Post Tribbers - Please explain

[Montana Marv]

C

 

The Second Coming happens after the 70th Week.  YET, No One Knows when the Bridegroom will come for the Bride except for God the Father.  That is Scripture.  Scripture does not back up a Post-Trib Rapture.  Once the Battle of Armageddon is finished I could predict within 35 days of this propose Rapture event which is really the Second Coming.  Yet Scripture says no one knows.   The Raptures timing is not in the Bible.  You can give me all your Post-Trib Scriptures you want, I will not believe in any of them.  Why, The timing is not in Scripture, It is immanent.  You cannot figure it out.  That is why I am Pre-Trib, I have no idea when the 70 Week of Daniel will begin.  No way to predict it.  But once the 70th week begins your 7th year Rapture is very predictable.  So do I believe you and all your Scripture.  Or do I believe that God the Father is the only one who knows when the Bridegroom will come.  Not the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords (we know when this will happen), but the Bridegroom coming for His Bride.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Matt36]

 

As per Rev 14:6,7 - Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth; to every nation, tribe, language and people.  He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come.  Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water."

 

v 9 - A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice; "If anyone worships the beast, and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he too will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath", v 12 - This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

 

And then Rev 9:20 - The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands, they did not stop worshiping demons and idols..........

 

So where do you Post Tribbers fit in to all this.  For this is all happening near the onset of the 70th Week, except for Rev 9:20. The Church spreading the gospel is now dispelled by an angel spreading the gospel.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Hi post tribber here and I would like to do some explaining as the title suggests, but first I want to brush on another post saying something about post tribbers attacking pretribbers. My goal here is not to attack but rather speak on the truth found in Gods word.

First off the above scripture quoted does not give any refrence to chronilogical order and thus does not dispell any thing to do with the post trib theory. This is a common practice of pre tribbers, they find a scripture and then go to thier mind and figure it out saying ah ha this is what I want it to mean because it fits with what I haveheard. They do this rather than examine all scriptures together, which would be rightly dividing the word of truth or studying to shew thyself aproved. In three of the four gospels it gives clear chronilogical order first beginning of sorrows then great trib and then the second coming. When you consider that the info is the same order in all three gospels which is matt mark and luke it would seem obvious. What I recommend is to not try to read the bible and pick out what you want it to say but rather read the bible for what the bible says. Around a decade ago I was a pretribber. The pre trib teaching was all I ever heard or knew. One day in church I prayed and asked God to show me truth because if He didnt I may never know it. After that while hearing many topics being preached I sometimes would get an uneasy feeling in my spirit like it was in knots, I would open my bible to find the answer and God would show me scriptures that directly contridicted what I was hearing. Pre trib rapture was one of these topics. And ever since then God has shown me a little here and there. When He originaly showed me I was very confused because at that time I didnt know that a mid and post trib teaching even exsisted. He got me lined out withthe truth in His word. There is not one single scripture that gives chronilogical order that states we will be raptured prior to the great tribulation. All thru the book of revelations there is obvious evidence that not only isrealites but also christians will be alive in the flesh during the great tribulation

.

the fact that an angel said what he did in the scripture above does not dispell anything about christians not preaching. I will leave a list of scriptures for you and any pre tribbers to study and then you can see for yourself what the bible says.

read matt 24 verse 4and on also read mark 13 and luke 21 verse 8. In all three of these refrences it says the exact same order of events. This also lines up with what it says in revelations about the trumpets sounding and while we are on that subject check out 1st corinthians 15:52 where it tells you that we will be raptured at the LAST trump. Amos 5:18 and joel 2:31/acts 2:16-21. 2 thess 2:1-12 is also a good read. I would also recomend you study the greek works parousia which means coming or arrival. The word is used 13 times in connection the the second coming of Christ. Other words to find and study in scripture are phanerosis, epiphaneia, apokalypsis, and hemera. These are all greek words found thru out the NT. Col 3:4, titus 2:13 luke 2:31 1 peter 1:7,13 and 4:13, 2 thess 1:7, 1 corinthians 1:8 15:4, 2 peter 3:11-13, and I think also rev 21:5. In the old testament pay close attention to the day of our Lord or just simply the day.

If you study all of this in depth including the whole book of revelations it will become extremely obvious what the bible has to say about the tribulation happening before the day of Christs return.

also the book of daniel will give evidence also twards the end.

