A different end times scenario to discuss

[Spock]

Enoch2120,

 

My premise is this: In the church you have many classes of people:

1. Some hot for God,

2. some mild for God,

3. some lukewarm for God,

4. some cold for God, and

5. some complete hypocrites, who really arent family.

 

I assume groups 1-4 are believers, having all made a confession of faith in Christ, and have born some fruit.

Group 5 hasn't.

 

I  assume Christ in his letters to the 7 churches in revelation was talking to mostly believers (groups 1-4), and not just unbelieving hypocrites (group 5).

 

If I am going to err, I choose to err on this side, thus I give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Likewise, I assume the 5 foolish virgins are believers who were just not ready and watching.

 

If Christ himself is telling these churches that he will spit them out of his mouth (into tribulation), then I assume the trib is for them if they don't repent.

 

Thus, like Jesus in his 7 letters, I do not believe the ENTIRE church is worthy to be kept from the hour of testing and to enter the wedding supper because they are still in need of some refining (groups 2-4). This may not be a bad thing because their faithfulness and humility here will serve them well in the long run. Rev 20 has some neat words for overcomers in the trib.  Obviously the unbelieving hypocrit won't be raptured, but neither will the lukewarm believer. (At least at the secret thief in the night rapture. All believers get raptured.)

 

As previously stated by me, I believe this to be a BIG LIE, to say that every believer will be raptured (groups 1-4), even the lukewarm, lazy, unloving person who doesn't even care about any 2nd coming (groups 2-4).

[Enoch2021]

Enoch2120,

 

My premise is this: In the church you have many classes of people:

1. Some hot for God,

2. some mild for God,

3. some lukewarm for God,

4. some cold for God, and

5. some complete hypocrites, who really arent family.

 

I assume groups 1-4 are believers, having all made a confession of faith in Christ, and have born some fruit.

Group 5 hasn't.

 

I  assume Christ in his letters to the 7 churches in revelation was talking to mostly believers (groups 1-4), and not just unbelieving hypocrites (group 5).

 

If I am going to err, I choose to err on this side, thus I give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Likewise, I assume the 5 foolish virgins are believers who were just not ready and watching.

 

If Christ himself is telling these churches that he will spit them out of his mouth (into tribulation), then I assume the trib is for them if they don't repent.

 

Thus, like Jesus in his 7 letters, I do not believe the ENTIRE church is worthy to be kept from the hour of testing and to enter the wedding supper because they are still in need of some refining (groups 2-4). This may not be a bad thing because their faithfulness and humility here will serve them well in the long run. Rev 20 has some neat words for overcomers in the trib.  Obviously the unbelieving hypocrit won't be raptured, but neither will the lukewarm believer. (At least at the secret thief in the night rapture. All believers get raptured.)

 

As previously stated by me, I believe this to be a BIG LIE, to say that every believer will be raptured (groups 1-4), even the lukewarm, lazy, unloving person who doesn't even care about any 2nd coming (groups 2-4).

 

 

==============================================================================

 

 

My premise is this: In the church you have many classes of people:

1. Some hot for God,

2. some mild for God,

3. some lukewarm for God,

4. some cold for God, and

5. some complete hypocrites, who really arent family.

 

 

Your Premise is fallacious.

 

You're either saved or "Born Again" or not.   "mild/lukewarm/cold" are misnomers.  You can't be "a little" Pregnant

 

 

I  assume Christ in his letters to the 7 churches in revelation was talking to mostly believers (groups 1-4), and not just unbelieving hypocrites (group 5).

 

Why did he choose these 7 in asia minor....there were Hundreds of Churches??

 

He was speaking to "them":

 

Locally, Prophetically (Church History), and to everyone that reads the Book/Letters.....

 

(Revelation 1:3) "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."

 

 

I assume the 5 foolish virgins are believers who were just not ready and watching.

 

Parables are irrelevant to this Specific Subject.

 

And you have not answered the questions concerning "Parables" I have asked you numerous times or The Mystery of the Church being revealed.

 

 

If Christ himself is telling these churches that he will spit them out of his mouth (into tribulation), then I assume the trib is for them if they don't repent.

 

You're mixing Churches here;

 

This is Laodicea.....(Revelation 3:16) " So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."

 

This is Thyatira.... (Revelation 2:22) " Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds."

 

From the substance of the Letter to Laodicea they are Apostate and Christ is nowhere to be found inside.  How do we know?  Well.....

 

(Revelation 3:20) " Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

 

Christ is standing OUTSIDE the CHURCH DOORS and KNOCKING!!

 

Thyatira is........Tell me Spock who and what is the Church @ Thyatira.  Hint: the previous name of that City was Semiramus.

 

Thus, like Jesus in his 7 letters, I do not believe the ENTIRE church is worthy to be kept from the hour of testing and to enter the wedding supper because they are still in need of some refining (groups 2-4).

 

You're missing the Prophetic Nature (Church History) here.  Of the 4 that are here during the End Times, Philadelphia is the "Born gain" Christian Church.....The True Church.  However, some of the members via numerous variables and circumstances attend the other Churches..... but those Churches Corporately are "CORRUPT"!!  He gives those "members" which are "Born Again" hope and are classified as OVERCOMERS.

 

 

Obviously the unbelieving hypocrit won't be raptured, but neither will the lukewarm believer. (At least at the secret thief in the night rapture. All believers get raptured.)

