Post Tribbers - Please explain

[Enoch2021]

Enoch I dont think you understand what I mean by specific. There are only 7 trumpets sounding in the whole book of revelations. It wouldnt have been important in 1 corinthians 15:52 to put the word last in there if there was no record elsewhere of how many trumps there are total. There are only 7 trumps in revelations. It says the last trump. There is only seven.

Also to reply on what youmsaid the church was already in heaven when John arrives....

revelations 6:11 says some of the church is still on earth. And also 13:7.

 

 

========================================================================

 

There are only 7 trumpets sounding in the whole book of revelations.

 

There are only Seven Trumpets in Revelation.....doesn't Preclude the Fact of GOD'S Trump.

 

And it's not the Book of RevelationS (Plural).  It's the Book of RevelatioN (Singular)

 

revelations 6:11 says some of the church is still on earth. And also 13:7.

 

 

(Revelation 6:9-11) "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:  {10} And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?  {11} And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

 

 

These are "The Martyrs".  The Millions of them that have died for the WORD of GOD......  Jesus Christ.  From the Time of Stephen up to Revelation. 

 

They're told to wait Until their Brethren (Tribulation Saints) are killed the way the were.

 

Moreover this is just the 5th Seal.....GOD'S Judgement has merely just begun.  These are singing "How Long" must we wait.  This makes absolutely no sense if they have just been Killed.

 

Furthermore, Revelation is GOD'S Judgement.  The Passage States they were killed for "The WORD OF GOD"....are you postulating that GOD Killed these Martyrs for the WORD OF GOD?  :huh:

 

 

 

(Revelation 13:7) "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

 

This isn't "The Church".  This verse says "these" Saints were Overcome by the beast!  Christ said "The Church" would never be Overcome.....

 

(Matthew 16:18) " And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

1. Daniels 70th week begins 

 

2. Seal judgments begin.  Do the Seals start Specifically @ the Confirming of the Covenant or sometime after?

 

3. Abomination of desolation (mid point of Daniels week) 

 

4. Rapture-general harvest.  Uh Oh!!  Violates The Doctrine of Imminence, Scripture Violation (1 Thess 5:9) God's Wrath on "The Church".  You also have Zero Scripture Support for such an event.  Among another 20 or so issues discussed @ length on this Thread.

 

5. Trumpet and bowl judgments (wrath of God).  Uh Oh, Aren't the Seal Judgements GOD'S WRATH?  Or are you Endorsing "The Graph" floating around this Thread?  If so, Please show us the 2 Witnesses Prophesying between the 4th and 6th Seal directly from Scripture? .....That's just for starters!

 

6. Christ returns at Armageddon wipeout.  Maybe.  I say Bozrah-----Petra, but I suppose we're just splitting Hairs here.  <-----------  I'll give you half of this

 

 

Note: of course, I believe a Philadelphia church rapture precedes step one, only for the faithful watching ready 10% or so of the church.

 

10% ?? lol.  Can you post the Factors that led to this Product....from Scripture?  Or did you "short us" a decimal point move in your Percentage Calculation...... and it should have read 100%??

 

And....

 

(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

 

Looks like All, to me.  It doesn't say "part" of the dead.  And it say's "we" which are alive not...... "10%" which are alive.

 

Also there is no "Middle Ground" with Faithful.  You either "Are" or "Not".  And I don't think you want to be "lukewarm"....

 

(Revelation 3:16) " So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."

 

 

"April's new thread discussion winner"--A different end times scenario to discuss

 

Is this under, "Every Wind of Doctrine"?  I don't think I can handle another one.

[mevosper]

 

 

 The 24 Elders = "The Church" is already in Heaven when John Arrives.  

 

I have to throw a red flag on this. 

Check this out. 

 

1Ch 24:4, 5 KJV

 

4 And there were more chief men found of the sons of Eleazar than of the sons of Ithamar; and thus were they divided. Among the sons of Eleazar there were sixteen chief men of the house of their fathers, and eight among the sons of Ithamar according to the house of their fathers.

 

5 Thus were they divided by lot, one sort with another; for the governors of the sanctuary, and governors of the house of God, were of the sons of Eleazar, and of the sons of Ithamar.

 

So, I'm inclined to believe that the twenty-four elders seen in Revelation equate to the twenty-four priests that were assigned "governorship" of the sanctuary in 1 Chronicles.

 

Taking this a bit further, we can see how nicely this fits within Revelation 5. The elders bow down as the Lamb of God is able to take the book because of Christ's work on the cross.   No longer is the work necessary by the priesthood in the physical temple. Christ made available to all a way to the Father by his shed blood on the cross. 

 

To further confirm the 24 Revelation elders are "governors of the sanctuary", they are commanded in Exodus 28 to wear mitres of linen and gold, as well as white linen tunic, sash, and britches. Notice what the elders are wearing in Rev 4:4

 

Rev 4:4

And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Edited April 28, 2014 by mevosper

[Atwood]

It was posted: "Back a chapter i believe we see the rapture in chapter 7"

Where does ekklesia occur in Rev 7?

