Post Tribbers - Please explain

[Enoch2021]

 

 

Enoch 2021

 

Why then does one need to receive salvation?  So one does not get what they deserve.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

================================================================

 

Not following your connection here.  Yes of course, Jesus voluntarily became Sin for Us and we are Justified through HIM.

 

I'm only speaking to the terms Wrath and Judgement

 

Enoch 2021

 

Who is the audience that 1 Thes 5:9,10 is written for?  Is it prophecy or is it promise.  If it is prophecy, then this passage was not meant for those who have already died in Christ.  Yet, if this passage is promise, it is meant for all those who receive salvation in Christ, including those who have died in Christ.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

 

 

====================================================================

 

Is it prophecy or is it promise.

 

Both in this specific instance.

 

 

Who is the audience that 1 Thes 5:9,10 is written for?

 

The Church

 

 

If it is prophecy, then this passage was not meant for those who have already died in Christ.

 

It doesn't preclude them, in fact, they rise first .....

 

(1 Thessalonians 4:16) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

[Matt36]

Hi Enoch, hows things buddy?

 

Ive not had tome to go through the latest posts today and its almost bed time. I do that tommorrow.

 

But id like you to do just one thing for me.

 

Could you please cite the verse or verses you use to show that the bible says the rapture will be pre tribulational. Please note, and im not trying to be a wise guy, id really just like the scriptures and not an opinion from you or another to prove it, just the scripture ONLY.

 

Thanks mate, look forward to your reply.

[Montana Marv]

In Essence; What is the reason for Salvation.  What are we being saved from?

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Enoch2021]

In Essence; What is the reason for Salvation.  What are we being saved from?

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

===================================================================

 

Ultimately, Eternal Damnation.

 

However; along the way....those that are alive in the vicinity of the end of days and that are Born Again in Christ will not be recipients of any Wrath from GOD.

[Montana Marv]

Is eternal damnation a blessing or a curse, is it God's final wrath upon all unbelievers.  What is worse, eternal separation or getting hit with some Seal, Trumpet and Bowl Judgments.  Why is it that those unbelievers who have already died missed out on these last forms of wrath.  What is their final wrath???  Rom 2:7,8 - To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life.  But for those who are self seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.  We see salvation referring to eternal life.  Then we see wrath and anger being given to those who reject Salvation.  What wrath do these individuals receive?  Not the wrath of the S, T, and B judgments.   1 Thes 5:9 and 10 have nothing to do with the wrath of the S, T and B judgments.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[OneLight]

 

Then, how can you say this does not pertain to His body, and as you put it, "The Church"? This is in contradiction to what you said about my statement when you claimed "The only way you can rectify this is to Equivocate (Fallacy) "Believers" with the "The Church"."

 

Yes because Matthew's Account (The Olivet Discourse) has his "Target Audience" as the Jews/Israel.  "The Church" and "Israel" have different Origins and Different Destinies and are distinct from each other.....

 

(Romans 11:25) "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

 

Also, it would have been impossible for Matthew to reference "The Church" (Born Again Christians) because that Mystery wasn't revealed until it was Paul's honor to reveal it in Eph 3.....

 

(Ephesians 3:5-6) "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;  {6} That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"

 

 

Can you explain how you see me am trying to mislead,

 

Most of the Time, Equivocations are just errors lacking any malicious intent. 

 

 

To begin with, I do not accept replacement theories.  Yet His word is for us all.  In Him, there is neither male or female, Jew or Gentile ...  though Christ is being specific in some areas, He is speaking to all who follow Him.  We may not be living in specific areas during certain times, but His words direct everyone. 

 

To step back and examine what was said and why, please take notice that my reference was in line to the questioning if the believers will be around during the times stated.  Scripture tells us they will be.  You then stated that Jesus was not speaking about "The Church" during this discourse.  Your words were, and I quote:

 

The only way you can rectify this is to Equivocate (Fallacy) "Believers" with the "The Church".

 

The Church is made up of those who believe in Him and follow Him.  How can you say that this is a fallacy?  How can you say that they were not part of the ecclesia at that date and time?

