Where is the Body of Christ in the Millennium?

[Marilyn C]

Hi Retrobyter,

 

Now you said to Sister -
 

 

`Sure, the saints will "meet the Lord in the air," but ... where do we go from there? We CERTAINLY do not go to “heaven!” Yeshua` just made the trip BACK to earth! Why would He turn around and go back to “heaven?!” That’s just a wasted trip. There’s no reason to come “pick us up” when God can protect us THROUGH the “tribulation” just fine!`

 

Why indeed would the Lord make the trip in the first place. We are now moving into opening up the eternal purposes of God. The Lord descends to connect with the mature Body of Christ who then escort Him to His own throne.

 

`to meet the Lord,` (1 Thess. 4: 17) This word `meet` has the connotation of escorting someone to their destination.

 

`He who overcomes I (Jesus) will grant him to sit with Me on My throne,...` (Rev. 3: 21)

 

Thus we see the Body of Christ crowned & on thrones around Christ`s throne in the third heaven.

 

`And around the throne were 24 thrones & upon the thrones I saw 24 elders sitting clothed in white garments, & golden crowns on their heads.` (Rev. 4: 4)

 

So why is the Body of Christ in the third heaven during the tribulation period. There are very good reasons for this. I will let you have time to search this out as the Lord has shown the Body of Christ their special calling, appointed responsibility.

 

Marilyn.

 

 

PS. Did you read my answer to you on another question - #156?

Edited October 31, 2014 by Marilyn C

[Marilyn C]

Hi Sister,

 

Thank you for your good comments about our hope & inheritance, calling & position. I have been staying at a friends place & have not been able to get back to you. These are some of my thoughts in our discussion.

 

Our hope - is to be resurrected & like Christ, & we are heirs with Christ, with an inheritance `imperishable & undefiled...`(1 Peter 1: 4)

 

Our calling/ appointment is to be King Priests (Rev. 1: 6) the `on top calling,` as Paul says.

 

`I press on toward the goal for the prize of the on top call of God in Christ.` (Phil. 3: 14)

 

 

While you are looking for those other scriptures concerning where we are in the Millennium, maybe you would also like to think on the question I gave Retro.

If the Body of Christ is in the 3rd heaven in the tribulation, then what is it`s purpose there?

 

Blessings, Marilyn.

[Sister]

Shalom Retrobyter.

 

I see you are most passionate about this subject.

This is what I have observed;

 

Every saved soul had a different measure of the holy spirit in him during his life.

The holy spirit is the spirit of truth.  Some have been given more than others and

every man according to his measure.  The more we invest, the more we receive,

If we invest little, we receive little.

It’s according to our labour in the Lord, not physical labour, but spiritual labour.

This involves seeking instruction and truth, which are likened as precious jewels, rare and so valuable.

A lazy man who does not seek the scriptures, or desire to know the finest details, will not get all the knowledge,

but in the end will get through because of faith if proven loyal when put to the ultimate test at the end of his walk.

Our spiritual walk is full of many tests, and we fail sometimes, because we are learning by our mistakes but covered during this period because of mercy.  We grow as we learn like little children.

But at the end of our walk, when mature, if we have not produced good fruits, we will not be prepared and could be taken unawares, like the example of the foolish virgins.

 

The fruits we produce, is what the spirit produces.  Godliness, righteousness, self control, spiritual knowledge, discernment, possessing the gifts of the spirit etc.

Some produce more fruits than others. Some produce bad fruits.

I believe these ones that produce many good fruits will shine above his fellows who invested little but made it because of faith.

 

And some just will just come in at the final hour, not having enough time to learn all the precious things, but possess faith, and forgiveness of his sins.

Each star will shine bright, but all vary,

and together they will seem spectacular.

 

 

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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Hello Retrobyter,

 

Sure, the saints will "meet the Lord in the air," but ... where do we go from there? We CERTAINLY do not go to “heaven!” Yeshua` just made the trip BACK to earth!

 

 

Well lets take a close look @ what Scripture says...

 

(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

 

"so shall we ever be with the Lord." ---- Where's does the LORD reside?  That's where we go.

 

and... (John 14:2) " In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

 

And technically Christ doesn't return to the "Earth" (Land), HE meets us in the Clouds.

 

 

Why would He turn around and go back to “heaven?!” 

 

 

The moment you start a sentence with "Why" renders it a Philosophical/Theological Question.  And WHY "would HE"....well, unless you know the mind of GOD, the question is Exponential Magnitudes beyond answer.

 

 

That’s just a wasted trip.  There’s no reason to come “pick us up”

 

 

Gathering HIS Bride is a wasted trip?  Doesn't the Bride have to be prepared?

 

 

....when God can protect us THROUGH the “tribulation” just fine!