Where is anyone caught up in Rev 7?

Where is a meeting in the air with the Lord by saints in Rev 7?

Where does harpazō occur in Rev 7?

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 The 24 Elders = "The Church" is already in Heaven when John Arrives.  

 

I have to throw a red flag on this. 

Check this out. 

 

1Ch 24:4, 5 KJV

 

4 And there were more chief men found of the sons of Eleazar than of the sons of Ithamar; and thus were they divided. Among the sons of Eleazar there were sixteen chief men of the house of their fathers, and eight among the sons of Ithamar according to the house of their fathers.

 

5 Thus were they divided by lot, one sort with another; for the governors of the sanctuary, and governors of the house of God, were of the sons of Eleazar, and of the sons of Ithamar.

 

So, I'm inclined to believe that the twenty-four elders seen in Revelation equate to the twenty-four priests that were assigned "governorship" of the sanctuary in 1 Chronicles.

 

Taking this a bit further, we can see how nicely this fits within Revelation 5. The elders bow down as the Lamb of God is able to take the book because of Christ's work on the cross.   No longer is the work necessary by the priesthood in the physical temple. Christ made available to all a way to the Father by his shed blood on the cross. 

 

To further confirm the 24 Revelation elders are "governors of the sanctuary", they are commanded in Exodus 28 to wear mitres of linen and gold, as well as white linen robe, sash, and britches. Notice what the elders are wearing in Rev 4:4

 

Rev 4:4

And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

 

 

=============================================================================================

 

Good Try,

 

Although I have to throw a Double Red Flag on your Thesis :lightbulb2:

 

1.   The 24 Elders are Kings and Priests:

 

(Revelation 1:6) "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

 

(Revelation 5:8-10) "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.  {9} And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;  {10} And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

 

The Jews were forbidden to Intermix Kingship (Judah) and Priests (Levites)

 

And the one's you referenced are called "Chief Men".   Not even close.

 

 

2.  The 24 Elders sang a new song and said....."for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us"

 

Who was Slain??......Jesus.  Hast Redeemed who?? The 24 Elders (Kings and Priests)

 

Those "chief men" are Old Testament, correct?   How can they be Redeemed By Christ??  And more importantly, the 24 Elders are in Heaven??  How are these "chief men" in Heaven already, when The OT Saints won't be Judged until the End Of Days....

 

(Daniel 12:13) "But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."

 

 

A hardy and blessed for using the AKJV !!

[Hindsfeet]

Cletus, Remember also that Christ fulfilled the first three Spring Feasts, precisely to the very same hour, and yet, the Jews missed it.

Yes, He is very precise with His words.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Hindsfeet

[mevosper]

 

(Revelation 1:6) "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

 

(Revelation 5:8-10) "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.  {9} And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;  {10} And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

 

Enoch 2021

Correct. The washing with Christ's blood has made "us" kings and priests: 

 

Rev 1:5 KJV

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

 

Rev 1:6 KJV

And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

And Revelation 5:8-10 again confirms this. When Christ died, did his atonement for sin not also work to redeem the saints in the Old Testament? 

The 24 elders sang a new song because there was a more perfect sacrifice for sin rather than goats and bullocks. There was no longer the need for animal sacrifies. 

 

Heb 9:12 KJV

Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

 

Also notice, that once the Lamb had taken the book, not before, were the "us" made into kings and priests. Rev 1:6 reflects this same thought: "...hath made us kings and priests..." after being washed from sins in his blood. Before being made into priests and kings, they were "elders" in heaven. 

 

In Revelation 5:8-10 notice also that the four beasts also fell down and worshipped and sang a new song with the four and twenty elders.

 

Rev 5:8 KJV

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

 

Rev 5:9 KJV

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

 

Rev 5:10 KJV

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

 

 

 

Those "chief men" are Old Testament, correct?   

 

Yes. The Revelation elders are being represented by the earthly sixteen and eight "sanctuary governors" mentioned in 1 Chronicles. They are representing the priestly line that was ordained by God in Exodus and Leviticus. And because it is Old Testament certainly does not make it any less applicable - does it? 

 

 

 

 

How can they be Redeemed By Christ??

 

The answer to this is beyond the scope of this thread. But, suffice it to say, Christ's redemptive work covered the sins of all believers - from the beginning of time, to the end. His blood is what made it possible to "put on incorruptible".  With that said, this is a great study topic - one every christian should have even just a simple understanding of. "How did Christ's work on the cross redeem OT saints?"

 

 

 

 And more importantly, the 24 Elders are in Heaven??  How are these "chief men" in Heaven already, when The OT Saints won't be Judged until the End Of Days...

 

Revelation is a very symbolic book. Agreed? With that in mind, these elders are symbolic of the priests of the OT.