 

The secret thief in the night Rapture??     That's not the Rapture Spock, it's a simile (Figure of Speech/ Rhetorical Device) speaking to the Second Coming.

 

 

As previously stated by me, I believe this to be a BIG LIE, to say that every believer will be raptured

 

(1 Thessalonians 4:17) "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

 

Spock, I caution you here, Brother.  Be very careful here with the BIG LIE.  Paul says WE not "some".

[goldust59]

Hi Spock,  Just wanted to throw a thought out to consider.

 

I believe that there is going to be a group of saints that are going to receive a FULL indwelling of the Holy Spirit (a "rapture", sort of) & be empowered to do the works Jesus did when He walked the earth. I think they are the "firstfruits" group. I think those that are actively seeking after the Lord with their whole being & laying down their self life & having a continual intimate relationship with Him will be in this group. I think this might be the "high calling" that Paul was pressing toward.

 

I do not believe everyone professing to be a Christian will be in the "firstfruits" group of saints.  God sees the heart of people and nothing is hidden from Him & the deciding factor will be the condition of the heart.

 

My 2 cents for now.  Many blessings,, Deb

[MorningGlory]

 

Take your blinders off and read what the Bible says, not what you have been told is says by Margret M. in the 1800's

I sense so many people, like yourself, upset and even somewhat angry at pre tribbers for this belief that the church will be lifted out of here before Daniel's 70th week commences. In fact,

Why be bent of shape over this?

If they are wrong, They will know they are wrong if they see some kind of peace deal made in the Middle East, and they definitely will know they are wrong if they see the abomination of desolation.

So why be angry at them? They will have enough to sort out when they realize their beliefs were amiss. That should be punishment enough for some, don't you think?

Oh, and if by chance They are right, don't forget to acknowledge this when you see them in the new Jerusalem.

 

 

Great advice, Spock.  We have to be careful that we are not so busy trying to be 'right' that we miss the train!  Only God knows for sure.

[Spock]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and kind words golddust and Morning Glory.

 

Love going out to both of you,

Spock out

[MorningGlory]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and kind words golddust and Morning Glory.

 

Love going out to both of you,

Spock out

 

[Spock]

Hey atwood,

You earlier asked me if there was any scripture associated with the harvests=rapture and I said not to my knowledge. Well, I just found this. It's not exactly scripture, but it may allow you to make inferences. If you read it, tell me what you think. Thanks.

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/oct2012/loras108.htm

http://loafofbarley.webs.com/areyouthebride.htm#521008695

Look for this - UNDERSTANDING WHO THE IS BARLEY BRIDE WHO ARE THE WHEAT? WHO ARE THE GRAPES?

BARLEY IS THE BRIDE

UNDERSTANDING THE BARLEY WHEAT AND GRAPE HARVEST

[ARGOSY]

 

 

 

I'm not upset with them Spock, my whole family is in that camp also. I just see the possible hurt and disappointment ahead for them and am trying to warn them, and plead with them not to try and recruit others into their camp without knowing for sure that they are correct in their doctrine.

 

 

You're trying to warn them based on......??    Is it your "Resurrections" diatribe?

 

How do you know you're correct in "you're" doctrine..... to then warn others?  Resurrections?

 

 

Enoch, I don't regard it as appropriate that you refer to another's argument about the resurrection as a diatribe.  Are you aware what it means?  It means " a forceful and bitter verbal attack against someone or something."

 

 

 

It wasn't about "The Resurrection" it was concerning his entire position of "resurrections".  That being said, I could have used a better term in my characterization.

 

my mistake

 

 

Thanks for that. It probably wasn't my place to comment on this, but I appreciate your humility.

[Enoch2021]

Enoch 2021 you can't be serious in saying that Luke 21:9-12 and Matt 24:6-9 aren't describing the same events.

 

Lord help you I'm done, it's a waste of time. The old saying comes to mind, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

 

 

Well, Matthews account is the Olivet Discourse that took place on the Mount of Olives @ Night between Christ, Peter, James, John, and Andrew.

 

Luke's Account was during the day in the Temple with all the Apostles and Followers......

 

(Luke 21:1-6) "And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.  {2} And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.  {3} And he said,  Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:  {4}  For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.  {5} And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,  {6}  As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

 

and Scripture even tells you here...

 

(Luke 21:36-37) " Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.  {37} And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives."

 

 

Lets take a look specifically @ the 2 Accounts with Attention to Detail (I'll highlight the difference):

 

(Luke 21:9-12) " But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.  {10} Then said he unto them,  Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:  {11}  And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.  {12}  But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake."

 

(Matthew 24:6-9) " And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.  {7}  For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.  {8}  All these are the beginning of sorrows.  {9}  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."

 

 

Yes, they both speak of the same signs......but look closely:  Luke is describing events that take place "Before" all these Signs.   Matthew says "Then" shall they.....Events "After these signs".

 

Luke is Gentile, speaking to Gentiles and the Fall of Jerusalem.  Matthew is a Jew and speaking to a Jewish audience pointing to End Times.

 

 

The Capper:  The Pivotal Landmark in The Olivet Discourse is the "Abomination of Desolation", Correct?  Please show the "Abomination of Desolation" in Luke?

 

 

You may want to reconstruct that horse: leading/water/drinking analogy.

[Hindsfeet]

Interesting, I never saw that.