Isaiah 47: is America this present age's Babylon?

[098]

Hi. Thanks Salty. Fun to chat with you. Yes, we have different views. It seems many people have bought into the idea that there will be some sort a dashing wonder character called the Antichrist. I don't see any Biblical scripture that says that. The 'man of sin' is really a term that is sort of the opposite of the 'perfect man'. The body of Christ is being built up into a perfect man by God, with the whole body being a part of the man. One person is metaphorically the leg, another the arm, another the nose, Christ the head, and so forth as the analogy is presented. That the true believers are a part of the body of Christ is generally understood. What people fail to grasp, however, is that the 'man of sin' that is revealed follows this same pattern. The congregations become the man of sin when the Holy Spirit is no longer there, but it is simply a sinful or lost group of persons, rather than some wonder character. Ezekiel 8 that you mentioned simply follows the general theme of Ezekiel, which is to present the fact that the congregations fall out of favor with God as wickedness becomes them. As an Old Testament book, Ezekiel presents Judah (Jerusalem and Israel) as the case where this falling away from God occurs. However, like all Old Testament books, it is pointing to the same case that occurs relating to the church age later on, and specifically towards the end of that church age. The book is written for our benefit (present day Christians).The Old Testament uses parables to do this. Ezekiel's Judah is a picture of the fall of church age congregations. 

[Salty]

Hi. Thanks Salty. Fun to chat with you. Yes, we have different views. It seems many people have bought into the idea that there will be some sort a dashing wonder character called the Antichrist. I don't see any Biblical scripture that says that. The 'man of sin' is really a term that is sort of the opposite of the 'perfect man'. The body of Christ is being built up into a perfect man by God, with the whole body being a part of the man. One person is metaphorically the leg, another the arm, another the nose, Christ the head, and so forth as the analogy is presented. That the true believers are a part of the body of Christ is generally understood. What people fail to grasp, however, is that the 'man of sin' that is revealed follows this same pattern. The congregations become the man of sin when the Holy Spirit is no longer there, but it is simply a sinful or lost group of persons, rather than some wonder character. Ezekiel 8 that you mentioned simply follows the general theme of Ezekiel, which is to present the fact that the congregations fall out of favor with God as wickedness becomes them. As an Old Testament book, Ezekiel presents Judah (Jerusalem and Israel) as the case where this falling away from God occurs. However, like all Old Testament books, it is pointing to the same case that occurs relating to the church age later on, and specifically towards the end of that church age. The book is written for our benefit (present day Christians).The Old Testament uses parables to do this. Ezekiel's Judah is a picture of the fall of church age congregations. 

 

Look at Christ's warning in association with the "abomination of desolation" event in Matt.24:23-26. That is about a specific coming pseudo-Christ to Jerusalem to setup the abomination of the Book of Daniel. Look at Rev.13:11 forward also, because that's the same subject.

[098]

The abomination is simply that the congregations no longer have Christ and his Spirit. This means that they are desolate, meaning without Christ. There is no special meaning beyond this. Matthew 24:23-26 is an excellent illustration of this. The people in the congregations say that they have Christ but do not, and are therefore false prophets. Similarly, there will be those saying I am anointed when they are not. These are false Christs. Matthew says to not pay attention to such foolishness but to simply believe it not. Incidentally, the carcass mentioned right after that is parable language for the dead body of the congregations spiritually speaking.

[Salty]

The abomination is simply that the congregations no longer have Christ and his Spirit. This means that they are desolate, meaning without Christ. There is no special meaning beyond this. Matthew 24:23-26 is an excellent illustration of this. The people in the congregations say that they have Christ but do not, and are therefore false prophets. Similarly, there will be those saying I am anointed when they are not. These are false Christs. Matthew says to not pay attention to such foolishness but to simply believe it not. Incidentally, the carcass mentioned right after that is parable language for the dead body of the congregations spiritually speaking.

 

You're not taking to heart men's tradition that the one withholding, and later removed taken out of the way that Paul spoke of in 2 Thess.2 is The Holy Spirit, do you? That's actually about the Archangel Michael. It's one of the subjects within the Dan.10 chapter. Satan is being withheld back in the heavenly today until the time of the war with Michael in Rev.12:7. Dan.12:1 hints to that war, with Michael standing up (i.e., making a stand).

