Revelation 13

[other one]

I wonder if he'll be a Mason?

[ARGOSY]

 

 

This is a complete misrepresentation of my position, for example I support Israel defending itself from rocket attacks from Gaza

 

 

On the one hand you support Israel's right to defend itself now but during 1948 your against Israel having the right to defend itself?

 

 

 

Not at all. Once again you are assuming my position without even asking me.  Of course Israel was right to defend itself in 1948, what I objected to was chasing people from their homes and refusing 700 000 people back into their homes after the war. Neither were they paid out for their vacant homes, the were civilians that did not participate in the war and yet their homes were stolen from them. 

[ARGOSY]

ARGOSY

 

It seems only those claiming a "miracle" also claim that Israel had the weaker technology. Other sources say Israel had superior technology:

http://www.stratfor....y#axzz3Aol9RFFI

"The second essential requirement was an alliance with a great power. Israel's strategy was based on superior technology and organization -- airpower, armor and so on. The true weakness of Israel's strategic power since the country's creation had been that its national security requirements outstripped its industrial and financial base. It could not domestically develop and produce all of the weapons it needed to fight a war. Israel depended first on the Soviets, then until 1967 on France."

 

 

Really? last time I checked war is won by infantry, would you like to tell me what rifles the Israelis had and the issues they had with it compared to the superior rifle of the soviets the Arabs were using?

 

Israel had to face the enemy on three fronts.  Any military general would confirm that is their worest nightmare. 

 

Further the 1967 war has everything that resembles Gideons war

 

Then all the Midianites, the Amalekites, and the desert tribes assembled, crossed the Jordan River, and camped in Jezreel Valley. Sound familier? 

 

That night the LORD said to Gideon, "Attack! Go into the camp! I will hand it over to you. sounds like a preemptive strike doesnt it?

 

So Gideon and his servant Purah went to the edge of the camp. 12 Midian, Amalek, and all of Kedem were spread out in the valley like a swarm of locusts. There were so many camels that they could not be counted. Sounds like the israelites were outnumbered?

 

They blew their rams' horns and smashed the jars they were holding in their hands. 20 The three companies also blew their rams' horns and broke their jars. They held the torches in their left hands and the rams' horns in their right hands so that they could blow them. They shouted, "A sword for the LORD and for Gideon!" 21 While each man kept his position around the camp, everyone in the Midianite camp began to run away, screaming as they fled. 22 The 300 men kept on blowing their rams' horns, and the LORD caused the whole camp of Midian to fight among themselves. Sounds like God deliberate caused confusion amongst the Midianites? I wonder if God caused confusions amongst the Arabs beofre they wanted to attack modern Israel

 

If I let all of you fight the Midianites, the Israelites will boast to me that they saved themselves by their own strength.

 

Can you really sit there and honestly believe Israel defeated its enemies in 1967 by its own strength?

 

Yes in modern warfare wars are won by air superiority, not by rifles. Israel had the air superiority by striking first and eliminating most of the enemies aircraft in the initial strike.

 

Often Israeli tanks were more numerous and more technologically advanced:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Abu-Ageila_(1967)

More importantly, the Israelis had significant advantage in armour: against 66 Egyptian World War II-era T34/85 with 85 mm guns, and 22 SU-100 with 100 mm guns, the Israelis pitted a total of 150 modern tanks: AMX-13's with 75 mm guns, as well as a hundred Centurions and Super Shermans, armed with 105 mm guns.^[1] The guns used by the Centurions were the Royal Ordnance L7 tank guns, specifically made to defeat the T-54, a tank more modern than both types of tanks used by the Egyptians in this battle. On the other side, the best tank gun available for the Egyptians, used by the 22 SU-100 tank destroyers, was a late-WW2 artillery piece overmatched by Centurion's front armor. As a result, in addition to numerical superiority, the Israeli tanks also had a greater effective range than their opponents.

 

You focus on rifles, what about tanks and aircraft?

