is not something I care to do.....I consider several approaches to revelation and I would hope that even the contrary would all agree that the book of revelation would serve as a powerful confirmation that God is in complete charge of history,Although Gods sovereignty may be challenged,evil will be judged ,& all those who are saved will be rewarded at history's end...............Praise & Glory to God!

                                                                                                                                          With love-in Christ,Kwik

[Enoch2021]

Blessings Enoch...

     I am not sure what point you are trying to make as John sees a vision of a woman who gave birth to a male child.satan,represented by a red dragon ,tries to kill the child.But the child is protected and deli0vered from harm by the Lord.The message of this chapter is that God will protect His church from satan's threats.......perhaps the difference in our point of view is that of one of historicity ,where one would preview the Christian era...trumpets,bowls of judgement as different periods in history,,,,,,,seeing revelation not as a chronological panorama of history,Seven separate parallel visions portray,from slightly different viewpoints,the age between Christs first & second comings ,Or even an idealist point f view where revelation has no relationship to history at all,but rather uses symbols familiar to 1st century readers to portray the timeless conflict between good & evil........versus the futurist who would see revelation 4-16 as a portrait of future events that will take place at historys end.The events described are the same found in the OT & Mt24 describes a great tribulation to take place prior to the establishment of Gods Kingdom........Whatever approach is taken ,revelation remains the powerful affirmation of the ultimate triumph of God!

     I see no discrepencies between your interpretation & mine as far as Gods remnant.....but then again I never look for any ,nit-picking is not something I care to do.....I consider several approaches to revelation and I would hope that even the contrary would all agree that the book of revelation would serve as a powerful confirmation that God is in complete charge of history,Although Gods sovereignty may be challenged,evil will be judged ,& all those who are saved will be rewarded at history's end...............Praise & Glory to God!

                                                                                                                                          With love-in Christ,Kwik

 

 

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,nit-picking is not something I care to do

 

Nit Picking?  Is that what I'm doing?

 

(2 Timothy 2:15) "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

 

Trying to avoid this....

 

(Hosea 4:6) "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children."

 

 

The message of this chapter is that God will protect His church from satan's threats.

 

The Message of Rev 12 is GOD protecting his Church?  Isn't the "Church" Raptured well before Rev 12?

 

 

perhaps the difference in our point of view is that of one of historicity

 

Revelation is the "Unveiling" .....Future events....Prophecy.  How or why would you "Unveil" History? ...isn't it already inherently "Unveiled" because it's "History"?

 

 

Please don't take this personal....just trying to ascertain ABSOLUTE TRUTH (had enough of the Lies), from the only place that it exists; From HIS WORD.  For as...

 

(Proverbs 27:17) "Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend."

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Enoch....

     No,dear Brother ...that is not what I am saying you do....that is what I said I will not (or do not)do,how much better could I have worded what I said?Have I ever been known to insinuate anything,that would be rather passive aggressive,would it not?I would hope by now you would know I am very direct & unpretentious.......So,please....don't assume my words mean anything more that what they are.

    And if one takes a pre-tribulation perspective ,yes..... I do not believe that is the topic of this thread....there are plenty of "rapture" threads you can debate that position....God Bless you in finding your ABSOLUTE TRUTH............that will come from the Holy Spirit of course

                                                                                                                            With love-in Christ,Kwik