 

The Holy Spirit is going to remain here on earth all the way through ... the "great tribulation" Jesus taught. Some of His servants have a job to do by The Holy Spirit against Satan's host during the tribulation. God's two witnesses that will appear in Jerusalem per Rev.11 will lead it.

 

Earlier in Matt.24:5 Jesus was speaking of the many that come saying... they are Christ. That's John's "many antichrist" idea.

 

But the Matt.24:23-26 context is different, for it is about a singular coming 'pseudo-Christ'. The KJV phrase "false Christs" there is actually Greek 'psueodchristos', made up of two words, 'pseudo' and 'Christos' which is singular in the Greek. The singular context of the 23 & 26 verses reveal this too. And that is about the part where John said they heard that "antichrist shall come", meaning a singular antichrist, the Antichrist - pseudo-Christ, the one Paul warned of in 2 Thess.2:4, and Jesus warned us of again in Rev.13:11 forward.

 

The main difference between the two, (many antichrists vs. antichrist) is that the many who say they are Christ don't have a show a miracles of deception to back it up. The one in vv.23-26 does, even to the point that if possible, would deceive Christ's own very elect servants.

[OakWood]

 

Hi there. No, Babylon is not America. It might be possible to see what Babylon is by simply reading Revelation 18. Revelation 18 calls Babylon the great city. This is the title given to Jerusalem in Rev 21, and to Sodom and Egypt in Rev 11, and to Ninevah elsewhere, among others. In fact the Bible talks about cities over and over again, and it is simply a parable way of looking at the same group of persons, those persons associated with God himself - they are the city. In fact, Jericho, was the city of palms, meaning of the righteous. Jericho means 'moon' which is a picture of the law of God, the Bible, the lesser light which is a reflection of Christ's light. Jerich had God's law. Yet Jericho's walls (which represent salvation) fell when Joshua (who represents Jesus) and the true believers marched around it. We learn that Babylon's walls fall during the hour of tribulation (which is not a literal hour but a time period). It is the period when God's holy spirit is withdrawn from the congregations and there is not any salvation left there. That is the very reason that Revelation 18 says that the voice of the bridgegroom (that's Jesus') will not be heard there again. It is the very reason that God says in Rev 18 to "come out of her my people". My people means the true believers. The true believers are told to spiritually come out of the fallen or false city.  It is not talking about political nations, like, say, present day America or present day Israel. It is saying that true believers are commanded to come out of the fallen congregations which do not have the holy spirit any longer. In fact, we find that just Lot came out of the city of Sodom before God overthrew the city, another picture of the same event. Noah, in like manner, was delivered in his covenant ark as the flood of destruction took over the not true believers. The religious who perish in Bablylon are pictured by the Pharisees in Jesus' day. They are the wicked generation which never disappears until all these things are accomplished. Fortunately, the true believers, who have been habitually rejected as they bring the truth to congregations, are delivered by God and continue to be saved. It is not a physical political event. It is talking about salvation vs. not. 

 

Glad someone else here besides me understands how God is using Babylon the harlot as a symbolic reference to Jerusalem for the end when the "abomination of desolation" idol is placed there by the coming Antichrist.

 

But you'll find many here that just... don't... like... that kind of association, and are trying to do everything they can to persuade brethren away from the harlotry coming in Jerusalem for the end. Some even want us to believe that today's Israel state is... Christ's Salvation today, when the majority there still reject Jesus of Nazareth as God's Promised Saviour! I refuse to fall away to that ignorance, regardless of where this forum is administered from.

 

 

Babylon is NOT a symbolic reference to Jerusalem. Your viewpoint is completely non-scriptural.