 

 

The question is not what HE can or can't do.  The Question is....What does Scripture Say HE does?

 

If you're saying the "The Church"/Born Again Christians go THROUGH the Great Tribulation and are protected....please show where?

 

Also...

 

Any other position than the Pre-Trib position has "The Church"/Born Again Christians going through the Great Tribulation....

Well 98% of "The Church"/Born Again Christians are DEAD (From Pentecost until now or when it's time).  So for "The Church" to go through the "Great Tribulation" on the Earth, They would have to be RESURRECTED and Walking around on the Earth so as to go through The Great Tribulation.

Please show this scenario in Scripture.....?

 

 

Did He prevent the three Hebrew children given the names Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego from being thrown in the fiery furnace? Of course not! His presence was with them THROUGH the fire!

 

 

There is no doubt IMHO, this is a "Type" concerning the Great Tribulation.  Yes HE protected them (and it's STATED in Scripture HE was there specifically)...the question is, where was Daniel?  What does Daniel "Type" represent?

[Sister]

If the Body of Christ is in the 3rd heaven in the tribulation, then what is it`s purpose there?

 

Blessings, Marilyn.

 

 

Hi Marilyn

Thank you again.

 

I don't really know what the third heaven is.  Paul just knew a man that was taken up there  and saw a terrible vision.  Not much is mentioned, nor revealed about this third heaven.  Even Paul was confused.

As for your question, I don't see in the scriptures where the body of Christ is taken up during the tribulation.

The saints will be here for the start of the tribulation, and will be persecuted for their faith by the false prophet.

They will be persecuted for refusing to conform to this new system which denies Christ.

The ultimate test would be to take the mark of the beast or refuse it.  To save one's life for Christ's sake, or lose it.

This tribulation on the saints is from the false prophet, not from God, however God allows it because he is testing who's kingdom we will chose when it comes to the crunch (our lives)

After the persecutions are carried out, now it's tribulation on the world from Christ.  Revenge.

Most of the saints will be gone by then, but some will have their lives spared in prison, or in hiding..God knows, .because at the end of the tribulation, just before the coming there will be saints disappearing, but the majority will be killed way before this stage (maybe 3/2 years earlier).

 

So the tribulation coming involves the persecution of the saints, and then wrath on the world (Babylon) for all their evil and ungodliness, leading up to the coming where Babylon (the system) and all her merchandise is destroyed in one hour.

The 144,000 firstfruits are taken up first to meet the Lord in the air.  This will happen just before Armagedon, so around the 6th trump.  They are shown to be standing in Mt Zion with Christ alone.  No other saints there yet.

At the 7th trump, the rest of the saints will be resurrected, and those alive picked up to meet the Lord in the air.

The Mt Zion which the 144K are standing on is not the physical Mt Zion, but the spiritual Zion.  In God's realm now, awaiting their brothers to join them.

[Sister]

Hmmm.... Do I detect a bit of sarcasm there? Sure, the saints will "meet the Lord in the air," but ... where do we go from there? We CERTAINLY do not go to “heaven!” Yeshua` just made the trip BACK to earth! Why would He turn around and go back to “heaven?!” That’s just a wasted trip.

 

Shalom Retrobyter

 

No sarcasm intended.  Just pointing out the conversation was leading away from the topic.  You were talking about brightness of stars, and I answered you, so I am guilty of going off topic too!

 

When we meet the Lord in the air, we are changed to spirit.  We are in the heavenly realm now.  Spirit can travel fast.  I don't know if we make that speedy trip to heaven it does not say that specifically, but I imagine we follow in Christ's footsteps.

Christ when resurrected, was witnessed first by Mary.  He said for her not to touch him until he's been to the Father.  He went up to the Father, and was back that evening to meet with the apostles. The same will probably happen for us, to be witnessed by men first, then meet the Father.  But we don't really know much about heaven, just that it's a different world.  I don't picture it as a small place, but picture it as a very large dimension.  We will be in that same dimension, whether in heaven or on earth, as we are now one with the Father.

Seeing as Christ is one with the Father, we will be united with "The Word of God" himself. 

 

 

There’s no reason to come “pick us up” when God can protect us THROUGH the “tribulation” just fine! Did He prevent the three Hebrew children given the names Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego from being thrown in the fiery furnace? Of course not! His presence was with them THROUGH the fire!

 

 

The pick us up bit, happens at the 7th trump.  God can protect us through the tribulation if he wants, but most have to go through the fire, just like Christ and the apostles did.

If we are "sealed" and are spared throughout the whole tribulation, then the plagues and the wrath of God will not harm us.  We will be protected, and men will see it.

