the two witnesses?

[justfaith]

 

 

Though there is no conclusive proof of who the two witnesses are I would like to put forward one possible concept on who the two witnesses just might be.

I do not believe they are Moses, Enoch, Elijah, symbolic church or Israel or any form of Institue or even some two new people who represent Moses and Enoch.

I will present my evidence based purely on the consistency of the Bible, the concept of The Lord is the same yesteday, today and tomorrow.

There are 7 Facts with wich we must agree with to try identify the 2 witnesses.

1. The 2 witnesses are symbolic or ar called the 2 Olive Trees Rev11:4 and Zec 4:3-11

2. They stand in the presence of God of the whole earth Rev11:4 and zec4:3-11

3. The 2 anointed ones

4. They prohpecy for a period of 42 months

5. any attempt to hurt them results in immidiate death Rev 11.5

6. They are eventually killed

7. after 3.5 days they are resurrected and the ascend to heaven infront of the world.

We have to rule out Enoch, Moses, Noah or any OT Saint simple because Jesus eliminated that thougt for us

John 3:13 and no man has ascended up to heaven

They can therefore not be standing in the presence of God as they are in their graves awaiting the ressurection.

Hebrews 9:27 it is appointed unto men to die once. Evidence therefore must dictate it can not be OT saints to be one of the 2 witnesses.

I put it to you the 2 witnesses are Gabriel and Michael.

Factual evidence to consider.

1. Two Archangels

2. Anointed ( angels are annointed to minister God's will)

3. They stand in God's presence on both sides of the mercy seat.... The ark of the covernant confirms this.

4. Two olive trees are associated to two Cherubims - 1 King 6:23

5. Angels do prophecies Gen 19, Judges 6, Judges 13, Daniel 3:28, Daniel 6:22, Acts 5:19, Acts 12:8 Rev 1:1

6. The city of Sodom, The almigt visited earth with 2 angels. God sent the two Angels to do a report on Sodom or witness for God. Here we have a commonality.

7. It is not hard to conceve that the two Arch angels would wear sackcloth

Can an Angel Die?

God did in human flesh....remeber God can turn Angels from spirit form to physical flesh form...so if God can die in flesh so could Angels

8. Two Archangles are ever mentioned in Scripture Michael and Gabriel

9. We know that Gabriel is only sent to deliever the most important messages.

10. We know angels can send pleagues

Why did not Jesus take the firm of an angel ?

 

What was the purpose of Enoch,Moses and Elijah to be taken up?

 

jesse.

 

 

Deuteronomy 34:5 So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord.

 

Deuteronomy 34:7 And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.

 

 

Moses died my friend 

[Otsie]

 

I have always wondered, that if two persons show up in Jerusalem, began preaching and calling fire down from heaven, how can the world not know who they are? And if the world knows who they are, then would not the Anti Christ also know they will rise up after he kills them? I am assuming he has read the same book.

Otsie.

 

The world have been conditioned to believe that the two witnesses are the bad guys.

Because they stopped the rain, and cause plagues on earth.

The false prophet maybe knew it ,but what can he do,for that is God's will.

Satan has to do what he has to do,there is no turning back. He is being snared.

 

jesse.

 

That makes sense Jesse.  I noticed that you appear to identify the Anti Christ as the false prophet. Do you believe they are one in the same?

Could not Mohammed be the False Prophet?

[other one]

Mohammad is dead....

[Guest Jesse]

 

 

I have always wondered, that if two persons show up in Jerusalem, began preaching and calling fire down from heaven, how can the world not know who they are? And if the world knows who they are, then would not the Anti Christ also know they will rise up after he kills them? I am assuming he has read the same book.

Otsie.

 

The world have been conditioned to believe that the two witnesses are the bad guys.

Because they stopped the rain, and cause plagues on earth.

The false prophet maybe knew it ,but what can he do,for that is God's will.

Satan has to do what he has to do,there is no turning back. He is being snared.

 

jesse.

 

That makes sense Jesse.  I noticed that you appear to identify the Anti Christ as the false prophet. Do you believe they are one in the same?

Could not Mohammed be the False Prophet?

 

 

Yes ,mohamad is dead and buried.

All prophets are of the jews; the false one must have jewish blood.

 

Nahum 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

Nahum 1:10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.

Nahum 1:11 There is one come out of thee, that imagineth evil against the LORD, a wicked counsellor.

 

jesse.

 

[Otsie]

 

 

 

I have always wondered, that if two persons show up in Jerusalem, began preaching and calling fire down from heaven, how can the world not know who they are? And if the world knows who they are, then would not the Anti Christ also know they will rise up after he kills them? I am assuming he has read the same book.

Otsie.

 

The world have been conditioned to believe that the two witnesses are the bad guys.

Because they stopped the rain, and cause plagues on earth.

The false prophet maybe knew it ,but what can he do,for that is God's will.

Satan has to do what he has to do,there is no turning back. He is being snared.

 

jesse.

 

That makes sense Jesse.  I noticed that you appear to identify the Anti Christ as the false prophet. Do you believe they are one in the same?

Could not Mohammed be the False Prophet?

 

 

Yes ,mohamad is dead and buried.

All prophets are of the jews; the false one must have jewish blood.

 

Nahum 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

Nahum 1:10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.

Nahum 1:11 There is one come out of thee, that imagineth evil against the LORD, a wicked counsellor.

 

jesse.