 

Again, more clarity needs to be provided for me to understand your words.

[Enoch2021]

Hi Enoch, hows things buddy?

 

Ive not had tome to go through the latest posts today and its almost bed time. I do that tommorrow.

 

But id like you to do just one thing for me.

 

Could you please cite the verse or verses you use to show that the bible says the rapture will be pre tribulational. Please note, and im not trying to be a wise guy, id really just like the scriptures and not an opinion from you or another to prove it, just the scripture ONLY.

 

Thanks mate, look forward to your reply.

 

 

===========================================================================================

 

No Problem....and to be precise, my view is Pre-70th Week of Daniel.

 

First the scope or overview:

 

What is the Purpose of Great Tribulation?  ....(Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."  "early" is better translated "Earnestly".

 

The main goal is to have the believing Jewish Remnant Petition the LORD to Return.  satan's goal is to prevent that.  Think about it, all this should have been over @ the Cross....satan lost (Big Time )  But it's not over.  The only card satan has left to play...... is to prevent The LORD from returning.  How does he do that....Kill The Believing Jewish Remnant.  He's in for a Shocker @ Bozrah------Petra today.

 

See that "TILL" in Hosea?? ...it's a Biggie!! GOD will never go against or contrary to HIS WORD.  I LOVE HIM for that!!!!  Praise The LORD!!!!!!!!

 

You have to be able to distinguish between "Israel" and "The Church" in Scripture.  Both have different Origins, Paths, and Destinies.  If you don't distinguish between the two, your Eschatology will be a TrainWreck, IMHO.....

 

(Romans 11:25) "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

 

That "until"....is a Biggie!!  A fruitful study is to punch in "Until" or "Till" into a Concordance and track what these passages say.  They're quite illuminating.

 

 

I suppose it boils down to (and for Brevity) 4 sections in Scripture:  2 Thess 2:7-8, Daniel 9:27, 1 Thess 5:9, The Doctrine of Imminence and The 24 Elders:

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.  {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

The "he" is the Holy Spirit....and "HE'S" not going anywhere without "THE CHURCH".  "He's" the Embodiment of it!

In Combination with....

Daniel's "little horn" The Beast/ That Wicked from above (Mister Big Mouth)......

(Daniel 9:27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

To "Confirm The Covenant" the beast/That Wicked has to be known Publicly ("Revealed").  Where's the Holy Spirit that INDWELLS "THE CHURCH" when that happens......TAKEN, out of the Way.

 

 

(1 Thessalonians 5:9) "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

 

GOD'S Wrath clearly begins with the Opening of The Seals in Rev 6.  @ the Very Latest....the 6th Seal:  (Revelation 6:16) "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

 

 

The Doctrine of Imminence:  No Preceding event to The Rapture (That is, nothing that you could discern via "Timed" events that could clue you when Christ will Return.

 

That most documented Specific "timed" event leading to the Second Coming in Scripture is: Time, Times, and a Dividing of Time: Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7, Rev 12:14; 1260 Days: Rev 11:3, Rev 12:6, Rev 12:14; 42 Months: Rev 11:2, Rev 13:5.

 

These all speak to the time from the Abomination of Desolation "Until" Christ's Return.  Here's the problem....anyone even with a cursory knowledge of Scripture (Especially Dan and Rev) could pretty much Mark their Calendars and Set Their Watches from the Abomination of Desolation in Anticipation of Christ.  Which then would nullify this Passage (and dozens more).....

 

(Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."  All who've read and understood Daniel and Revelation WOULD KNOW.

 

For me personally, it's when "That Wicked" Confirms the Covenant.  It won't be a "secret" Covenant and it will be One of the Main Reasons people follow him.

 

You could start the Calendar and Watches countdown @ the "Confirming of the Covenant."........Daniel's 70th Week.

 

 

 

The Identity of the 24 Elders:

 

The 24 Elders are Representatives of The Church.  And if that's the Case (and it is as I will show below ), then The Rapture is well before The Great Tribulation because they are in Heaven when John Arrives in Chapter 4.