 

+1 on your post Cletus. Your experience is also my experience. God actually showed me while reading the actual bible that the rapture is not pretribulational. I also was not aware of the pre wrath position though i was aware of other positions. I also prayed for quite a while asking him to show me if i should go back to being pre trib or is there another view. After that God showed me the pre wrath view. I admit i was sceptical about it at first but as i understood it more, the bible just jumped right out at me. the bible actually makes sense now on the rapture. When you look back now on the pre trib doctrine you can now see what a holey (as in full of holes) doctrine it is, its even rediculous, sorry if i offend anyone there but thats how i see it now.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Matt36

[Montana Marv]

Matt

 

Who else knows besides God the Father about when the Bridegroom will come for His Bride (The Rapture).  I would like to know...  Jesus Christ, the Bridegroom does not know; and Jesus Christ is the Word (He is The Bible, He is The Scriptures, He is the Truth).  So if the Scriptures do not reveal the time for the Rapture, Why do continue to look there. You can ask God the Father, but He will not reveal it to you.  It is of God the Father's timing and no one else.

 

If you are not ready now; will you be ready say 3 1/2 to 7 years from now.  I am ready now, I am waiting now, not tomorrow.  I do my tasks today, for I do not know what tomorrow will bring.  Live one day at a time, as it may be your last day, not 7 years from now.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[other one]

Matt

 

Who else knows besides God the Father about when the Bridegroom will come for His Bride (The Rapture).  I would like to know...  Jesus Christ, the Bridegroom does not know; and Jesus Christ is the Word (He is The Bible, He is The Scriptures, He is the Truth).  So if the Scriptures do not reveal the time for the Rapture, Why do continue to look there. You can ask God the Father, but He will not reveal it to you.  It is of God the Father's timing and no one else.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

but he did give us some hints on the long term seasons so to speak.....    but who knows if they will live till tomorrow.......   so what difference does it really make.    That concrete truck one accidentally pulls out in front of may well be any of our raptures...   Old Putin may well decide that he can win a nuclear war and poof there goes the USA.....

There are so many different things that are so possible that they are in some instances probable.   I read while ago that Ebola has surfaced in Europe......    if that's true the world is in serious serious trouble. 

 

But I don't see anything wrong with discussing it as long as people don't take it too seriously...

[Matt36]

Matt

 

Who else knows besides God the Father about when the Bridegroom will come for His Bride (The Rapture).  I would like to know...  Jesus Christ, the Bridegroom does not know; and Jesus Christ is the Word (He is The Bible, He is The Scriptures, He is the Truth).  So if the Scriptures do not reveal the time for the Rapture, Why do continue to look there. You can ask God the Father, but He will not reveal it to you.  It is of God the Father's timing and no one else.

 

If you are not ready now; will you be ready say 3 1/2 to 7 years from now.  I am ready now, I am waiting now, not tomorrow.  I do my tasks today, for I do not know what tomorrow will bring.  Live one day at a time, as it may be your last day, not 7 years from now.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Hi Montana, thanks for your question.

 

^Matt24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

 

So you are correct Montana according to the scriptures. Jesus did not know the timing of the rapture while on Earth. But when John wrote the Revelation of Jesus Christ he would have know, being part of the Godhead for he reveals it in chapter 7.

 

But you are not completely correct Montana, Jesus DID know while on Earth the times and the seasons. For example, he said just a few verses before in Matt24: 32,

³² Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

³³ So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

³⁴ Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 

The fig tree is Israel and the branch putting forth leaves is their return to the land. So when you see these things know that the generation alive at that time will be the same generation to see the Son of Man coming. So he actually gives a time window in which it can ONLY happen inside of. Not before, nor after, but only while that generation lives. They are now 66 years old.

 

The pre wrath view does not tell you the time the raspture will take place but it does tell you what events must preceed it and what events must come after it. There is another time window inside the 70th week that shows that the rapture can ONLY happen inside of. That length of time of that window is not given however, except to say it must happen after the antic christ is revealed.. It must finish before the Day of the Lord starts and thus could have a time window of a few hours to a couple of years. Even living right there as the events take place you cannot know the DAY or the HOUR. But you will know its very close.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Matt36

[Matt36]

 

Hi Enoch, hows things buddy?

 

Ive not had tome to go through the latest posts today and its almost bed time. I do that tommorrow.

 

But id like you to do just one thing for me.

 

Could you please cite the verse or verses you use to show that the bible says the rapture will be pre tribulational. Please note, and im not trying to be a wise guy, id really just like the scriptures and not an opinion from you or another to prove it, just the scripture ONLY.