 

 

Yes Mohammad is dead, but is he not alive in the hearts of Muslims and is his name not on every tongue of the descendants of Ishmael?

[Guest Jesse]

 

 

 

 

I have always wondered, that if two persons show up in Jerusalem, began preaching and calling fire down from heaven, how can the world not know who they are? And if the world knows who they are, then would not the Anti Christ also know they will rise up after he kills them? I am assuming he has read the same book.

Otsie.

 

The world have been conditioned to believe that the two witnesses are the bad guys.

Because they stopped the rain, and cause plagues on earth.

The false prophet maybe knew it ,but what can he do,for that is God's will.

Satan has to do what he has to do,there is no turning back. He is being snared.

 

jesse.

 

That makes sense Jesse.  I noticed that you appear to identify the Anti Christ as the false prophet. Do you believe they are one in the same?

Could not Mohammed be the False Prophet?

 

 

Yes ,mohamad is dead and buried.

All prophets are of the jews; the false one must have jewish blood.

 

Nahum 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

Nahum 1:10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.

Nahum 1:11 There is one come out of thee, that imagineth evil against the LORD, a wicked counsellor.

 

jesse.

 

 

Yes Mohammad is dead, but is he not alive in the hearts of Muslims and is his name not on every tongue of the descendants of Ishmael?

 

 

Otsie.

 

The false prophet will be alive at the coming. And will be cast into the fire.

The last beast on earth are also the ten toes of the image(dan2),which is IRON mixed with clay.

There will be no muslem empire in the near future.

Muslems are just used by the IRON to create fear and tensions,and to divide the nations.

The IRON always use the same policy;that is; observe;devide; and conquer.

The populations have been divided by mixing them in.

Order out of chaos. First create chaos,then bring in their new world order.

 

jesse.

[Hobbes]

It will not be Moses.

 

It will be Enoch and Elijah.

 

Genesis 5:²³ And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: ²⁴ And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

 

2 Kings 2:11And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

 

Both were taken by God or taken up to the heavens ( not Heaven ) and since flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, they are right now travelling through time where they will be dropped off to serve Him during the great tribulation.

 

A clue to this displacement can be seen with Philip.

 

Acts 8:³⁹ And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. ⁴⁰ But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

 

Since the two will be killed during the great tribulation, they are not transfigured yet.

 

Revelations 11:⁷ And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. ⁸ And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. ⁹ And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. ¹⁰ And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

¹¹ And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. ¹² And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

 

That will be when those two will enter into Heaven.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Hobbes

[Guest Jesse]

It will not be Moses.

 

It will be Enoch and Elijah.

 

Genesis 5:²³ And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: ²⁴ And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

 

2 Kings 2:11And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

 

Both were taken by God or taken up to the heavens ( not Heaven ) and since flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, they are right now travelling through time where they will be dropped off to serve Him during the great tribulation.

 

A clue to this displacement can be seen with Philip.

 

Acts 8:³⁹ And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. ⁴⁰ But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

 

Since the two will be killed during the great tribulation, they are not transfigured yet.

 

Revelations 11:⁷ And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. ⁸ And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. ⁹ And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. ¹⁰ And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

¹¹ And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. ¹² And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

 

That will be when those two will enter into Heaven.

 

Hobbes.

 

Moses's body was taken up.Jesus saw Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration.

Moses changed water into blood; Elijah stopped the rain.Just as the two witnesses will do.

 

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil

                               ***he disputed about the body of Moses***,

durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

jesse.

[Hobbes]

Jesus was transfigured;  Moses & Elijah were not.  They appeared to Jesus, but that's it.

 

Matthew 17:1And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, ² And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. ³ And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

 

Mark 9:1And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. ² And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. ³ And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. ⁴ And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

 

Luke 9:²⁸ And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. ²⁹ And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. ³⁰ And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: ³¹ Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

 

Jesus spoke to them concerning his decease which He should accomplish at Jerusalem.

John 3:¹³ And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

 

Moses body was not taken up yet because Jesus had not risen.  Same goes for Elijah & Enoch.

 

As for Jude 1:9, we cannot know what the dispute was about regarding the body of Moses, but we do know in according to His word, he was buried in an undisclosed location in the land of Moab.

 

Deuteronomy 34:⁵ So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. ⁶ And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day

 

I can entertain the idea that it could be Moses, but I just don't see the point of it when neither Elijah and Enoch had not died yet.

 

Hebrews 9:27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 

After His resurrection, I believe Moses is in Heaven now where Paradise is now located waiting forthe first inheritance to put on the incorruptible and attend the Marriage Supper of the Lamb when later on, the other two witnesses, Enoch & Elijah will join after their death and resurrection.

 

I reckon we shall all know for sure eventually, but scripture seems to point me to this view..

 

1 Corinthians 13:⁹ For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. ¹⁰ But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. ¹¹ When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. ¹² For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. ¹³ And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

 

 

[Persuaded]

Hebrews 9:27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 

This scripture is often mis-used related to this debate. Paul is clearly speaking in broader terms relating to our responsibility to obtain salvation in this life, and that Christ's one-time death doesn't compare to the frequent sacrifices of the Levitical priesthood. In his argument, he is also refuting the heresy of reincarnation. But the "it is appointed" part of this verse is revealing: this is a general rule, to which there have been several exceptions throughout the Bible- how many times did the widow of Zarephath's son die? Or Jairus' daughter? Or Lazarus? Each clearly "violated" Heb 9:27 if it is taken as an absolute rule like this.