Lets Identify these 24 Elders, First:

-  Identified as the Redeemed (Rev 5: 9,10)

-  only three are Identified in all of Scripture as Kings and Priests (Melchizedek, Jesus, and the Redeemed......US )

- They worship the Lamb before he receives the Scroll; in fact, they are already in Heaven when John arrives.

- Tribulation begins when the Scroll is Unsealed

Bear in mind, The Royal Line (Judah) and The Priesthood (Levites) were to be kept separate as noted throughout the OT.  The Church appears to have no such restriction....

A Closer Look:

Peter says: (1 Peter 2:9) "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"

Royal Priesthood: Kings and Priests

John in Revelation says:  (Revelation 1:5-6) "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,  {6} And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

John is including himself in this group of Kings and Priests with "us".

Who else is John including in the "us"?? The ones that are washed from our sins in HIS Blood....."The Church" (Born Again Christians).

Hmmm, any more clues?

(Revelation 5:8-10) "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.  {9} And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;  {10} And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

The 24 Elders Sang a New Song:  Song of The Redeemed.

Hast Redeemed "us"....How?  By The Blood.  From where?  Out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation =  "The Church"

Has made "us" what?:  Kings and Priests.

 

 

Who the 24 Elders Can't Be, (Characteristics):

Tribulation Saints:                                                                   24 Elders:

* Not Crowned                                                                          *Crowned, casts them on the Glassy Sea (Rev 4:10)

* Palms in Hands                                                                       *Harps, No Palms

*Saved "out of" Great Tribulation                                               * Kept "out of" Great Tribulation (Rev 3:10)

* Stand Before Thrones                                                             * Sit on Thrones (Rev 4:4)

* Serve HIM Night and Day                                                        * Reign as Kings and Priests (1 Cor 6:2-3, Rev 5:10)

Tribulation Saints were not recognized by John and he asked who they were (Rev 7:14).  Who answered?  One of the Elders.

John never asks who the 24 Elders are.....  Why should he, he knows who they are 

Can't be The Martyrs because they are "under" The Alter and were slain.  24 Elders Sit on Thrones, not "slain".

Can't be Angels....

(Revelation 7:11) "And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,"

All the Angels stood round about the Throne...and who else?  The 24 Elders.  Clear Distinction.

We are running out of contenders @ Light Speed.

Can't be the 144,000, Obviously.

 

 

Many more nuances with "Types", The Seven Churches/Lampstands et al but these are the Primary Proof Texts.

 

Hope it helps

[Enoch2021]

Is eternal damnation a blessing or a curse, is it God's final wrath upon all unbelievers.  What is worse, eternal separation or getting hit with some Seal, Trumpet and Bowl Judgments.  Why is it that those unbelievers who have already died missed out on these last forms of wrath.  What is their final wrath???  Rom 2:7,8 - To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life.  But for those who are self seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.  We see salvation referring to eternal life.  Then we see wrath and anger being given to those who reject Salvation.  What wrath do these individuals receive?  Not the wrath of the S, T, and B judgments.   1 Thes 5:9 and 10 have nothing to do with the wrath of the S, T and B judgments.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

===================================================================================

 

 

1 Thes 5:9 and 10 have nothing to do with the wrath of the S, T and B judgments.

 

Are the Seals Trumpets and Bowls GOD'S Wrath?

 

Rom 2:7,8 - To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life.  But for those who are self seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

 

You've taken this Passage out of context, allow me to elucidate....

 

(Romans 2:5-10) "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;  {6} Who will render to every man according to his deeds:  {7} To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:  {8} But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,  {9} Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;  {10} But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:"

 

See it?

 

Also you're using semantics with "Wrath" and "Final Judgement" as I alluded to in previous posts.  Even given GOD'S Wrath as Final Judgement..... doesn't Preclude "Other" Wraths and is clearly demonstrated by Scripture.

 

Why is it that those unbelievers who have already died missed out on these last forms of wrath.

 

Because they died before the End of Days.  They will stand @ the Great White Throne.

 

 

What is their final wrath???

 

Please show in Scripture where "Final" Wrath is equated with the Lake of Fire, Specifically??