[ARGOSY]

 

 

On the other hand, Arab villages from which guerilla-terrorist attacks did not originate, and that did not offer armed resistance to the Israeli forces, were left alone by the Israeli soldiers

 

You are listing the original Jewish position, since then Jewish history has been revised by even Jewish historians since the Jewish government released old documents. Wikipedia lists those new historians, you can use the internet to research the books they have written:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Historians

"Much of the primary source material used by the group comes from Israeli government papers that were newly available as a result of being declassified thirty years after the founding of Israel.^[2] Benny Morris, Ilan Pappé, Avi Shlaim, Tom Segev, Hillel Cohen, Baruch Kimmerling^[3] and (retrospectively) Simha Flapan are counted among the "new historians."

"Avi Shlaim described the New Historians' differences from what he termed the "official history" in the following terms. According to Shlaim:The official version said that Britain tried to prevent the establishment of a Jewish state; the New Historians claimed that it tried to prevent the establishment of aPalestinian state

 

• The official version said that the Palestinians fled their homes of their own free will; the New Historians said that the refugees were chased out or expelled
• The official version said that the balance of power was in favour of the Arabs; the New Historians said that Israel had the advantage both in manpower and in arms
• The official version said that the Arabs had a coordinated plan to destroy Israel; the New Historians said that the Arabs were divided
• The official version said that Arab intransigence prevented peace; the New Historians said that Israel is primarily to blame for the "dead end".^[4]

 

 

^{New historians said the refugees were chased out or expelled, your argument is with that long list of Jewish historians, not with me. It appears the west has been duped by a false history to make it look like Israel was weak and unsupported by the west , when the reality is vastly different.} 

[Salty]

 

Salty

 

 

When would the birthrights find their fulfillment? “And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the LAST DAYS” (Genesis 49:1)

 

Are you claiming now the birthrights have already been fulfilled?

 

It was never in God's plan for all the tribes to remain in Israel nor was it in YEHOVAH’s plan for Israel and Judah to remain together (I Kings 12:15 and 24). 

 

See a prophecy came when David was king and Israel was enjoying its greatest geographical expanse:

 

“Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel and will plant them, that they may have a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime” (II Samuel 7:10, I Chronicles 17:9).

 

“That they may have a place of their own…?” Didn’t Israel already have a place of their own when this promise was given?

 

 

I think you well know what I was referring to when I was speaking about the rule of the house of David in Jerusalem ending in Jeremiah's day. It sounds like you are still wanting to claim that Gen.49:10 promise being in Jerusalem when it is not.

 

God's Birthright, excluding the care of the law and screptre rule, went to Joseph's sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, per 1 Chron.5. Ephraim became the reigning tribe over the ten tribes of the northern kingdom of Israel, which God scattered among the nations, with their still being scattered today. Do you really think God removed His Birthright given to Joseph's sons sometime later, and now it's all back with the house of Judah at Jerusalem today? You'd be very much in error to think that.

[Salty]

 

Salty

 

I think you well know what I was referring to when I was speaking about the rule of the house of David in Jerusalem ending in Jeremiah's day. It sounds like you are still wanting to claim that Gen.49:10 promise being in Jerusalem when it is not.

 

 

So Genesis 48 and 49 are already fulfilled?

 

You seem to keep missing this .....Third time I'm posting this

And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the LAST DAYS” (Genesis 49:1).

 

 Do you really think God removed His Birthright given to Joseph's sons sometime later, and now it's all back with the house of Judah at Jerusalem today? You'd be very much in error to think that.

 

 

Really lets test it.

 

God had other lands predestined for the House of Israel outside the Middle East. The Appointed Place and the land of Israel are two totally different geographical locations.

 

"The children you will have, after you have lost the others, will say again in your ears, 'The place is too small for me; give me a place where I may dwell'" (Isaiah 49:20).

 

“Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well: whose branches run over the wall” (Genesis 49:22).

A wall is a boundary line. Ephraim and Manasseh would extend beyond the boundaries of Israel.

 

“And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed” (Genesis 28:14).

 

As you can see we get a picture of a migrating, colonizing people. The land of Canaan was the port-of-departure for the House of Israel.

 

Isaiah 54 sheds more light on this subject:

 

“Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate [House of Israel] than the children of the married wife, [Judah] saith the LORD. (2) Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes; (3) For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.”

 

Whats he talking about? world wide expansion

 

This may come as a surprise to you, but, there may be only one “Holy Land” however, there are several “Promised Lands.” The land of Canaan was not the only territory promised to Israel. The Appointed Place is every much a land promised to Israel as is Canaan -- and it’s theirs to keep forever.