 

Thanks mate, look forward to your reply.

 

My words in blue.

===========================================================================================

 

No Problem....and to be precise, my view is Pre-70th Week of Daniel.

 

First the scope or overview:

 

What is the Purpose of Great Tribulation?  ....(Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."  "early" is better translated "Earnestly".

 

The main goal is to have the believing Jewish Remnant Petition the LORD to Return.  satan's goal is to prevent that.  Think about it, all this should have been over @ the Cross....satan lost (Big Time )  But it's not over.  The only card satan has left to play...... is to prevent The LORD from returning.  How does he do that....Kill The Believing Jewish Remnant.  He's in for a Shocker @ Bozrah------Petra today.

 

See that "TILL" in Hosea?? ...it's a Biggie!! GOD will never go against or contrary to HIS WORD.  I LOVE HIM for that!!!!  Praise The LORD!!!!!!!!

 

You have to be able to distinguish between "Israel" and "The Church" in Scripture.  Both have different Origins, Paths, and Destinies.  If you don't distinguish between the two, your Eschatology will be a TrainWreck, IMHO.....

 

(Romans 11:25) "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

 

That "until"....is a Biggie!!  A fruitful study is to punch in "Until" or "Till" into a Concordance and track what these passages say.  They're quite illuminating. I agree so far Enoch, funny though, Revelation shows exactly when the Mystery ends.

 

 

I suppose it boils down to (and for Brevity) 4 sections in Scripture:  2 Thess 2:7-8, Daniel 9:27, 1 Thess 5:9, The Doctrine of Imminence and The 24 Elders:

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.  {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

The "he" is the Holy Spirit....and "HE'S" not going anywhere without "THE CHURCH".  "He's" the Embodiment of it!  Well you know i beleive that is Michael. Ive shown you scripture to why i think that. Dan 12:1. Do you have any scripture to show that this is the Holy Spirit? Because i dont know of any and i see it as a church guess that its the Holy Spirit.

In Combination with....

Daniel's "little horn" The Beast/ That Wicked from above (Mister Big Mouth)......

(Daniel 9:27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

To "Confirm The Covenant" the beast/That Wicked has to be known Publicly ("Revealed").  Where's the Holy Spirit that INDWELLS "THE CHURCH" when that happens......TAKEN, out of the Way.

 

 

(1 Thessalonians 5:9) "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

 

GOD'S Wrath clearly begins with the Opening of The Seals in Rev 6.  @ the Very Latest....the 6th Seal:  (Revelation 6:16) "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

 

 

The Doctrine of Imminence:  No Preceding event to The Rapture (That is, nothing that you could discern via "Timed" events that could clue you when Christ will Return.

 

That most documented Specific "timed" event leading to the Second Coming in Scripture is: Time, Times, and a Dividing of Time: Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7, Rev 12:14; 1260 Days: Rev 11:3, Rev 12:6, Rev 12:14; 42 Months: Rev 11:2, Rev 13:5.

 

These all speak to the time from the Abomination of Desolation "Until" Christ's Return.  Here's the problem....anyone even with a cursory knowledge of Scripture (Especially Dan and Rev) could pretty much Mark their Calendars and Set Their Watches from the Abomination of Desolation in Anticipation of Christ.  Which then would nullify this Passage (and dozens more).....

 

(Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."  All who've read and understood Daniel and Revelation WOULD KNOW.

 

For me personally, it's when "That Wicked" Confirms the Covenant.  It won't be a "secret" Covenant and it will be One of the Main Reasons people follow him.

 

You could start the Calendar and Watches countdown @ the "Confirming of the Covenant."........Daniel's 70th Week. I vehemently disagree with the doctrine of imminence and ill explain why i beleive that another day.

 

 

 

The Identity of the 24 Elders:

 

The 24 Elders are Representatives of The Church.  And if that's the Case (and it is as I will show below ), then The Rapture is well before The Great Tribulation because they are in Heaven when John Arrives in Chapter 4.

Lets Identify these 24 Elders, First:

-  Identified as the Redeemed (Rev 5: 9,10) This is incorrect Enoch. When studying the bible you must always check the original texts which are inspired of God and thus correct. English translations are full of translation errors. Here is the original text and nowhere does its say the Elders were redeemed but rather "men" were redeemed, ⁹ And kai they sang adō a new kainos song ōdē, saying legō, “ Worthy axios are you eimi to take lambanō the ho scroll biblion and kai to open anoigō · ho its autos seals sphragis, for hoti you were slain sphazō, and kai by en your sy blood haima you ransomed agorazō people for ho God theos · ho from ek every pas tribe phylē, · kai language glōssa, · kai people laos, and kai nation ethnos. ¹⁰ And kai you have made poieō them autos a kingdom basileia and kai priests hiereus to ho our hēmeis God theos, and kai they will reign basileuō on epi the ho earth gē.