 

 

Secondly, you are not understanding the parable of the Sower correctly. Let’s say that the KJV is all that you think it is. Then, you should be aware that the parable of the Sower is NOT about “Christianity,” the “Body of Christ,” or the “Church!” It’s all about the KINGDOM OF GOD, a concept with which the Jews were quite familiar! If one simply looks at Mark 1:14-15, one can see that no explanation was necessary:

 

 

Before Christ came there was no light, the world was in darkness.

The Jews had disappointed God, and he was no longer happy with their sacrifices and oblations.

They were sent many prophets which they killed.

Christ was sent to preach to them first.  He only gained a handful,

but the majority rejected.

So Christ's Word went out to the gentiles, and this is the gospel that has been preached throughout the nations.

The gospel is the good news, that a new kingdom is coming. 

The Jews knew this, but didn't understand what it took to be a part of this new kingdom,

because they rejected the only one that could take them there, and that is Jesus Christ.

The seed sown is the "truth" , "the light", of the new kingdom coming, and what it takes to get there.

The truth was preached verbally, and after that, in scrolls written to the churches.

The enemy planted the spirit of Antichrist (against Christ's teachings) but they were only murmerings.

Once the Word was put in print and available to all, there was something solid to attack.

The good seed (the truth) has remained, but the bad seed has grown also, and keeps growing and growing, choking it.

As time goes by the weeds are getting worse, and as we know, weeds always take over.

God said to let both grow until the harvest, then he will cut the weeds down, and store the wheat.

These weeds which were sown from the time of Christ's ministry have only gotten worse.

Not all weeds are the unbelievers, but within christendom, there are weeds also.

These are the bad fruits, and were not planted by God, but by the enemy.

They have grown worse and worse, and are choking the truth, deceiving the masses.

But the truth is still there, and we have to get through all the weeds to find it.

The holy spirit will do his job, if the heart is right, and God will draw us to that good seed, the truth.  The pure undefiled Word of God, reliable for doctrine and reproof.

 

Matthew 7:14   Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

 

 

 

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

==============================================================================================

 

Hey Sister, 

 

Just a general comment:  Do you have any Scripture Support whatsoever for any of "your" postulates here....?

 

Can't get to each... a little busy today, but this should cover it...

 

I don't see in the scriptures where the body of Christ is taken up during the tribulation.

 

 

First of all, its the "Great Tribulation".  Let's try and be as precise as possible, it limits misunderstandings and prevents Equivocations (Fallacies).  There is no "tribulation" except generalized tribulations that we all experience to some degree or another. The "Great Tribulation" is quite specific...it starts in the midst of Daniel's 70th Week with the Abomination of Desolation and lasts for 3.5 Years and culminates with Christ's Return.  (Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:15)

 

If you don't see "The Church" caught up during the Great Tribulation (The Book Revelation) or taken up after the Great Tribulation----- which is Non-Sequitur (Fallacy) to begin with....AND there is A Rapture for "The Church"/Born Again Christians, clearly described here....

 

(1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  {18} Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

 

Then the only other choice is.....it has to Happen BEFORE:  Pre-Great Tribulation Rapture.

 

 

The saints will be here for the start of the tribulation, and will be persecuted for their faith by the false prophet.

 

 

What Saints?  The Tribulation Saints of Rev Chapter 7 and Chapter 13?  They are not "The Church"/Born Again Christians.  They are the Group that's converted during the Great Tribulation.....As Evidenced By:

 

(Revelation 13:7) "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

 

Those "saints" were OVERCOME.

 

But Christ said about HIS Church...(Matthew 16:18) " And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

 

Either you're right or Christ is right; They are Mutually Exclusive....both can't be correct.

 

Moreover, John didn't recognize these "saints" and had to ask who they were...

 

(Revelation 7:13-14) "And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?  {14} And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

 

 

The 144,000 firstfruits are taken up first to meet the Lord in the air.

 

 

Are you saying that this is speaking to the 144,000??....

 

(1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  {18} Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

 

The 144,000 are Jews, Exclusively.  Are the Jews Exclusively...."The Church"?  Are you saying Paul was talking about The Jews in the Passage above?

 

You are aware of this, from Paul?....(Romans 11:25) "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

 

Moreover, 1 Thess 4:16 says the DEAD will rise first....ahhh, did these 144,000 die first?

 

Furthermore...

 

Any other position than the Pre-Great Trib Rapture position has "The Church"/Born Again Christians going through the Great Tribulation....

 

Well 98% of "The Church"/Born Again Christians are DEAD (From Pentecost until now or when it's time).  So for "The Church" to go through the "Great Tribulation" on the Earth, They would have to be RESURRECTED and Walking around on the Earth so as to go through The Great Tribulation.

 

Please show this scenario in Scripture.....?