 

Understanding Holy Land and Appointed Lands

 

After the Assyrian captivity. God led the 10 tribes from Assyria into the “wilderness” (Hosea 2:14) where they would “renew their strength” (Isaiah 41:1) in a place where “never mankind dwelt” (II Esdras 13:39-45). There they would find “grace in the wilderness” and “rest” (Jeremiah 31:1-2). A place where Israel will “sing” and “praise” the LORD (Isaiah 42:10-12). There God would plead with them “face to face” and be brought into “…the bond of the covenant” (Ezekiel 20:33-37). The “covenant” spoken of here is the “new covenant” (Jeremiah 31:31).

 

Israel would receive the new covenant while in the wilderness. There, the population of Israel would grow, “…be thou the mother of thousands of millions” (Genesis 24:60). In exile the House of Israel’s name would be changed, “and thou shalt be called by a new name” (Isaiah 62:2). Judah’s name has never changed.

 

The “Wilderness” and the “Appointed Place” are one and the same. There the birthrights would find their fulfillment -- an impossible task while in the land of Canaan.

 

The birthright described in the Abrahamic Covenant states: “That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;” (Genesis 22:17). The state of Israel, roughly the size of New Jersey, simply cannot handle those kinds of numbers -- even with the boundaries expanded during the Millennium.

 

During the Millennium only a small percentage of Israelites actually return to Canaan. “…and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion” (Jeremiah 3:14). The majority of Israelites will remain in the Appointed Place throughout the Millennium and go year-to-year to pay homage to God as mentioned in Zechariah 14:16. A similar statement can be found in Isaiah 10:22:

 

“For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return and the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.”

 

 

I get it now, you actually DO think today's Jerusalem has all those prophecies fulfilled in it, when it clearly does not!

 

There is NO king of the house of David sitting upon a throne in today's Jerusalem. And if you think the coming Antichrist as king there in the near future will somehow fulfill that promise, then you are as deceived as the Orthodox unbelieving Jews are about what's getting ready to happen there.

 

Lot of OT prophecy about the RETURN of the ten lost tribes of Israel, joined back to the holy land of promise, WITH the house of Judah. Ezekiel 37 is one of many Bible references to that future event.

 

As of right now, the majority of the ten tribes do not even know who they are. That will change at Christ's return. In the Book of Amos God said He will sift them like corn in a sieve, and not the least grain will fall to the ground.

 

There will be no Salvation of Judah without the ten tribes joined with them by Christ Jesus.

 

But today, among the deceived in Jerusalem, they think they're meant to rule the world, and are preparing for a king to come to help them do that, they think. Problem is, the one they will receive won't be The Messiah, but a fake like my Lord Jesus forewarned His faithful servants who heed His Word.

 

 

As for the Isaiah 54 prophecy, you have the time for that wrong too.

 

Luke 23

²⁷ And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.

²⁸ But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

²⁹ For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, "Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck."

³⁰ Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, "Fall on us"; and to the hills, "Cover us."

³¹ For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

 

Rev.6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

 

 

You're just a little bit too early in your timeline thinking with some Bible prophecies, mainly ones regarding the end time events just prior to Christ's return.

[Salty]

Salty

 

 

No you dont get it...

 

Where have I claimed Jerusalem has already fulfilled all prophecies?

 

 

So you clearly are of the opinion that in Israel today there are the house of Israel and the house of Judah and then all of them will return when Christ returns?

 

I didn't say 'all prophecies', but pointed to the ones you mentioned in your post when I said "those prophecies". Even at the end of my post I said you are too early with your timeline thinking regarding 'some' Bible prophecies.

 

Well, this is what our Heavenly Father said about the gathering of the ten tribe house of Israel...

 

Amos 9

⁹ For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

 

¹⁴ And I will bring again the captivity of My people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.

¹⁵ And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God.

 

 

Ezek.37

¹¹ Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

¹² Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O My people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

¹³ And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up out of your graves,

¹⁴ And shall put My spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

 

 

Ezek.37

¹⁶ Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:

¹⁷ And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

¹⁸ And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

¹⁹ Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in Mine hand.