-  only three are Identified in all of Scripture as Kings and Priests (Melchizedek, Jesus, and the Redeemed......US )

- They worship the Lamb before he receives the Scroll; in fact, they are already in Heaven when John arrives. ¹⁰ And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. It doest actually say these are in Heaven, it just says he has made kings and preists to reign on Earth just as it says that many had been redeemed.

- Tribulation begins when the Scroll is Unsealed Yes it does begin here but to be specific it begins at the signing of the covenant between Israel and many which i believe is a little beforehand.

Bear in mind, The Royal Line (Judah) and The Priesthood (Levites) were to be kept separate as noted throughout the OT.  The Church appears to have no such restriction....

A Closer Look:

Peter says: (1 Peter 2:9) "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"

Royal Priesthood: Kings and Priests

John in Revelation says:  (Revelation 1:5-6) "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,  {6} And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

John is including himself in this group of Kings and Priests with "us".

Who else is John including in the "us"?? The ones that are washed from our sins in HIS Blood....."The Church" (Born Again Christians).

No arguement here Enoch

Hmmm, any more clues?

(Revelation 5:8-10) "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.  {9} And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;  {10} And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

The 24 Elders Sang a New Song:  Song of The Redeemed.

Hast Redeemed "us"....How?  By The Blood.  From where?  Out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation =  "The Church"

Has made "us" what?:  Kings and Priests.

 

 

Who the 24 Elders Can't Be, (Characteristics):

Tribulation Saints:                                                                   24 Elders:

* Not Crowned                                                                          *Crowned, casts them on the Glassy Sea (Rev 4:10)

* Palms in Hands                                                                       *Harps, No Palms

*Saved "out of" Great Tribulation                                               * Kept "out of" Great Tribulation (Rev 3:10)

* Stand Before Thrones                                                             * Sit on Thrones (Rev 4:4)

* Serve HIM Night and Day                                                        * Reign as Kings and Priests (1 Cor 6:2-3, Rev 5:10)

Tribulation Saints were not recognized by John and he asked who they were (Rev 7:14).  Who answered?  One of the Elders.

John never asks who the 24 Elders are.....  Why should he, he knows who they are 

Can't be The Martyrs because they are "under" The Alter and were slain.  24 Elders Sit on Thrones, not "slain".

Can't be Angels....

(Revelation 7:11) "And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,"

All the Angels stood round about the Throne...and who else?  The 24 Elders.  Clear Distinction.

We are running out of contenders @ Light Speed.

Can't be the 144,000, Obviously.

 

 

Many more nuances with "Types", The Seven Churches/Lampstands et al but these are the Primary Proof Texts.

 

Hope it helps

 

I inserted my words in blue above.

 

Well Enoch i guess what i meant was a scripture which makes it very clear. I dont really think that anything you have quoted above is scripture pointing to the view that the rapture is pre tribulational.

 

However i have here a scripture which is as clear as day that the rapture takes place during the tribulation and there are many, but ill quote just this one,

 

Rev 7

⁹ After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

.......

¹³ And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

¹⁴ And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

Now that is pretty open and shut i think Enoch. This is what i was asking you for, something solid. But what you showed me was based on flawed english translations and was very dependant upon interpration.

 

This event happens in rev 7 right in between seal 6 and seal 7 with 7 being the beginning of the Day of the Lord and all seals before this being satans wrath or events that are of God but are not judgements upon the populace but are rather signs. Note that the arrival of the tribulation saints are sudden, hence why the elder says "where did they come from?"

 

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to reply Enoch and i guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

Edit: i almost forgot.

 

You cited this verse, ^Rom11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

So when does the fullness of the gentiles come in and the mystery end?

 

^Rev10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

So we see that the church or the times of the gentiles continues to the seventh trumpet. Now it is time for Israel to be restored which is exactly what we see in the very next chapter, chapter 11. These gentiles are present after the rapture. We know many gentile nations will continue into the millenial kindom and these are they.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Matt36

[Matt36]

Hi Guys,

Ive noticed in some of the past posts that there was some discussion about the book of Matthew and whether it pertained to the Jews or not.

