3 STAGES OF ROME

[ARGOSY]

 

[Dan 2:43 NKJV] "As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay.

 

It seems you're reading a religious overtone into the clay, and thus trying to fit in the papacy or islam. I think the more scripturally supported view is that the clay is simply people.

 

 

Religious overtone or not, I'm sure we agree the fourth kingdom is Rome, and Rome divided into two divisions after the fall of Rome. These two divisions used the same two Roman capitals of Rome and Istanbul.  Whether "peoples" are involved depends on which translation you use and I am open to the clay referring to people, but clay is also a symbol of religion elsewhere in the bible. Whichever way we look at the clay, the two feet (Papal Europe and Turkey) are in power until the second coming. Some translations dont mention "people" in the verse.

 

42 And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay

 

Thanks for your thoughts on the clay, definitely something to consider.

[Persuaded]

"People" is in the original text, and folks have made a choice to render it "marriage" to make the sentence easier to read (have I mentioned that I dislike paraphrases?).

 

I guess I don't see evidence, in either the statue or the world today, that the papal and ottoman empires are still around. I see pieces of each in all of the middle east and europe, and this leads me to think the ten toes/ten horns can be from any part of the whole Roman empire. In a sense, the ten toes reinforces this- 5 toes from each foot!

 

The roman church today does undoubtedly wield significant influence, but it isn't a world government or empire. At best, it might be a toe or a horn; heck, one of its members may even be the little horn.

 

When you (I won't be here   ) see the ten, there will be no need for conjecture.

[Spock]

@Argosy,

I like your harmonization of it all

@ Spock

lol...I'm just exploring views...I'm a little tied up this weekend but Ill squeeze some time in on Sunday to put some ideas forward why Rome and Greece could be a bit awkward in the prophecy...it's always good to review things

Okay, sounds good. I'm busy too playing golf. Ha

I'm glad you didn't misinterpret my "stern" words and saw humor in them. You rock.

Spock out

By the way, great maps. Theses visuals help.

[Sister]

Please refer to my post 57 of the 5th beast thread where I spell out my logic regarding the split empire of Rome. There are two feet, and this empire is then described as a divided empire.  And so I prefer the Europe/Turkey view because the empire was immediately successive to the Roman Empire, retained the same two capital cities, and was a divided empire. Additionally clay is a symbol of true religion and brittle clay therefore a symbol of false religion, and I see an emphasis on false religion ruling the split empire.  Thus on 4 grounds I prefer the Europe/Turkey view to your British Empire view, unless you can show my I should prefer your British Empire view.

 

 

 

Thanks... looking forward to your response.

 

Hi Argosy, I'm sorry, I could not find that thread you meantioned.

 

All I am trying to point out here, is that the image symbolises the ruling kingdoms starting from Babylon (the head), all the way down to the last kingdom, the feet, and finally the ten toes.  Not all the empires of the world are mentioned here, just the major ones that play an important role leading to the last one.  We know the legs of iron are Rome because history tells us so.  My main point is why would the powerful British Empire be left out of this whole image?  After all England first claimed Newfoundand, Canada, the Carrabean, and the East coast of America, parts of India, Asia, Egypt, South Africa, and then other parts of Africa, at one point, 1/3 of africans were ruled by the British.  They claimed Australia, Papua New guinea, Faulkland Islands, and many many more..  They control the world banks, which means today they control the USA, and their influence and power is huge.  They have rights to all the gold, silver, copper, iron ore, and diamond mines around the world even today.  They are wealthy in riches and power, yet they are termed by experts as "the invisible empire".  They are so invisible, that the world does not even realise their power and influence, nor has anyone even considered this huge empire in the grand scheme of things, nor in the image of Daniel.  All I do is ask you to consider this empire, and not ignore it.  You would have to do some digging, and find out if the USA really did claim their independence from England, or was it just a smoke screen?  Where do the US tax dollars really go to and where do they really end up?  This is all just to give you an idea that this empire should not be left out of the image, as they are not getting weaker, but more powerful each day and we are in the last days heading towards the ten toes, that last empire.

 

Blessings.

[Persuaded]

The Babylonian, Medio Persian, Greek, and Roman empires weren't shadow empires, and there's nothing in scripture to suggest that the feet and toes are anything but "real" and observable kingdoms. That's why I don't like the islam/papacy/power-behind-the-scenes theories. It seems scripture has given us an example of four fore-runners, to indicate the essential attributes of world dominion that simply won't go unnoticed when these scriptures are fulfilled, when God's timing is ripe.

[ARGOSY]

 

Please refer to my post 57 of the 5th beast thread where I spell out my logic regarding the split empire of Rome. There are two feet, and this empire is then described as a divided empire.  And so I prefer the Europe/Turkey view because the empire was immediately successive to the Roman Empire, retained the same two capital cities, and was a divided empire. Additionally clay is a symbol of true religion and brittle clay therefore a symbol of false religion, and I see an emphasis on false religion ruling the split empire.  Thus on 4 grounds I prefer the Europe/Turkey view to your British Empire view, unless you can show my I should prefer your British Empire view.