²⁰ And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

²¹ And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

²² And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

 

If what you say about that only means some of them, then that's not the language being used there. And if what you say is true about only a remnant of the house of Israel gathered to the holy land, that would have to exclude those who rejected Christ Jesus.

 

But I believe like our Heavenly Father said, He will gather all the house of Israel (ten tribes), and not the least grain will fall to earth. So I do not limit how that will be established in Christ's Millennium, since changes on this earth will begin at that time, even with God's River and the tree of life manifested there in the holy land.

[Salty]

Thanks Salty, You have given my enough information to conclude you have not really explored this topic in great detail. You viewing this only from one angle and not collectively

 

Ill start first with Amos 9: 9-15 which you have cited

 

Amos 9: 9

After God dispersed the northern ten tribes He "planted" and "sowed" His people Israel, as Hosea notes: "I will SOW her unto Me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to [them which were] not My people, thou [art] My people; and they shall say, [Thou art] my God" (Hosea 2:23). This was so God could have mercy on Israel, and at some LATER DATE call them His people once again. They would then say -- "Thou art my God"!

 

God"planted" and "sowed" His people Israel, which means He honored His covenant with Abraham by multiplying Abraham's seed as the stars of heaven and as the sand which is upon the seashore: "That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies"

Amos 9:14-15 – corresponds with Jeremiah 3:14, during the Millennium only a small percentage of Israelites actually return to Canaan. “…and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion” (). The majority of Israelites will remain in the Appointed Place throughout the Millennium and go year-to-year to pay homage to God as mentioned in Zechariah 14:16. A similar statement can be found in Isaiah 10:22

 

The realization with which you need to come to grips with is the Magnitude of how large the ten tribes are in population size, it is impossible for the entire population of the 10 tribes to all fit into the holy land which will extend from the nile to the euphraties , representives of each lost 10 tribes will dwell and live  in the holy place but God also gave a double blessing to the 10 tribes that they are to inherit more land outside of the middle east, their Appointed places

 

2 Samuel 7:10 "And move no more" means that they will still posses their appointed places during the Millennium.

 

The population of Israel would grow to a point that they would need more lands to hold their numbers. Physical Israel was predestined to expand worldwide. I’ve provided you proof of this.

 

Furthermore, the most natural and credible reading of the prophecies in Genesis indicates that Israel would eventually grow in numbers to become twelve separate and distinct nations or kingdoms, each with their own king. For example, Genesis 17:5-6 states, “Nor shall your name any longer be Abram [high, exalted father]; but your name shall be Abraham [father of a multitude], for I have made you the father of many nations. And I will make you exceedingly fruitful and I will make nations (NOT ONE NATION BUT MANY NATIONS) of you, and kings will come from you”

 

Ezek.37 11-22

When you read this chapter you’ll see that the “dry bones” are resurrected “and I’ll put my spirit in you,” The House Of Israel is to be Christianized, before the two sticks are joined together. The house of Israel would accept Christianity as their religion while in exile BEFORE being reunited with Judah. This corresponds with

 

Hosea 1:10-11,

Isaiah 54 and

Jeremiah 31:31-33

 

Judah returning to the holy lands in 1948 was Bible prophecy per Jeremiah 24. But it only involves a remnant of the house of Judah

 

 

Nowhere does that imply that the house of Judah only gathered first, and then the house of Israel later.

 

 

 

There is every indication that the Restoration comes in stages.

 

The Prophets collectively witness to a specific scenario of events leading up to the End. First, Jews (descendants of Judah -- Judahites) return to the Land, prior to the period of Messiah and the full Restoration.

 

Judah, Jerusalem becomes a focal point of world conflict in the Middle East (Micah 5:7-10; Zech 8; 9:10).

 

House of Israel on the other hand:-

Matthew 24:31: "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

 

The Messiah was referring to Isaiah 27:13; “And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.”

 

It is a bit hard to imagine that this trumpet’s reverberation has already happened -- especially if you want to persist  with Nowhere does that imply that the house of Judah only gathered first, and then the house of Israel later. It would then mean that the Israeli state today represents all Israelite tribes.  However Matthew says that this is immediately after the tribulation of those days (Matthew 24:29), so it cannot be pre-tribulation of all the tribes starting to join together with Judah.