[Enoch2021]

 

 

Then, how can you say this does not pertain to His body, and as you put it, "The Church"? This is in contradiction to what you said about my statement when you claimed "The only way you can rectify this is to Equivocate (Fallacy) "Believers" with the "The Church"."

 

Yes because Matthew's Account (The Olivet Discourse) has his "Target Audience" as the Jews/Israel.  "The Church" and "Israel" have different Origins and Different Destinies and are distinct from each other.....

 

(Romans 11:25) "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

 

Also, it would have been impossible for Matthew to reference "The Church" (Born Again Christians) because that Mystery wasn't revealed until it was Paul's honor to reveal it in Eph 3.....

 

(Ephesians 3:5-6) "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;  {6} That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"

 

 

Can you explain how you see me am trying to mislead,

 

Most of the Time, Equivocations are just errors lacking any malicious intent. 

 

 

To begin with, I do not accept replacement theories.  Yet His word is for us all.  In Him, there is neither male or female, Jew or Gentile ...  though Christ is being specific in some areas, He is speaking to all who follow Him.  We may not be living in specific areas during certain times, but His words direct everyone. 

 

To step back and examine what was said and why, please take notice that my reference was in line to the questioning if the believers will be around during the times stated.  Scripture tells us they will be.  You then stated that Jesus was not speaking about "The Church" during this discourse.  Your words were, and I quote:

 

The only way you can rectify this is to Equivocate (Fallacy) "Believers" with the "The Church".

 

The Church is made up of those who believe in Him and follow Him.  How can you say that this is a fallacy?  How can you say that they were not part of the ecclesia at that date and time?

 

Again, more clarity needs to be provided for me to understand your words.

 

 

 

 

============================================================================

 

 

To begin with, I do not accept replacement theories.

 

Neither do I.  Where did I even remotely imply that?  GOD has a plan for Israel....See Rev from Chapter 4 to the End.  And.....

 

(Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

In Him, there is neither male or female, Jew or Gentile ...  though Christ is being specific in some areas, He is speaking to all who follow Him.

 

Well in your response in Message # 95 you said they were "Believers" Matthew was talking to, correct?  Looking @ these Passages more closely now, I don't see the Specific term "believers".  To be Hyper Specific, Christ was speaking to Peter, James, John, and Andrew only in this discourse.... and as we know now, Matthew's message has Transcended those to which he was speaking to specifically.

 

That's why I go back to Matthew's "Target Audience".  Not just exclusively the Jew, but a cursory review of his Entire Gospel, it's pretty clear to me.

 

(Galatians 3:26-28) "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.  {27} For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.  {28} There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

 

He's talking about Believers in Christ in this Passage.  To those, there is no difference...we are One With Christ.

 

What about the Unbelieving Jew?  Are you saying he is spoken of in this passage?

 

Jew (Born Again)  +  Gentile (Born Again) =  "The Church"

 

The Church is made up of those who believe in Him and follow Him.  How can you say that this is a fallacy?  How can you say that they were not part of the ecclesia at that date and time?

 

I didn't say that was a Fallacy.  I said you were Equivocating the Term "Believers" (Which is not found in the text in Matthew) with "The Church" Specifically.  Having said that, technically I was wrong.....because Christ's audience specifically was (Peter, James, John, and Andrew) and they were most Definitely Believers.

 

However, my overall point remains....

 

I'm sure in GOD'S eyes, @ that specific moment in time, the believing Jew was apart of "The Church" to come.  In Matthew's Eye or the Born Again Jew's Eye they wouldn't know exactly what that meant because the Mystery of the "True Church" wasn't known until Paul Revealed it in Ephesians....that is, The (Born Again) Gentiles will be fellow heirs.

 

My overall point is that Matthew's Gospel which is an Amazing Book, does not speak to "The Church" specifically.... because from Matthew's perspective @ the Time, he couldn't speak to it because he didn't and couldn't know of it.

 

 

Hope that helps to clarify.

[Spock]

Wow, great discussion fellows. Enoch and Montana have been busy little beavers.

Are you convinced yet Montana? It sounds like you are close. Let me know so I can scratch this off my to do list. (I said I would get back with you, but maybe I won't have to.)