It seems there may be a lack of understanding of 'Heaven' and 'End of Days'. What are you basing "OT Saints won't be judged until the End Of Days..." on?  

[Enoch2021]

Enoch, all the trumps are Gods trump. Name one thing that isnt His. And no I am not saying God killed them nor would I. You basicly agree with me on this point but there is an obvious miscommunication and since I cant pinpoint it I will just wait to see if you respond futher for more context clues.

Do you realize in your response to me you are arguing what the word says? It does say overcome however I think you also misinterpret ( not trying to be offinsive here) what its saying. If you keep reading in revelations it says that hell nor its gates did prevail. We win. Simple as that. But if your logic be sound then there was never nor will nevrr be any martyrs. And we know from the bible there are plenty martyrs.

 

 

 

==========================================================================

 

 

GOD'S WORD is Extremely Precise......a comment that you made in an Earlier Post and One in Which I Vehemently Agree ^{1000000000000000000000000000------>}

 

Enoch, all the trumps are Gods trump.

 

Nowhere in Revelation does it say...."with the Trump Of GOD", Nowhere!

 

 

Name one thing that isnt His

 

Currently, the Kingdoms of this World.  How do I know....

 

(Matthew 4:8-10) "Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;  {9} And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.  {10} Then saith Jesus unto him,  Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

 

1.  Jesus didn't question his ownership

 

2.  How could satan tempt Jesus with something he didn't own.

 

It would be like me trying to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge and you being tempted to buy it.

 

 

Do you realize in your response to me you are arguing what the word says?

 

Can you be "a bit" more precise?

 

 

It does say overcome however I think you also misinterpret ( not trying to be offinsive here) what its saying.

 

Really, How so? ......

 

(Matthew 16:18) " And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

 

 "The Church" will not be overcome by satan.  Pretty Clear Cut to me.

 

it says that hell nor its gates did prevail.

 

Actually it doesn't.  It says......(Matthew 16:18) " And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

 

It says "gates of hell....."   There is no 'NOR" in it.

 

 

If you keep reading in revelations

 

Again,  It's not RevelationS (Plural) it's RevelatioN (Singular)

 

But if your logic be sound then there was never nor will nevrr be any martyrs.

 

My logic??  Martyrs and "The Church" are not Mutually Exclusive

 

 

And no I am not saying God killed them nor would I.

 

With "your" logic and By Proxy of your statement......... "revelations 6:11 says some of the church is still on earth. And also 13:7." You are invariably saying the Fellowservents are killed by GOD for The WORD of GOD.  Allow me to explain.....

 

(Revelation 6:9-11) "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:  {10} And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?  {11} And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

 

These are "The Martyrs" that are under the Alter.  The Millions of them that have died for the WORD of GOD......  Jesus Christ.  From the Time of Stephen up to Revelation.

 

The Fellowservants are the Tribulation Saints that you made reference to in your above statement (in Green) as being members of "The Church".

 

Rev 6:11 states....."And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

 

Do you see it?

 

Your Claim:

 

Fellowservants = "The Church" 

 

but.....

 

Martyrs = Fellowservents are Brethern (and will be killed as The Martyrs were for.... The WORD of GOD)

 

The Martyrs = Killed for The WORD of GOD (Rev 6:9 above)

 

You Unwittingly are postulating that the Fellowservents (The Church according to "you") will be killed by GOD for the Word of GOD...... because they come out of Great Tribulation (See Rev 7:14 below---- which is source by GOD.

 

(Revelation 7:14) "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

 

Follow?

[ENOCH2010]

Christians are being killed daily in the muslim countries as we speak. Enoch 2021 are you saying they aren't being overcome by satan. They are included in that number under the alter are they not. I don't get you, when someone points out a hole in your doctrine, you just brush it aside and keep going as though they never said anything.

[Enoch2021]

Christians are being killed daily in the muslim countries as we speak. Enoch 2021 are you saying they aren't being overcome by satan. They are included in that number under the alter are they not. I don't get you, when someone points out a hole in your doctrine, you just brush it aside and keep going as though they never said anything.

 

 

==========================================================================

 

Christians are being killed daily in the muslim countries as we speak. Enoch 2021 are you saying they aren't being overcome by satan.

 

That's been going on since the Birth of "The Church".  Question with all the Martyrs.....did and does The Church still exist?

 

As I said The Martyrs and The Church aren't Mutually Exclusive.  Attention to Detail.

 

 

They are included in that number under the alter are they not.

 

Yes.

 

 

I don't get you,

 

Well you have to be able to put two or more thoughts together to form a coherent conclusion.

 

 

when someone points out a hole in your doctrine, you just brush it aside and keep going as though they never said anything.

 

More Color Commentary backed with another Baseless Generalized Unsupported Assertion.

 

 

There aren't any holes and your argument is not with me....It's with the WORD of GOD.