 

Further Jacob’s twelve sons became progenitors of twelve separate and distinctive tribes. These tribes even have entirely separate and distinctive prophecies relating to their individual futures in the “latter days” (Genesis 49; Deuteronomy 33), indicating their continuing separateness throughout this age.

 

Lastly  from Isaiah it will be the Messiah, son of David, who will regather the exiles of the house of Israel Israel.

The Judahites are already starting to regather without the Messiah, it is only the House of Israel that is regathered BY the Messiah

.

If what you say about that only means some of them, then that's not the language being used there. And if what you say is true about only a remnant of the house of Israel gathered to the holy land, that would have to exclude those who rejected Christ Jesus.

 

 

Yes I’m afraid it is the language being used there, it’s your concept that isn’t.

 

The Abrahamic Covenant is based on “I will.” Obedience, or lack thereof to faith, does not come into play.

 

Jeremiah 3:14-Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion: Are we meant to ignore this verse as it conflicts with your concept?

 

Judah went into exile in 70 AD in unbelief and they returned in 1948 in unbelief. Israel on the other hand went into exile in 721 BC, would accept the New Covenant (for I am married unto you – by accepting Jesus) while in exile and then return to the land of Israel at the beginning of the Millennium as Christians, some to dwell in the holy land from each tribe of the 10 lost tribes and the majority of them to dwell in their appointed places 2 Samuel 7:10 "And move no more" means that they will still posses their appointed places ALSO during the Millennium.

 

Further God has another surprised for the House of Israel

Mind blowing stuff

 

..the time shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my [shekinah] glory. And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them to the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tuval, and Yavan, to the distant islands, that have not heard my fame, and have not seen my [shekinah] glory; and they shall declare my glory among the nations. And they shall bring all your brethren out of all the nations for an offering to the LORD upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon fleet camels, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, says the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD. And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, says the LORD. For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. (Isaiah 66:18-22)

 

On the basis of this passage, that not only will Israelites who became "lost" over the years through capture, selling into slavery, and forcible conversion into Christianity which history confirms return in the days of the Messiah, but at that time, he will also be able to tell them from which Tribe they originally stem from.

 

The gentile nations will bring their Isrealite inhabitants to the king Messiah as a present. These Israelites, because they will be sceptical about their Hebrew origin, will not want to appear before the Messiah, and will prefer instead, to go their own ways. At that point the Messiah will identify them individually, saying: "This one is a Yisrael [israelite], this one a Cohen [descendant of the priestly line], and this one a Levi [Levite]!"

 

The Messiah will also identify the Gentiles who will bring the Israelites back , thinking themselves as gentiles. He will identify their origins as either Cohanim [Priests], Levites, or Yisraelites, and will even accept them accordingly for service in the Beth haMikdash [Holy Temple]!!!!

 

I realize a lot more about prophecy regarding the ten tribes than you think. But is this the place to discuss that??

 

Only a remnant of the house of Judah returned to Jerusalem/Judea from the 70 years Babylon captivity, and still only remnants of them are returning today. Their situation is a similar condition as the ten tribes, as a great multitude, and they will not all return during this present world prior to Christ's coming. So from the start, I want to make sure you don't think they all will, for that idea goes directly against the joining of the two sticks prophecy and Christ's gathering them on the day of The Lord.

 

So on the day of Christ's coming and gathering of His saints, how many of the 'asleep' saints do you think there are that He will bring with Him to Jerusalem? Have you even begun to imagine how many that would be also? What did Enoch say? ten thousands of His saints? Does that mean He will only gather them with the 144,000 of Rev.7 to Jerusalem? If so, then why is the "great multitude" of Rev.7:9 that can't be numbered is shown before His throne after His return?

 

 

Rev.7

⁹ After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

 

 

That is how I interpret those verses you quote, like the Jer.3:14 verse. That is specifically for the saints who will reign with Him in the holy city, and it will include believers out of all nations and peoples. It does not mean the multitudes of the two houses are not gathered back to the holy land also.

 

 

As for Amos 9:9, I don't see where you actually quoted it, much less addressed it...

 

Amos 9

⁹ For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

 

You instead went into matters from Hosea instead of addressing that Amos 9:9 verse. To me, that "yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth" is all inclusive, the sifting being specifically ten tribe Israelites out of all nations.