 

 

 

Thanks... looking forward to your response.

 

Hi Argosy, I'm sorry, I could not find that thread you meantioned.

 

All I am trying to point out here, is that the image symbolises the ruling kingdoms starting from Babylon (the head), all the way down to the last kingdom, the feet, and finally the ten toes.  Not all the empires of the world are mentioned here, just the major ones that play an important role leading to the last one.  We know the legs of iron are Rome because history tells us so.  My main point is why would the powerful British Empire be left out of this whole image?  After all England first claimed Newfoundand, Canada, the Carrabean, and the East coast of America, parts of India, Asia, Egypt, South Africa, and then other parts of Africa, at one point, 1/3 of africans were ruled by the British.  They claimed Australia, Papua New guinea, Faulkland Islands, and many many more..  They control the world banks, which means today they control the USA, and their influence and power is huge.  They have rights to all the gold, silver, copper, iron ore, and diamond mines around the world even today.  They are wealthy in riches and power, yet they are termed by experts as "the invisible empire".  They are so invisible, that the world does not even realise their power and influence, nor has anyone even considered this huge empire in the grand scheme of things, nor in the image of Daniel.  All I do is ask you to consider this empire, and not ignore it.  You would have to do some digging, and find out if the USA really did claim their independence from England, or was it just a smoke screen?  Where do the US tax dollars really go to and where do they really end up?  This is all just to give you an idea that this empire should not be left out of the image, as they are not getting weaker, but more powerful each day and we are in the last days heading towards the ten toes, that last empire.

 

Blessings.

 

 

There have been a few great empires in the West since the fall of Rome. France, Spain, Uk, now the USA. Yes the British Empire was possibly the greatest but I just see them all representing Europe. And I believe you have insight to recognise how the USA sometimes acts on behalf of Europe. Its Europe's neighbour (the Islamic Middle East) that is a loose cannon, unpredictable and dangerous. Yet its the USA that spends its hard earned wealth sending out armies to weaken Europe's neighbours for a take-over. 

 

Regardless of the strength of the British Empire, to defend your view you need to match fulfilments with scripture.  

My view is that Daniel 2 refers to a split empire... (v41) ... you have not showed how your view has a split empire, or else how you view v41

My view shows that the split empire followed the iron empire. (Consecutive) . You need to show why consecutiveness is irrelevant in Daniel 2, or how the British Empire was consecutive

My view shows how the iron continued on into the two feet empire (the same territory and capital cities), you need to show why there is still Roman iron in the British Empire

My view attempts to explain the clay.

 

So its nice to put forward a view, but I like to face each exact fact in a prophecy for a complete fit. Unfortunately this can lead to lengthy debates which even I don't like, but I feel you need a little more work in matching your view with the wording of the prophecy.

[ARGOSY]

 

Hi Argosy, I'm sorry, I could not find that thread you meantioned.

 

 

 

Its in the Eschatology sub-forum.  Here's the link:   

[Sister]

 

 

 

 

 

There have been a few great empires in the West since the fall of Rome. France, Spain, Uk, now the USA. Yes the British Empire was possibly the greatest but I just see them all representing Europe. And I believe you have insight to recognise how the USA sometimes acts on behalf of Europe. Its Europe's neighbour (the Islamic Middle East) that is a loose cannon, unpredictable and dangerous. Yet its the USA that spends its hard earned wealth sending out armies to weaken Europe's neighbours for a take-over. 

 

Regardless of the strength of the British Empire, to defend your view you need to match fulfilments with scripture.  

My view is that Daniel 2 refers to a split empire... (v41) ... you have not showed how your view has a split empire, or else how you view v41

My view shows that the split empire followed the iron empire. (Consecutive) . You need to show why consecutiveness is irrelevant in Daniel 2, or how the British Empire was consecutive

My view shows how the iron continued on into the two feet empire (the same territory and capital cities), you need to show why there is still Roman iron in the British Empire

My view attempts to explain the clay.

 

So its nice to put forward a view, but I like to face each exact fact in a prophecy for a complete fit. Unfortunately this can lead to lengthy debates which even I don't like, but I feel you need a little more work in matching your view with the wording of the prophecy.

 

 

Hello Argosi

 

The rule of the Roman empire ended at the finish of the legs.  The next empire shows us the feet mixed with iron and clay.  It's obvious to me that this next empire came out of Rome as it has iron in it still.  The British empire came out of Rome, but it is a modern type of roman system.  It is a mixed kingdom, hence the iron and the clay.  Iron is strong and clay is weak.  This empire consists of both, strong nations and weak nations. 

 

Daniel 2:41   And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

Daniel 2:42   And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

 

You said earlier that clay is a symbol for religion, but the scripture has already given us the definition of the clay - iron meaning strong, and clay meaning broken not religion.  So the feet would be a "mixed kingdom"  to me, this is obvious because the British empire consists of strong and weak nations. 