 

Let me explain why i think it is NOT written to the Jews.

 

Matthew wrote his gospel to the Church!! to those who already follow Christ.

It is a teaching gospel.

 

Matthew is the ONLY GOSPEL that refers to the church.

 

^Matt16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matt18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

 

Even the great commission given to the church is only mentioned in Matthew

 

^{Matt28: 18} And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

¹⁹ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

²⁰ Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

Jesus speaks of the end of the Church age

 

^Matt28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

And there are many other examples.

 

The reason many try to say Matthew was written to the jews was because of Matt 24 where Jesus speaks of a post tribulation rapture preceding the Day of the Lord. But Luke 21 does the exact same thing. Both talk about the end of the church age as well. Luke was not written to the jews alone.

 

If you think about it, to have a gospel book that is written to the jews and therefore irrelevant to the church is a little difficult to believe isnt it. I believe the book of matthew while written to the church is for both jew and gentile with a gentile perspective.

[Spock]

Matt,

Good stuff. I like how you pressed hard for specific scripture that shows the rapture, and not just fancy doctrines and passages that allude to the rapture.

I completely agree with you -Revelation 7 is the death blow to the pre tribbers in my mind (obviously not to them). I know they see that multitude as trib saints, saints saved after the church is removed, but if I can be frank here without stepping on toes, I find that interpretation to be comical. Say what? I believe they contrived that to keep their hope alive for an early departure. Well, they still may get their wish if I am right about a secret rapture, but the general harvest/rapture sure looks to me to be right there in Rev 7.

However, keep your mind open to a "thief in the night" rapture for the FAITHFUL CHURCH ONLY which is a pre trib rapture. Don't forget to visit my thread in which I made a case for such. I'm not saying I'm right, and chances are, since few people believe it, I'm probably wrong, but as the saying goes........you never know.

Spock out mate

[Matt36]

Matt,

Good stuff. I like how you pressed hard for specific scripture that shows the rapture, and not just fancy doctrines and passages that allude to the rapture.

I completely agree with you -Revelation 7 is the death blow to the pre tribbers in my mind (obviously not to them). I know they see that multitude as trib saints, saints saved after the church is removed, but if I can be frank here without stepping on toes, I find that interpretation to be comical. Say what? I believe they contrived that to keep their hope alive for an early departure. Well, they still may get their wish if I am right about a secret rapture, but the general harvest/rapture sure looks to me to be right there in Rev 7.

However, keep your mind open to a "thief in the night" rapture for the FAITHFUL CHURCH ONLY which is a pre trib rapture. Don't forget to visit my thread in which I made a case for such. I'm not saying I'm right, and chances are, since few people believe it, I'm probably wrong, but as the saying goes........you never know.

Spock out mate

Thanks Spocky,

I agree with your assertion. Ill take a look at your twin rapture theory.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

=============================================================================================

 

Well you know i beleive that is Michael. Ive shown you scripture to why i think that. Dan 12:1. Do you have any scripture to show that this is the Holy Spirit? Because i dont know of any and i see it as a church guess that its the Holy Spirit.

 

Key Phrase "I believe".  You have shown nothing concerning Michael and The Church.  All you have shown is Michael in reference to Daniels People-----Israel.  As I have mentioned on this thread @ least 5 times.

 

Only "GOD" (The Holy Spirit) "restrains" satan.  Scripture Support......see Book of JOB.

 

 

I vehemently disagree with the doctrine of imminence and ill explain why i beleive that another day.

 

You not only disagree, you "vehemently" disagree, eh?

 

Well you'll have to deny or somehow obfuscate these (for starters).....

 

(Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

(Mark 13:32) " But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

(Luke 12:40) " Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

(2 Peter 3:10) "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

 

 

This is incorrect Enoch. When studying the bible you must always check the original texts which are inspired of God and thus correct. English translations are full of translation errors.

 

Do you have personal copies of the Original Text?  Are you saying My AKJV of the Bible is not inspired?  Are you saying that the Creator of The Universe, the ONE that Holds every Electron in each atoms respective orbit in that Entire Universe, is incapable of Providing HIS Absolute TRUTH in my Spoken Language? Then.... when I'm kneeling before HIM, HE will Judge Me Righteously on my adherence to HIS WORD......which according to you, is fallacious "Full of Errors" as you say??  I don't think you thought this through.

