Revelation 13

[ARGOSY]

I beg to differ here are 10 prophecies fullfilled in 1948

 

Amos 9:14–15

Ezekiel 37:10-14

Isaiah 66:7-8

Ezekiel 37:21-22

Jeremiah 16:14-15

Ezekiel 4:3-6

Ezekiel 34:13

Jeremiah 31:10

Leviticus 26:3, 7-8

Deuteronomy 30:3-5

 

 

 

Not one of those verses favors fufilment in 1948 rather than fulfilment in the restoration of Israel at the second coming.  Most of them are clearly in the context of the day of the Lord or Messianic reign of Jesus. In addition you have stated in another thread that you believe the current Israel is the Ezekiel 39 Israel.  Israel in Ezekiel 39 is in sin, as is Israel in Joel 2.

 

26 They will forget their disgrace and all their treachery which they perpetrated against Me, when they live securely on their own land with no one to make them afraid.

 

[ARGOSY]

Hi Argosy,

You said to inchrist -

 

`7) Please explain how you feel God intervened in the 6-day war. It appears to me that Israel had the numerical, strategic, technical superiority. They won the war because they were better prepared in every way.`

 

Speaking three weeks after the war ended, as he accepted an honorary degree from Hebrew University, Yitzhak Rabin gave his reasoning behind the success of Israel:

 

 

Our airmen, who struck the enemies' planes so accurately that no one in the world understands how it was done and people seek technological explanations or secret weapons; our armored troops who beat the enemy even when their equipment was inferior to his; our soldiers in all other branches... who overcame our enemies everywhere, despite the latter's superior numbers and fortifications-all these revealed not only coolness and courage in the battle but...an understanding that only their personal stand against the greatest dangers would achieve victory for their country and for their families, and that if victory was not theirs the alternative was annihilation.[163]

Within six days, Israel had won a decisive land war. Israeli forces had taken control of the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria.

 

 

I already posted a Wikipedia article with a more detailed account of the actual numbers and armaments and preparation of both sides.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

 

Israel started the war and initiated a surprise attack on enemy airforce bases, establishing complete air supremacy. Their slightly lesser numbers deployed in action were assisted by Israel's air superiority, better weapons and Israel also had huge numbers of backup troops in their army. Actually deployed troops as follows:

 

West Bank:   Troops deployed     Jordan 45 000   Israel 40 000         Tanks Jordan 270   Israel  200

Egypt:            Troops deployed     Egypt 100 000  Israel 70 000         Tanks Egypt     950  Israel  700

 

History is full of wars where the smaller armies won, very few of these victors claimed divine intervention, the standard claim was technical and tactical superiority, which applies to the 6 day war.  ps Egypt also claimed that Israel's equipment was superior according to the wikipedia article. 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Argosy,

 

Yes I have looked at that page before. Now had you noticed those other details -

 

Israel /

 

Egypt, Syria, Jordan Iraq,

Supported by: Algeria, Kuwait, Libya, Morocco, Pakistan, PLO, Saudia Arabia, Sudan, Tunisia.

 

Strength.

 

Israel. Total troops - 264,000  Deployed - 100,000.

 

Others. Total troops - 547,000  Deployed - 240,000.

 

 

 

Seems like a `David & Goliath` event to me.

[ARGOSY]

Hi Argosy,

 

Yes I have looked at that page before. Now had you noticed those other details -

 

Israel /

 

Egypt, Syria, Jordan Iraq,

Supported by: Algeria, Kuwait, Libya, Morocco, Pakistan, PLO, Saudia Arabia, Sudan, Tunisia.

 

Strength.

 

Israel. Total troops - 264,000  Deployed - 100,000.

 

Others. Total troops - 547,000  Deployed - 240,000.

 

 

 

Seems like a `David & Goliath` event to me.

 

I'm not sure where you are getting your figures from, there were 3 main fronts to the war. I don't have figures for Israel's troops at the Syrian border, but the Wikipedia article claims Israel had deployed at least 115 000 troops just on the other two of those 3 fronts, so your figures for Israel's  deployment are underestimations compared to the Wikipedia article. It seems the 1967 war was a really successful pro-Israel public relations exercise, trying to convince the world that they were the underdogs and not the aggressors. This war had a huge impact on Christian-Israel relations.  Israel initiated the war, and gained a huge tactical advantage by being the first to strike.

 

As I said earlier in this thread, Israel mainly subscribes to the Kabbalistic interpretation of the Old Testament, which is an esoteric New Age non-literal approach to their biblical writings. I don't see why Christians choose to support an Israeli state that is clearly in sin before the second coming, according to Ezekiel 39, and Joel 2.   Sure we are to support Israel and pray for the peace of Jerusalem, but according to Zechariah 14 this peace only occurs to Jerusalem after the war, and according to Ezekiel 39 and Joel 2, only after Israel's repentance. This is why I choose to support Israel by praying for their blessing through repentance. That is biblical blessing, not man's works.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Argosy,

 

My details are from the page you posted. I was just trying to clarify the 6 day war details. Anything else is another topic to me.

[ARGOSY]

Hi Argosy,

 

My details are from the page you posted. I was just trying to clarify the 6 day war details. Anything else is another topic to me.

 

OK , when I read that article, there are 110 000 (I mistakenly said 115 000 earlier) Israeli troops deployed merely on two of the fronts, so the figure is even higher if you consider the Syrian front. This differs from your figure of only 100 000 deployed..

