Very Tough Question

[Budman]

Bud where you are going wrong is in assuming straight away that the word translated 'found' means exactly what we now use that to mean...eg...'discovered'

I believe it means found by the way the prophesy is worded; "though you will be sought, you will never be found again,"

Sought: i.e., to seek, to look for something. Tyre will be looked for and not found.

This is where we need to understand that our translations of the original can sometimes be somewhat inadequate and initially misleading...but the upside to this is that it really makes you search the Scriptures to double-check and confirm the import of a teaching/doctrine/statement/fact

Botz, I went to BibleGateway and went through every single english translation of this verse. They ALL translate it to mean just the way it is written. Not to mean 'to exist'or 'to come forth'. Could all of those translators gotten it wrong?

warm regards

-bud

[other one]

Are you all saying that I can't trust any english translation of the Bible???

[Leonard]

Bud, it's rather how we ourselves use the English word 'found' to mean several different things. I see some statuary my wife wants me to buy, and I say: "I can't find room for it." Now actually, there is 'room' for it, but it might make the place look too full, or cluttered.

No room could be 'found' at the inn for Jesus. Well, there were no doubt little niches and corners where they could have had room, but it would have been inconvenient.

A country might announce they have 'found' no room for a king. Well, odds are there was a cave or tent somewhere (perhaps even a 2 bedroom flat!), but by now you get my point.

[Matthitjah]

Budman,

God has Truly spoken.

Here is one explanation. I want to add just because the explanation does not fit into mans rational? Does not mean that God does not work in mysterious ways to fulfill His Mighty Will.

The following is an example of specific biblical prophecy and its fulfillment:

In Ezekiel 26 we can read the following seven prophecies against the city of Tyre, written in 590 B.C.:

1. Nebuchadnezzar shall take the city.

2. Other nations shall also participate in the fulfillment of this prophecy.

3. The city will be made flat like the top of a rock.

4. It will become a place for the spreading of fishing nets.

5. Its stones and timbers will be laid in the sea.

6. Other cities will greatly fear at the fall of Tyre.

7. The old city of Tyre shall never be rebuilt.

Historically, the fulfillment of this prophecy took place in the following manner. In 586 B.C. Nebuchadnezzar laid siege to Tyre. He captured it thirteen years later in 573 B.C. However, when he finally captured the city, the inhabitants had secretly moved, with their valuables, to an island approximately one-half mile from the shore. Nebuchadnezzar could not conquer them on this island without a navy, and therefore, only captured an empty city.

Tyre continued in this manner for 251 years, with only the first prophecy of the seven fulfilled. However, in 322 B.C., Alexander the Great wished to capture the city of Tyre because of its strategic location. He felt that he could not conquer the island city with only his navy, and therefore ordered his army to construct a causeway from the mainland to the island. In making this causeway, his soldiers took all the stones and timber from the old city and pushed it into the sea. They scraped away all of the soil, literally transforming the old city into a flat rock. With this causeway, Alexander's army attacked by land, and his navy by sea. In this manner, he captured the city. The neighboring cities were so frightened after hearing of the manner in which Alexander had conquered Tyre that they surrendered to him. Today, visitors to this place find that this flat rock area is a popular place for fishermen. They spread out their nets to dry them on this very spot. Despite its excellent location, the city has never been rebuilt.

If God did not infallibly inspire the writing of the Bible, how could Ezekiel have prophesied so exactly what would happen to Tyre more than 250 years later?

Fulfilled to the tee. It took 250 years but Tyre is a flat fishing rock to this day as well her timbers were thrown into the ocean. She remains a defeated power even unto this day and a bald mound for spreading fishing nets.

This came from an apologetics site for teens;

http://www.holybible.com/resources/doctrine1/p93.shtml

I would also add all this came upon her because she said AHA! unto God. She spoke against God's beloved Jerusalem.

I don't know about you? You better not say Aha! unto my wife.

Peace,

Dave

[Kabowd]

A friend from another board posted this once, so I thought I'd share it here (he sometimes posts here as Elijah):

In addition to the prophecies concerning Jesus, the Bible contains nearly 2,000 prophecies concerning almost every nation within a thousand miles of Jerusalem. As an illustration let's look at the prophecy about the city of Tyre in Ezekiel 26 and its fulfillment.

Tyre was no small, obscure village. It was a great Phoenician city and a world capital for over 2,000 years. It was to the sea what mighty Babylon was to the land. Yet, in the heyday of its power, the prophet Ezekiel had the audacity to predict for it a violent future and ultimate destruction. This downfall would be due to Tyre's flagrant wickedness and arrogance, traits that were personified in its ruler, Ittobal II, who claimed to be God.