 

Are you saying that Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic Experts are the only People that are able to acquire Absolute Truth?

 

Please provide The Bible "Translation" you read sir?

 

Here is the original text and nowhere does its say the Elders were redeemed but rather "men" were redeemed,

 

It says it right here....

 

(Revelation 5:8-10) "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.  {9} And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;  {10} And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

 

Allow me to remind you concerning adding or taking away from The WORD of GOD......

 

(Revelation 22:18-19) "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:  {19} And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

 

If it were me.....before I would attempt to even consider adding a comma or period to this text, I would need to study "The Original Text" 15 hours a day for the next 50 years then have 200 Greek Experts all in One Accord agree with me.  Then I would have to do an exhaustive Background Check on Each of those Scholars starting with their Great Grandparents. 

Just my take.

 

Tribulation begins when the Scroll is Unsealed--------- Yes it does begin here but to be specific it begins at the signing of the covenant between Israel and many which i believe is a little beforehand.

 

So you're saying the Tribulation begins @ the Confirming of The Covenant? 

 

But Christ said....

 

(Matthew 24:15-21) " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,  (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  {16}  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  {17}  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:  {18}  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.  {19}  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!  {20}  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:  {21}  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

 

See that "For then shall be" right next to "great tribulation"??

 

What did Daniel Say?.......

 

(Daniel 9:27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

 

The "Tribulation" is a Misnomer, there is only "Great Tribulation" spoken of by Jesus Himself. And when does this Happen?  In "The Midst" of that 7 Year Period. 

 

These are commentaries and speculators adding their spin to the text...as in 7 years of "Tribulation".  Adding "Tribulation" arbitrarily to the first 3 1/2 years/prior to the Abomination of Desolation.  Please show ONE Scripture saying that the first 3 1/2 years is just plain "Tribulation"?

 

So your Conjecture that "Tribulation" begins with the "signing of the Covenant" is in Direct Conflict and obfuscates what Jesus Himself said and Daniel 9:27.

 

Care to reconsider?

 

ps. Who said the ac "Signs" anything??

 

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. It doest actually say these are in Heaven

 

See Warning of changing GOD'S WORD above.

 

 

However i have here a scripture which is as clear as day that the rapture takes place during the tribulation and there are many, but ill quote just this one,

Rev 7

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

 

You've got absolutely ZERO Scripture for a Rapture Post Abomination of Desolation.  All you have is an Exegetical Trainwreck with convolutions concerning the different people groups and attributes (Including but not limited to "The Church" and Israel)

 

Those are Tribulation Saints, the ones John Didn't recognize, that came out of GOD's WRATH.

 

I have a question......What would be the Purpose of GOD pouring HIS Wrath out on Born Again Christians ("The Church")??  Get them to Repent or Believe more?

 

What is the Purpose of the Great Tribulation?

 

 

Now that is pretty open and shut i think Enoch. This is what i was asking you for, something solid. But what you showed me was based on flawed english translations and was very dependant upon interpration.

 

This event happens in rev 7 right in between seal 6 and seal 7 with 7 being the beginning of the Day of the Lord

 

"open and shut" and "solid" eh? Love the Adjectives....fortunately, they're not Proof just linguistics. It's what the call in the Industry as background noise....unfortunately, the things that most people focus on.

 

Can you show me in the "Original Texts",  where it says "Harpazo" in Rev 7?? Or show the LORD "Coming in the Clouds" and the "Trump of GOD" in Rev 7?

 

Define Specifically---"the day of the LORD"  Start and End point, thanks.

 

You cited this verse, Rom11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

So when does the fullness of the gentiles come in and the mystery end?

 

Only GOD knows that number. 

 

Moreover, Even though the number of the Gentiles is a "Mystery" (More like unknown or unknowable) in our vernacular from our perspective.  "Mystery" in the Greek is a term when used denotes that it will be revealed "Right Now".   As in the "Mystery" in the above verse is speaking to......"that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

 

The Mystery is not the "Number".... the "mystery" is the Whole Concept (Everything after "mystery") .  But I'm sure you knew that.

 

So when does the fullness of the gentiles come in and the mystery end?

 

Rev10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

So we see that the church or the times of the gentiles continues to the seventh trumpet.

 

Scratch that "But I'm sure you knew that" comment above.

 

So you're Equivocating (Fallacy) the "Mystery Number" of the Gentiles you contrived from Rom 11:25 above with the "Mystery of GOD" in Rev 10:7?? 

 

Define Exegesis......?