[Salty]

 

 

Hi there. No, Babylon is not America. It might be possible to see what Babylon is by simply reading Revelation 18. Revelation 18 calls Babylon the great city. This is the title given to Jerusalem in Rev 21, and to Sodom and Egypt in Rev 11, and to Ninevah elsewhere, among others. In fact the Bible talks about cities over and over again, and it is simply a parable way of looking at the same group of persons, those persons associated with God himself - they are the city. In fact, Jericho, was the city of palms, meaning of the righteous. Jericho means 'moon' which is a picture of the law of God, the Bible, the lesser light which is a reflection of Christ's light. Jerich had God's law. Yet Jericho's walls (which represent salvation) fell when Joshua (who represents Jesus) and the true believers marched around it. We learn that Babylon's walls fall during the hour of tribulation (which is not a literal hour but a time period). It is the period when God's holy spirit is withdrawn from the congregations and there is not any salvation left there. That is the very reason that Revelation 18 says that the voice of the bridgegroom (that's Jesus') will not be heard there again. It is the very reason that God says in Rev 18 to "come out of her my people". My people means the true believers. The true believers are told to spiritually come out of the fallen or false city.  It is not talking about political nations, like, say, present day America or present day Israel. It is saying that true believers are commanded to come out of the fallen congregations which do not have the holy spirit any longer. In fact, we find that just Lot came out of the city of Sodom before God overthrew the city, another picture of the same event. Noah, in like manner, was delivered in his covenant ark as the flood of destruction took over the not true believers. The religious who perish in Bablylon are pictured by the Pharisees in Jesus' day. They are the wicked generation which never disappears until all these things are accomplished. Fortunately, the true believers, who have been habitually rejected as they bring the truth to congregations, are delivered by God and continue to be saved. It is not a physical political event. It is talking about salvation vs. not. 

 

Glad someone else here besides me understands how God is using Babylon the harlot as a symbolic reference to Jerusalem for the end when the "abomination of desolation" idol is placed there by the coming Antichrist.

 

But you'll find many here that just... don't... like... that kind of association, and are trying to do everything they can to persuade brethren away from the harlotry coming in Jerusalem for the end. Some even want us to believe that today's Israel state is... Christ's Salvation today, when the majority there still reject Jesus of Nazareth as God's Promised Saviour! I refuse to fall away to that ignorance, regardless of where this forum is administered from.

 

 

Babylon is NOT a symbolic reference to Jerusalem. Your viewpoint is completely non-scriptural.

 

 

that's just your opinion, when I have Biblical evidence in Rev.11 that Christ called Jerusalem in the spiritual sense Sodom and Egypt! And The Father in Ezek.16 called Jerusalem a 'harlot' when it went into false worship in the past!

[OakWood]

 

 

 

Hi there. No, Babylon is not America. It might be possible to see what Babylon is by simply reading Revelation 18. Revelation 18 calls Babylon the great city. This is the title given to Jerusalem in Rev 21, and to Sodom and Egypt in Rev 11, and to Ninevah elsewhere, among others. In fact the Bible talks about cities over and over again, and it is simply a parable way of looking at the same group of persons, those persons associated with God himself - they are the city. In fact, Jericho, was the city of palms, meaning of the righteous. Jericho means 'moon' which is a picture of the law of God, the Bible, the lesser light which is a reflection of Christ's light. Jerich had God's law. Yet Jericho's walls (which represent salvation) fell when Joshua (who represents Jesus) and the true believers marched around it. We learn that Babylon's walls fall during the hour of tribulation (which is not a literal hour but a time period). It is the period when God's holy spirit is withdrawn from the congregations and there is not any salvation left there. That is the very reason that Revelation 18 says that the voice of the bridgegroom (that's Jesus') will not be heard there again. It is the very reason that God says in Rev 18 to "come out of her my people". My people means the true believers. The true believers are told to spiritually come out of the fallen or false city.  It is not talking about political nations, like, say, present day America or present day Israel. It is saying that true believers are commanded to come out of the fallen congregations which do not have the holy spirit any longer. In fact, we find that just Lot came out of the city of Sodom before God overthrew the city, another picture of the same event. Noah, in like manner, was delivered in his covenant ark as the flood of destruction took over the not true believers. The religious who perish in Bablylon are pictured by the Pharisees in Jesus' day. They are the wicked generation which never disappears until all these things are accomplished. Fortunately, the true believers, who have been habitually rejected as they bring the truth to congregations, are delivered by God and continue to be saved. It is not a physical political event. It is talking about salvation vs. not. 