 

Recall Romans 9 where Apostle Paul was quoting Hosea to Christ's Church in Rome. I well realize that is not only about the ten tribes, but about the faithful of Christ's Church, both Israelite and Gentile believers.

[ARGOSY]

ARGOSY

 

Time to wrap things up here, I have dialogued enough to gather information on your position, which I find rather confusing, conflicting and contradicting 

 

To start from this position….

4) Amos 9 was specifically referring to the "planting" of Israel on the day of the Lord, by God.  This affirms my point that this current Israel has not been planted by God, but by the plans of man

 

 

….to this postion below….

 

But we are in partial agreement, I believe God allows (and prophesied) the current gathering of "blind" Israel to bring them to repentance at the time of the true and complete gathering of Israel, so our ideas are very close. 

 

 

….Now you either believe Israel today is a man made invention or God allows the gathering of “blind” Israel, so if God wills it then it cant be a man made invention.

 

You cant have it both ways….so at some stage you have changed your position on this, and one ends up shadow boxing

 

See heres your problem

 

“And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, (2) And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul (3) That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee” (Deuteronomy 30:1-3).

 

 

Judah did not fulfill this prophecy. The Jews never returned to God before 1948 “…with all thine heart, and with all thine soul…” -- they never returned as a converted, repentant people prior to 1948. Judah went into exile in 70 AD in unbelief and they returned in 1948 in unbelief.

 

The House of Israel on the other hand went into exile in 721 BC, and would accept the New Covenant while in exile and then return to the land of Israel at the beginning of the Millennium as Christians. And this is what Deuteronomy 30 is speaking of. Judah will fulfill this prophecy later.

 

First: Exile.

Second: A spiritual return to God while in exile, “I will put my spirit within you…” (Ezekiel 36:27). Only Christians can receive God’s spirit.

Third: A return to the land of Israel after exile and spiritual rebirth. This is exactly what Hosea said would happen. The only prophecy that remains to be fulfilled is the return from exile at the onset of the Millennium.

 

Ezekiel 37, Isaiah 54 and Hosea 1 cite the same stages.

 

Judah wasn’t exiled they were scattered, House of Israel was exiled and will remain so until Jesus returns.

 

Now the re-establishment of 1948 is God willed as prophesied which you clearly agree with now the current gathering of "blind" Israel  now you obviously come to this conclusion or agreement through a prophesy you agreed with.

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Now this boggles my mind

 

Because if you agree to the now the current gathering of "blind" Israel  and then to bring them to repentance at the time of the true and complete gathering of Israel  and then say the 6 DAY WAR is not miraculous…one must then conclude God had no hand in this war????

 

But God must have had a hand in order for his prophecies to be fulfilled such as to bring them to repentance at the time of the true and complete gathering of Israel

So if God had a hand in the 6 day war then that must be miraculous as anything God does is miraculous. Infact one then must conclude that any war waged against Israel God must have a hand in it to defend Israel until certain prophecies are fulfilled or busy fulfilling certain prophecies in the process. Not so?

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Now I have already  shown you where you have only accepted a one sided view, that it was ONLY Israel that placed the Economic Embargo on Palestine, which was not true.Falsifying history.

 

Again this rears its ugly head:-

New historians said the refugees were chased out or expelled, your argument is with that long list of Jewish historians, not with me. It appears the west has been duped by a false history to make it look like Israel was weak and unsupported by the west , when the reality is vastly different.

 

 

Well of cause my argument is with you, you’re the one believing and using their rebuttles? it is your belief I am arguing with not so?…..You are trying to find an escape goat in order I don’t challenge you further on this…again shadow boxing.

 

Perhaps you missed this or refused to read this or simply refuse to know the truth….MY friend IM ACTUALLY QUOTING ARABS AS MY MINE WITNESS

 

I’m afraid you must concede at this point

Arabs fled their homes in response to the urging, or even the orders and threats, of Arab politicians and/or military commanders.

  

Jamal Husseini, the Acting Chairman for the Arab Higher Committee for Palestine

 

The Arabs did not want to submit to a truce. They rather preferred to abandon their homes, their belongings and everything they possessed in the world and leave the town. This is in fact what they did.