 

Daniel 2:43   And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

 

This kingdom consists of iron and clay.  Iron and clay do not stick,  but they are of this same kingdom. The iron would be the strength of who is running this kingdom over it's weaker counterparts, ...the other nations of it's own empire.

 

It's this empire, the feet, a mixed empire, that will reform when it comes to the toes.  It will have a board of 10 kings (leaders of 10 nations) from within it's own empire.  These 10 will be the chief of staff so to speak, and will change laws, and times, to bring in a new world order.  These are are today, and will soon declare themselves and show who they are, they will rule for a short time on their own, and their purpose is to prepare the way for a king to rule over them and be their spokesman, this would be the son of perdition.  I believe this last kingdom is the British empire, who control most of the wealth and power through their world banking system.  I believe it is them that cause wars to bring down nations, and spread propoganda, only so they can go in there as supposed peace keepers, to give aid and lend financial assistance, earning more wealth and power to themselves, gaining more control and territories by dictating the way those war torn countries are run to suit their own agenda.

[ARGOSY]

 

 

 

 

 

 

There have been a few great empires in the West since the fall of Rome. France, Spain, Uk, now the USA. Yes the British Empire was possibly the greatest but I just see them all representing Europe. And I believe you have insight to recognise how the USA sometimes acts on behalf of Europe. Its Europe's neighbour (the Islamic Middle East) that is a loose cannon, unpredictable and dangerous. Yet its the USA that spends its hard earned wealth sending out armies to weaken Europe's neighbours for a take-over. 

 

Regardless of the strength of the British Empire, to defend your view you need to match fulfilments with scripture.  

My view is that Daniel 2 refers to a split empire... (v41) ... you have not showed how your view has a split empire, or else how you view v41

My view shows that the split empire followed the iron empire. (Consecutive) . You need to show why consecutiveness is irrelevant in Daniel 2, or how the British Empire was consecutive

My view shows how the iron continued on into the two feet empire (the same territory and capital cities), you need to show why there is still Roman iron in the British Empire

My view attempts to explain the clay.

 

So its nice to put forward a view, but I like to face each exact fact in a prophecy for a complete fit. Unfortunately this can lead to lengthy debates which even I don't like, but I feel you need a little more work in matching your view with the wording of the prophecy.

 

 

Hello Argosi

 

The rule of the Roman empire ended at the finish of the legs.  The next empire shows us the feet mixed with iron and clay.  It's obvious to me that this next empire came out of Rome as it has iron in it still.  The British empire came out of Rome, but it is a modern type of roman system.  It is a mixed kingdom, hence the iron and the clay.  Iron is strong and clay is weak.  This empire consists of both, strong nations and weak nations. 

 

Daniel 2:41   And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

Daniel 2:42   And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

 

You said earlier that clay is a symbol for religion, but the scripture has already given us the definition of the clay - iron meaning strong, and clay meaning broken not religion.  So the feet would be a "mixed kingdom"  to me, this is obvious because the British empire consists of strong and weak nations. 

 

Daniel 2:43   And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

 

This kingdom consists of iron and clay.  Iron and clay do not stick,  but they are of this same kingdom. The iron would be the strength of who is running this kingdom over it's weaker counterparts, ...the other nations of it's own empire.

 

It's this empire, the feet, a mixed empire, that will reform when it comes to the toes.  It will have a board of 10 kings (leaders of 10 nations) from within it's own empire.  These 10 will be the chief of staff so to speak, and will change laws, and times, to bring in a new world order.  These are are today, and will soon declare themselves and show who they are, they will rule for a short time on their own, and their purpose is to prepare the way for a king to rule over them and be their spokesman, this would be the son of perdition.  I believe this last kingdom is the British empire, who control most of the wealth and power through their world banking system.  I believe it is them that cause wars to bring down nations, and spread propoganda, only so they can go in there as supposed peace keepers, to give aid and lend financial assistance, earning more wealth and power to themselves, gaining more control and territories by dictating the way those war torn countries are run to suit their own agenda.

 

 

Thanks for explaining. I see some truth in what you say, but the other kingdoms are exactly sequential (after you will come another kingdom). And each kingdom conquered the previous, and also dominated the Middle East immediately. The British took some time to do so.

 

Where we do agree is the source of power for the fourth kingdom. The beast is arising via the financial system of the West. Its at the choice of western bankers that this final beast system will establish itself, and the main financial capital of the world is London. So as far as background control I agree with you that's its western bankers pulling the strings. However what may surprise the world is that these bankers are mainly Ashkenazi Jews (Converted Jews that emigrated to Europe from the old Khazar region). Through their historical affinity with the Kurds its entirely possible that these same bankers will control the world through using Papal Europe to set up a Khazar/Kurd Islamic/Jewish superstate in the Middle East. Thus Turkey and the UE will permit Ashkenazi Jews (as you say - British bankers) and Islamic Kurds to join together and have their own superstate in the Middle East.

[Guest Jesse]

Brittain was under the Romans for over 600yrs.

London was originally Londinium.

The decline of the Roman emprire brought forth the british empire.

Google:  Londinium.

 

jesse.