 

"Against Jordan's forces on the West Bank, Israel deployed about 40,000 troops"

"Israeli forces concentrated on the border with Egypt included six armoured brigades, one infantry brigade, one mechanized infantry brigade, three paratrooper brigades, giving a total of around 70,000 men"

 

70000 plus 40000 is 110 000 plus thousands at the Syrian front as well.

 

I am wondering why people would tend to exaggerate these figures, the Israeli government seemed to do the same.  Their opponents acknowledged the Israeli tactical and technical advantage. The pre-emptive air strike by Israel against Egypt to gain air superiority before the Egyptians even attacked Israel, gave Israel the advantage. Its easy to claim miracles, if the Egyptian army was destroyed by weather (like the Spanish Armada against Britain in 1588), or destroyed by sudden panicked infighting (as per some biblical wars) , or by prophetic strategy I would agree there was a miracle. I see shrewd bold tactics in the 1967 war, no miracles.

[ARGOSY]

 

 

 

I'm not sure where you are getting your figures from, there were 3 main fronts to the war. I don't have figures for Israel's troops at the Syrian border, but the Wikipedia article claims Israel had deployed at least 115 000 troops just on the other two of those 3 fronts, so your figures for Israel's  deployment are underestimations compared to the Wikipedia article. It seems the 1967 war was a really successful pro-Israel public relations exercise, trying to convince the world that they were the underdogs and not the aggressors. This war had a huge impact on Christian-Israel relations.  Israel initiated the war, and gained a huge tactical advantage by being the first to strike.

 

 

You would be best to give the full story than a one sided view

 

The Prewar Crisis

On May 13, 1967, Soviet officials informed the Syrian and Egyptian Governments that Israel had massed troops on Syria’s border. Though the report was false, Nasser sent large numbers of Egyptian soldiers into the Sinai anyway. On May 16, Egypt demanded that the United Nations Emergency Force (UNEF), which had been deployed in the Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip since 1957, withdraw from Israel’s border. Secretary-General U Thant replied that he would have to withdraw UNEF from all its positions, including Sharm al-Shaykh, which would put political pressure on Nasser to close the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping. Nasser remained adamant, and on May 22, after UNEF withdrew, he announced that he would close the Straits. In 1957, President Dwight D. Eisenhower had promised that the United States would treat the closure of the Straits as an act of war. Johnson now had three unwelcome options: to renege on Eisenhower’s promise, acquiesce in an Israeli attack on Egypt, or order U.S. forces to reopen the waterway.

Instead, the President played for time. He sought international and Congressional support for Operation Red Sea Regatta, which called for a coalition of maritime nations to send a “probing force” through the Straits if Egypt refused to grant all nations free passage through them. Simultaneously, Johnson implored the Soviets to intercede with Nasser and urged Israeli restraint. “Israel,” Johnson told Israeli Foreign Minister Abba Eban on May 26, “will not be alone unless it decides to go it alone.” Yet over the following week, the administration failed to gain domestic or foreign backing for “Regatta.” Meanwhile, Jordan joined the Arab coalition, heightening the pressure for an Israeli strike. Though Johnson continued to caution Israel against preemption, a number of the President’s advisors had concluded that U.S. interests would be best served by Israel “going it alone” by the time the Israelis actually did so.

 

 

That all makes sense to me.  Obviously the US was expecting Israel to win, that is why they preferred Israel to go it alone, this would have lessened bad US relations in the Middle east. ie they let Israel open the waterway rather than a western alliance. 

[ARGOSY]

 

 

Really not one of them? according to you or to God?

 

 

Yes, not one of those verses you quoted favors an application to 1948 over an application to the restoration of Israel at the second coming, according to the wording and context of those verses (according to the bible).  

 

You are welcome to choose one or two of your best verses to show 1948 was specifically being referred to in those verses, rather than the day of the Lord.  I've already quoted Ezekiel 39 and Joel 2 that differentiate between the sinful period of Israel's gathering, and the blessed period of the gathering of Israel after the day of the Lord. Some Jews with an accurate understanding of their restoration are awaiting their true restoration to Israel on the day of the Lord. These Jews oppose the current early Zionist movement.  God will fetch every one of the scattered Jews on the day of the Lord. Before then we can expect only partial gatherings.

[ARGOSY]

Salty

 

You do support a return of old covenant sacrifices and the Levitical priesthood worship by Jews in Jerusalem, with a temple, right?

 

 

Thats not what the issue is, where did I say I support the idea that the Antichrist builds the temple? key word is antichrist

 

Do you support any rebuilt temple before the second coming? Isn't a temple supposed to contain God, and did not God's presence leave the temple at the crucifixion? A new way was opened where we are the temple of God.  

[ARGOSY]

 

 

A German Viewpoint

A German journalist summarized: “Nothing like this has happened in history. A force including a 1000 tanks, hundreds of artillery cannons, many rockets and fighter jets, and a hundred thousand soldiers armed from head to toe was destroyed in two days in an area covering hundreds of kilometers filled with reinforced outposts and installations. And this victory was carried out by a force that lost many soldiers and much equipment, positions, and vehicles. No military logic or natural cause can explain this monumental occurrence.” [ibid, p. 446.]

 

 

 

ps I was a little amused at this. Do you know that Jews have a tendency to control western media and finance, and lobby western governments? Its in their interests to promote the idea of a miracle war, so that Christians can continue to support their war efforts in the Middle East. I am all in support of the USA protecting Jews from Satan's attempts to destroy the chosen race, but I am not in support of Zionism and world dominance by Israel before the appointed time of the Godly restoration of Israel.

 

The bible says that Israel is in sin up until the day of the Lord. I would rather trust the bible's view on politics than western media.