Ezekiel predicted that many nations would come up against Tyre (Ezekiel 26:3); that Babylon under Nebuchadnezzar would be the first to attack it (v. 7); that Tyre's walls and towers would be broken down (vv. 4,9); that the stones, timbers, and debris of that great city would be thrown into the sea (v. 12); that its location would become a bare rock and a place for the drying of fishermen's nets (vv. 4-5, 14); and finally, that the city of Tyre would never be rebuilt (v. 14)

History proves that all this is precisely what happened. Many nations did come up against Tyre -- the Babylonians, the Greeks, the Romans, the Muslims, and the Crusaders, to name a few. And Nebbie was indeed the first of these invaders, who - after a thirteen year siege - broke down the walls and towers of mainland Tyre, thus fulfilling the first of Ezekiel's prophecies. Nebbie massacred all of Tyre's inhabitants except for those who escaped to an island fortress a half-mile out in the Med.

Centuries after Ezekiel's body had decomposed in his grave, Alexander the Great fulfilled a major portion of the prophecy. In order to conquer the island fortress of Tyre (without the luxury of a navy), he and his celebrated architect Diades devised on of the most brilliant engineering feats of ancient warfare. They built a causeway from Tyre's mainland to the island fortress, using the millions of cubic feet of rubble left over on mainland Tyre. Thus Tyre was scraped literally bare as a rock, just as Ezekiel predicted.

The most astonishing of Ezekiel's predictions was that Tyre would never be rebuilt. This is singularly incredible because Tyre is strategically located on the east coast of the Med Sea. It also contains the Springs of Reselain, which pump ten million gallons of fresh water daily -- enough to take care of the needs of a modern city. Yetm history records that after a succession of invasions, Tyre finally and irrevocably fell in AD 1291 -- never to be rebuilt again. Today Tyre has been humbled to the point of becoming a place for the drying of fishermens' nets -- just as Ezekiel prophesied two-and-one-half millenia ago.

[Kabowd]

This is rather long, but it's VERY interesting (concerning prophecies). More stuff Elijah posted on another board about prophecies being fulfilled:

10 fulfilled in 1948

1. The Jews would regain control of Israel

Bible passage: Amos 9:14-15

Written: about 750 BC

Fulfilled: 1948

  In Amos 9:14-15, the prophet said that there would come a time when the Jews would again have Israel as their own land and that they would never be uprooted again. Amos delivered this prophecy about 2700 years ago, shortly before the kingdom of Israel lost its independence to the Assyrian Empire. Israel was not an independent nation again until May 14, 1948. Within hours of declaring independence in 1948, the surrounding countries attacked tiny Israel. But Israel prevailed and was able to expand Israel's borders.

Here is Amos 9:14-15

  I will bring back my exiled people Israel; they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them," says the Lord your God.

2. Israel would be brought back to life

Bible passage: Ezekiel 37:10-14

Written: between 593-571 BC

Fulfilled: 1948

  Ezekiel 37:10-14 states that the prophet Ezekiel received a vision about 2600 years ago in which Israel was seen as a scattering of dried-up bones. In this vision, God tells Ezekiel that the bones (Israel) would be brought back to life. Just as Ezekiel had prophesized, the Jews were brought back to the land, and the country of Israel was brought back to life, when it declared independence in 1948. This was the first time in about 2900 years that Israel was both united and independent.

Here is Ezekiel 37:10-14

  So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet--a vast army. Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, `Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.' Therefore prophesy and say to them: `This is what the Sovereign Lord says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.'"

3. Isaiah spoke of a Israel being reborn in one day

Bible passage: Isaiah 66:7-8

Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC

Fulfilled: 1948

  In Isaiah 66:7-8, the prophet foreshadowed the re-birth of Israel in 1948. Isaiah describes a woman giving birth before going into labor, and he speaks of a country being born in one day. This accurately describes what happened on May 14, 1948 - when the Jews declared independence for Israel as a united and sovereign nation for the first time in 2900 years.

  During that same day, the United States issued a statement recognizing Israel's sovereignty. And, only hours beforehand, a United Nations mandate expired, ending British control of the land. During a 24-hour span of time, foreign control of the land of Israel had formally ceased, and Israel had declared its independence, and its independence was acknowledged by other nations. Modern Israel was literally was born in a single day.

  But there's more: Isaiah said the birth would take place before there would be labor pains. And that too is precisely what happened. A movement called Zionism began in the 1800s to encourage Jews worldwide to move to Israel, which at that time was called Palestine. Within hours of the peaceful declaration of independence in 1948, Israel was attacked by the surrounding countries of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Saudi Arabia. Israel prevailed in that war and expanded the size of the country by 50 percent.

  So, when you read Isaiah 66:7-8, keep in mind that Israel became a country in a single day, and that it was born of a movement called Zionism, and that the birth was peaceful but the aftermath was painful.

Here is Isaiah 66:7-8

  "Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son. Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children."