 

Glad someone else here besides me understands how God is using Babylon the harlot as a symbolic reference to Jerusalem for the end when the "abomination of desolation" idol is placed there by the coming Antichrist.

 

But you'll find many here that just... don't... like... that kind of association, and are trying to do everything they can to persuade brethren away from the harlotry coming in Jerusalem for the end. Some even want us to believe that today's Israel state is... Christ's Salvation today, when the majority there still reject Jesus of Nazareth as God's Promised Saviour! I refuse to fall away to that ignorance, regardless of where this forum is administered from.

 

 

Babylon is NOT a symbolic reference to Jerusalem. Your viewpoint is completely non-scriptural.

 

 

that's just your opinion, when I have Biblical evidence in Rev.11 that Christ called Jerusalem in the spiritual sense Sodom and Egypt! And The Father in Ezek.16 called Jerusalem a 'harlot' when it went into false worship in the past!

 

 

No - it's funny how when somebody presents evidence that conflicts with yours you call it 'opinion' or 'man-made doctrine' but when you yourself uses 'man-made doctrine' such as 'supercessionism' you refer to it as evidence.

 

Of course that's not to say that you're wrong, but if you are right then you are disagreeing with nearly everybody here on Worthy in which case you must be privy to revelations from God that the rest of us aren't!

[Salty]

The abomination is simply that the congregations no longer have Christ and his Spirit. This means that they are desolate, meaning without Christ. There is no special meaning beyond this. Matthew 24:23-26 is an excellent illustration of this. The people in the congregations say that they have Christ but do not, and are therefore false prophets. Similarly, there will be those saying I am anointed when they are not. These are false Christs. Matthew says to not pay attention to such foolishness but to simply believe it not. Incidentally, the carcass mentioned right after that is parable language for the dead body of the congregations spiritually speaking.

 

The Matt.24:23-26 Scripture by my Lord Jesus is an excellent example of exactly how... the coming Antichrist is going to work false worship of himself in Jerusalem. Nothing else to it.

[Salty]

 

that's just your opinion, when I have Biblical evidence in Rev.11 that Christ called Jerusalem in the spiritual sense Sodom and Egypt! And The Father in Ezek.16 called Jerusalem a 'harlot' when it went into false worship in the past!

 

 

What Biblical evidence?

 

Yes Christ called Jerusalem in the spiritual sense Sodom and Egypt because they are sisters of sisters, where do you see the words Babylon in the same verse? 

 

Yes Ezek 16 called jerusalem a harlot...but did Ezek call Jerusalem the mother of harlots? At the most Jerusalem has been called daughter of a harlot

 

 

 

You're so close to admitting it, but you still won't, when our Heavenly Father and His Son has shown us how Jerusalem during the tribulation Jesus pointed to with the AOD is going to fall into the worst kind of false idol worship this world has seen, or will ever see. The "great city" in Revelation is Jerusalem and Babylon is used as spiritual symbol for it, just as the label of "harlot" and "whore" is symbolic for that "great city". 

[Salty]

 

 

No - it's funny how when somebody presents evidence that conflicts with yours you call it 'opinion' or 'man-made doctrine' but when you yourself uses 'man-made doctrine' such as 'supercessionism' you refer to it as evidence.

 

Of course that's not to say that you're wrong, but if you are right then you are disagreeing with nearly everybody here on Worthy in which case you must be privy to revelations from God that the rest of us aren't!

 

 

Where did I ever use any supercessionism idea? If you're speaking of what Apostle Paul said in Rom.9 ...

 

⁸ That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

... then that is basic Christianity 101. The "children of the promise" are "counted for the seed".

 

You obviously don't understand that means even the seed of Israel MUST... confess Jesus Christ as their Saviour by Faith, in order to be saved. A remnant of the seed of Israel already has done that, even beginning in Paul's days!

 

When God removes the blindness He put on the unbelieving Jews, that's when it will be their time to believe, or perish. No one will make it into God's Eternal Kingdom after The Judgment without believing on Jesus Christ as The Saviour.

 

And yes, it will be funny to see this present attempt to establish God's Kingdom on earth by the unbelieving Jews who still reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ - Messiah, when Christ comes to wipe it off the earth and setup His Kingdom instead.