 

Arab National Committee of Haifa asserted in a memorandum submitted to the governments of the Arab states that

 

The removal of the Arab inhabitants... was voluntary and was carried out at our request... The Arab delegation proudly asked for the evacuation of the Arabs and their removal to the neighboring Arab countries.... We are very glad to state that the Arabs guarded their honour and traditions with pride and greatness.... When the [Arab]delegation entered the conference room [for negotiations with the Jewish authorities in Haifa] it proudly refused to sign the truce and asked that the evacuation of the Arab population and their transfer to neighboring Arab countries be facilitated.

 

Palestinian Arab newspaper Falastin

The Arab states which had encouraged the Palestinian Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies, have failed to keep their promise to help these refugees

 

Just a tip, I think you should read wikipedias disclaimer before you rely heavily on its content.

 

 

Just to repeat myself I’m quoted ARABS, what they said is historical, it is a fact, it was said, its what happened, it was recorded….You cannot ignore this, it happened.

 

Yes in modern warfare wars are won by air superiority, not by rifles.

 

Really, Vietnam? IRAQ? AFGAN?

 

Also again boggles my mind how does one capture land with an aircraft?

 

Of course Israel was right to defend itself in 1948, what I objected to was chasing people from their homes and refusing 700 000 people back into their homes after the war. Neither were they paid out for their vacant homes, the were civilians that did not participate in the war and yet their homes were stolen from them.

 

 

That's lovely and fluffy but God says otherwise In Deuteronomy 23:6, YEHOVAH God commanded Israel that they should not seek the peace or the prosperity of the Ammonites and the Moabites right up to the end of the age. Ezra 9:12 indicates similar treatment of the non-Israelites in the land.

 

You criticise my use of Wikipedia, yet all those Jewish historians actually do exist and their writings are all over the internet and not just on Wikipedia. If you deny those historians exist just because Wikipedia mentions them.... well they obviously do exist and you are revealing a head-in -the-sand approach to the real truth.

 

I find no contradiction in my view that a sinful Israel (or Judah as you say) regathers to Israel under their own strength, and God allows and also predicts this will happen.  Furthermore just like God uses the tragedies in our life for His good purposes, so God will use this sinful regathering to bring Israel (and/or Judah) into repentance.  Just because God allows this, and God will use this for good, does not mean God miraculously supports Israel during this time. In fact God will send a northern army against them (Joel 2  Ezekiel 38/39)

 

I completely agree with you that the majority of the Arabs left their homes during the war , but those Jewish historians also describe a deliberate policy to permanently chase those that remained out of their homes as well. This is known as the PLAN DALET which has been historically verified. 

 

On the one hand you are claiming that Israel did nothing ruthless to the Palestinians, and on the other hand you seem to be saying that any killing or removal of Palestinians is biblically ok. I disagree, over and above God's instruction to a cleansed Israel to clear the land, God forced Israel to keep any agreements made with the inhabitants. There has been no prophet to current sinful Israel telling them to cleanse the land again, and Israel has broken many agreements with the Palestinians and Arab nations.

[Salty]

Salty

 

Amos 9

9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

 

You instead went into matters from Hosea instead of addressing that Amos 9:9 verse. To me, that "yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth" is all inclusive, the sifting being specifically ten tribe Israelites out of all nations.

 

 

Then you need to reread what I said, I did address it. For your rendering of All the population of the Israelites every single one of them to eventually reside in the land of Israel and no longer ALSO reside in their appointed places breaks God's Abrahamic covenant..... where they shell move no more.

 

The reason why I got into this salty was to explain the process involved to ARGOSY that God has a process in place with reuniting his people Israel, this process is is significant as the entire process deals with how holy the Land of Israel is and why the Antichrist attacks it.... this has nothing to do with sacrificing animals and it is not what enrages the Antichrist 

 

Well, you actually did not address the specific Amos 9:9 verse which shows all of the house of Israel inclusive gathered, but instead Amos 9:14-15 in conjunction with Jer.3:14.

 

We'll just have to disagree then, because I interpret Jer.3:14 to be mainly about His elect that will reign with Him, and not about all the seed of Israel, while it does not deny the gathering of all the house of Israel per Amos 9:9. If those two verses seem to conflict with each other, then it means one has not properly understood them, because neither of those two verses can conflict with each other. Per your view they do conflict with each other.