4. Israel would be re-established as a united nation

Bible passage: Ezekiel 37:21-22

Written: between 593-571 BC

Fulfilled: 1948

  In Ezekiel 37:21-22, the prophet said about 2600 years ago that God would one day bring the Jews back to Israel, as a united nation. Israel had been split into two kingdoms in about 926 BC, called Judah and Israel. But, when the Jews reclaimed sovereignty in 1948, they did so as a united people, creating one nation - Israel.

Here is Ezekiel 37:21-22

  and say to them, `This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms.

5. The second Israel would be more impressive than the first

Bible passage: Jeremiah 16:14-15

Written: sometime from 626 to about 586 BC

Fulfilled: 1948

  In Jeremiah 16:14-15, the prophet said the second Israel would be more impressive than the first. And in many regards, it is. The first time that Israel was established as a country was after Moses led the Jews out of Egypt, where they had been enslaved for 400 years. The Jews then conquered Canaan and established Israel sometime about 3400 years ago. But the second time that Israel was established was after the Jews had been scattered worldwide, for nearly 2000 years. This time the Jews had to return from as far away as the United States, China, Russia and South Africa.

Here is Jeremiah 16:14-15

  "However, the days are coming," declares the Lord, "when men will no longer say, `As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,' but they will say, `As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the Israelites up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.' For I will restore them to the land I gave their forefathers.

6. Ezekiel predicted when Israel would be re-established

Bible passage: Ezekiel 4:3-6

Written: between 593-571 BC

Fulfilled: 1948

  In Ezekiel 4:3-6, the prophet said the Jews, who had lost control of their homeland, would be punished for 430 years. This prophecy, according to Bible scholar Grant Jeffrey, pinpointed the 1948 rebirth of Israel. Here's a summary of Jeffrey's theory:

  1. Ezekiel said the Jews were to be punished for 430 years because they had turned away from God. As part of the punishment, the Jews lost control of their homeland to Babylon. Many Jews were taken as captives to Babylon.

  2. Babylon was later conquered by Cyrus the Great, in 539 BC. Cyrus allowed the Jews to leave Babylon and to return to their homeland. But, only a small number of the Jews returned. The return had taken place sometime around 536 BC, about 70 years after Judah lost independence to Babylon.

  3. Because most of the Jews chose to stay in pagan Babylon rather than return to the Holy Land, the remaining 360 years of their punishment was to be multiplied by 7. The reason is explained in Bible's book of Leviticus. (Leviticus 26:18, 26:21, 26:24 and 26:28). In Leviticus, the Bible says that if the people did not repent while being punished, the punishment would be multiplied by 7. And, by staying in pagan Babylon, most of the people had refused to repent for turning away from God.

  4. So, if you take the remaining 360 years of punishment and multiply by 7, you get 2,520 years. But, Jeffrey says those years are actually "lunar" years, based on a 360-day lunar calendar that was in use during the time of this prophecy. If you convert the 2,520 lunar years to our modern solar calendar, the result is 2,484 years.

  5. And, there were exactly 2,484 years from 536 BC to 1948, which is the year that Israel regained independence.

Here is Ezekiel 4:3-6

  (In this Bible passage, Ezekiel is asked by God to symbolically act out the 430 years of punishment)

 

[Botz]

Botz...

Bud where you are going wrong is in assuming straight away that the word translated 'found' means exactly what we now use that to mean...eg...'discovered'

Budman...

I believe it means found by the way the prophesy is worded; "though you will be sought, you will never be found again,"

Sought: i.e., to seek, to look for something. Tyre will be looked for and not found

Hi Budman.

I am afraid I have more bad news...(but it is good really )

The word 'sought' which in Hebrew is 'bakas' is best translated 'desired' or 'longed for' and to my understanding the sentence would be better translated.

"...though thou be longed for, yet shalt thou never exist again, saith the Lord GOD."

If you go with the English translations it could be argued that the original Tyre was never found to exist again even when sought out...just rubble underwater etc...but I think this conveys a poorer understanding.

Other One. You said...

Are you all saying that I can't trust any english translation of the Bible???

I am saying trust the word of G-d...He makes no mistakes...and sometimes our translations do not explain the full import of His words and we must realize this...does this mean we chuck away our English Bibles and our faith? Not at all...it just means that sometimes we need to make doubly sure of things especially if there is a little difficulty in grasping the meaning .

[Trinity]

I agree with you Botz, You really must understand the Hebrew and Greek to full understand the bible and if you don't you must take it at its word because i'v studied and studied and never found a contradiction and so many others have studied and studied and never found one.

May i ask you to get a lexicon? That may help you out greatfully.

[Budman]

Guys, I want to thank-you all. You have answered my objections to the fullest extent without getting angry or giving a "you just gotta have faith" answer.

I knew the answers were here. It's easy to see that God is working through these boards. I just love Worthy...and all of you.

warm regards

-bud