The 5th Beast Of Daniel

[Spock]

Ok, I'm back Marilyn,

You want scripture, pay attention to Daniel 7. I guarantee 4th is there, you show me where it says fifth.

19“Then I wanted to know the meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others and most terrifying, with its iron teeth and bronze claws—the beast that crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. 20I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell—the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully. 21As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them, 22until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.

23“He gave me this explanation: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. 24The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. 25He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.

Spock: I see the word fourth about three times. Can't say I see the word fifth.

So, am I still naked?

[Marilyn C]

Hi Spock,

 

You so make me laugh. Yes there are only 4 beasts, (as I said also) but you & Argosy were talking about the great image as well (#46) referring to Rome as the 4th & last body part. 

 

So can you answer my question as per: Where are the scriptures to say that Rome is the last ruler?

[Spock]

Marilyn,

To start with....

If you believe Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece are one, two, and three beasts, then common sense says The Roman Empire is next up, and they were exceedingly fierce. Well, at least movies like Gladiator and Jesus of Nazareth show that.

It appears to me the two legs are western and eastern Rome, and it appears to me the 10 toes come out of the Roman Empire since there is no 5th empire and because no one ever really conquered Rome.

Sound good so far? Do I have to go further?

[Marilyn C]

Hi Spock,

 

 

 

I can see your thinking. However you are mixing the `beasts & parts of the Great Image` without scriptural proof.

 

Again where are the scriptures to prove that the Roman Empire is the `feet & toes kingdom?`

[Spock]

Marilyn,

I proved without question Rome is the 4th beast. Everything after fourth beast is a continuation of the 4th beast. I now rest my case.

Ball is in your lap now sister. Prove to me there is a fifth apart from Rome and give me the scripture to describe 5.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Spock,

 

Now you must remember that I was never taught this view so I am trying to see how from scripture you think that Rome is the `feet & toes,` & the 4th beast.

You haven`t proven it to me. You are just connecting one symbol to another symbol & saying it is such & such. We can all do that. However to prove your view you need to have scriptures that are not symbolic to undergird what you are saying. Just talking symbols `feet & toes, `4th beast,` well we can all have different versions of that. But what does God say.

 

Prove your case with God`s word explaining those symbols.

[Spock]

The jury has returned reaching their verdict.

And it is.....

Spock has proven his case beyond a reasonable doubt.

Case closed.

On to the next topic- is the antichrist Jewish, Assyrian, both, or none of the above.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Spock,

 

The Anti-Christ would have to be Roman!!!!!!

 

So let me get this straight & I might ad lib also. Because you are a friendly chap (we all agree) you would like me to agree that your use of God`s symbols are the right interpretation. So I`m to look for the most ferocious, blood curdling, (even worse than the Islamic terrorists - beheading & crucifying) groups from Rome that you think will rise & take over the world. Have I got that correct?

 

I think not my dear friend. But we will see.

[ARGOSY]

Hi Spock,

 

The Anti-Christ would have to be Roman!!!!!!

 

So let me get this straight & I might ad lib also. Because you are a friendly chap (we all agree) you would like me to agree that your use of God`s symbols are the right interpretation. So I`m to look for the most ferocious, blood curdling, (even worse than the Islamic terrorists - beheading & crucifying) groups from Rome that you think will rise & take over the world. Have I got that correct?

 

I think not my dear friend. But we will see.

 

I believe nothing is completely obvious or conclusive when interpreting symbolism, its best to go with what is "most obvious"  and then the truth unfolds from there as you keep progressing with what is most obvious. When the fourth (iron) kingdom is introduced , it is most obviously Rome, because the first (Babylon) is defined and history is clear that Persia and Greece then Rome followed on from Babylon.  Sticking with the theme of Rome being Iron, when we move into the iron and clay part of the timeline it most obvious that some aspects of Rome (iron) are retained in the iron and clay part. Now the two feet both visually and via bible description infers a kingdon divided into two parts just after the iron kingdom.  What is clay? The most consistent and obvious interpretation of clay is that it represents true religion, clay being moulded into pots for good use. What then is miry or baked clay? It is clay that is difficult to mould for good use  ie false religion.

 

Now so far I have built up a case based on the most obvious in every situation. I agree nothing is conclusive, everyone can see what they want in symbolism, its only by staying really honest with what is the most obvious in every case that we can gain the truth. To be swayed at any given point by one's own background or what we have been taught, or bias can lead us down the wrong path symbolically.

 

I believe I've built a case for the kingdom that follows the iron kingdom of Rome to have the following attributes:

A) To be still linked to Rome

B) To be divided into 2

C) To be filled with false religion

 

Now we have to compare the most obvious prophetic expectation with what actually happened to the iron kingdom (the Roman Empire)

 

When Rome fell, Rome was not completely destroyed, but its leadership went to the Bishop of Rome (later called the Pope) in Western Europe. The Eastern portion of the Roman Empire was thereafter ruled from Constantinople (Istanbul) which was already the second capital of the Roman Empire.  Thus historically the Roman Empire kept most of its already existing territories and its two capital cities, but changed from a normal empire into two empires of false religion, Papal Rome in the west and Byzantium Constantinople in the East. 

 

And so history confirms our prophetic expectation. Sure the Byzantium Empire was conquered by peoples from within its empire from a new religion, but they were from the same territory, and continued to use the same capital city (Istanbul) and the same title (Caesar). If they were from outside the Byzantium territory or changed the capital city to their home capital city I would say new empire. But Islamic Turkey is merely the continuation of the Byzantium (later Ottoman) empire. Rome continues to exist today in two parts, Papal Europe and Islamic Turkey.

 

Which leads me to agree with you on the Islamic nature of the final beast, the ten horns period of Rome is set up by both parts of Rome (the repaired wound). Thus Papal Europe and Islamic Turkey co-operate to set up this last manifestation of Rome, but this final beast is in the Eastern Roman territories, not Europe.  It is an Islamic Turkish Union that will be set up through the co-operation of the West. (Its happening right now as all the western enemies in the Middle East are crushed and Turkey and Iran are the remaining superpowers in the region)

 

It will be interesting to see how Iran will bend to the west and to Turkey, through internal strife, or open co-operation? Fascinating but tragic to watch. I suspect they will choose open co-operation and with Turkey bide their time for revenge against the west later.

[Paradox]

Good point about talking the most obvious meaning of a symbol first, then making progress with other details.

 

The anti-Christ is clearly out of or from Rome, or even Roman. This is illustrated in more detail in Dan 8 with the goat, and the little horn which continues until the end.

 

Some argue that Europe is the ten horns, and that the anti-Christ is European, and even Anglo American. These 'toe kingdoms' of the image, co exist in that era, so from that perspective, it is correct that any one of them could be potential ground for the AC.

 

Again others, introduce the remainder of the old Ottoman empire - the Islamist nations or persuasions. These too qualify for that time, and in fact are mentioned in some detail in both prophetic books.

 

All these latter day kingdoms do have threads of commonality besides coexisting. I was quite taken back when I heard about how they all contribute to the wrecking of Christianity.

 

So we find the whole world, under some degrading rule, whether it is the red beast of communism or the capitalists hedonistic lifestyle, or the extremes of different religious/political rules.

 

I don't find it hard to believe that the last beast consists of them all. And so yes, the "fifth beast" does not exist... as one extra kingdom, but as the whole world.