 

 

At the 7th trump, the rest of the saints will be resurrected, and those alive picked up to meet the Lord in the air.

 

 

What saints?  The Tribulation Saints (you referred to above) are in Heaven in Rev Chapter 7.... BEFORE the 7th Seal is opened.

 

Please show a RESURRECTION between....

 

(Revelation 11:15) "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 

 

and here...

 

(Revelation 16:1) "And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth."

 

....in which they meet the LORD in the air?

 

 

Maybe this will shed some LIGHT on the matter and clear up much confusion......What is The Purpose (From Scripture) of the Great Tribulation?

[KPaulG]

 

Shalom, Marilyn C.

 

Hi Retrobyter,

 

I will cut to the main point now.

 

You said  `"Mashiach" also means an "Anointed" one. The word does NOT mean that Yeshua` is God or God the Son! To the contrary, it means that He is the Son of God, destined to be the King...`

 

It seems to me you are saying that Jesus is not God. This is against Worthy`s Statement of Faith which you agreed to when you became a member. Or agreed not to teach against this. 

 

I am NOT saying or teaching that Yeshua` is not God. HOWEVER, I am probably more “trinitarian” in one respect than those who claim to believe in a Trinity: They are THREE SEPARATE PERSONS!!! They have unique and individual PERSONALITY TRAITS and/or ATTRIBUTES!

 

If there’s one thing I can’t stand it’s Christians calling “Yeshua`” (whom they always name “Jesus”) “God" and “Father!” THAT’S WRONG! Even in our prayers, we are to discipline ourselves to understand that the three Persons are present in DIFFERENT ROLES within our prayers! We are to pray TO THE FATHER; we are to pray IN THE NAME (or ON THE AUTHORITY) OF YESHUA` (JESUS); and our prayers are interpreted and delivered by the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit)!

 

Matthew 6:9-13

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

KJV

 

Luke 11:1-4

1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.

2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

3 Give us day by day our daily bread.

4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

KJV

 

 

John 14:12-20

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

KJV

 

John 16:22-28

22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.

23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

KJV

 

Romans 8:26-27

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

KJV

 

To whom did Yeshua` pray? Is He schizophrenic?! Is He mentally fragmented?! Does He have a split personality?! Was He talking to Himself?! OF COURSE NOT! He was praying to His FATHER, a completely different PERSON than Himself!

 

Now, I know: The Scriptures also say, “I and my Father are one”:

 

John 10:26-40

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one (Greek: Egoo kai ho Pateer hen esmen).

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.

KJV

 

But, in Hebrew that word would be “echad!” The word is also used in another key passage: 

 

Genesis 2:23-24

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh (Hebrew: v-haayuw l-baasaar echaad).

KJV

 

And, should there be any doubt, Yeshua` Himself used this:

 

Matthew 19:4-6

4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? (Greek: kai esontai hoi duo eis sarka mian.)

6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh (Greek: alla sarka mian). What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

KJV

 

In Greek, “hen” and “mia” are the same number “ONE"; the first is just the masculine and the second is the feminine. Now, it is obvious that the man and the woman do not actually join like Siamese twins! They become one flesh in the sense that they are intimate (and I’m not just talking sexually)! The same is true for Yeshua`, the Son of God, and His Father, God!

 

Furthermore, if you look at John 14:20 above, is Yeshua` one with His Father in the same way that we are one with Him? If so, then wouldn’t that be much MORE than just a “Trinity?"

 

Also, consider the following:

 

John 17:20-23

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

KJV

 

So, there you have it. That’s my view on the Trinity, and also how we fit in, as well.

 

Now, I know what John 1:1-3, 14 say:

 

John 1:1-3

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

KJV

...

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

KJV

 

However, does this mean that, as the Word, He is STILL God in the same sense as the Word ORIGINALLY WAS, having NOW been made flesh? How does one know?

 

I also find it significant that in Revelation 21:23, this distinction is made AFTER the New Earth is made:

 

Revelation 21:23

23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.

NIV

 

God gives the LIGHT, but the Lamb, Yeshua`, is the LAMP!

 

:) Retrober, that is so encouraging.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Enoch2021.

 

 

Hello Retrobyter,

 

Sure, the saints will "meet the Lord in the air," but ... where do we go from there? We CERTAINLY do not go to “heaven!” Yeshua` just made the trip BACK to earth!

 

 

Well lets take a close look @ what Scripture says...

 

(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

 

"so shall we ever be with the Lord." ---- Where's does the LORD reside?  That's where we go.

 

and... (John 14:2) " In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

 

And technically Christ doesn't return to the "Earth" (Land), HE meets us in the Clouds.

 

 

Why would He turn around and go back to “heaven?!” 

 

 

The moment you start a sentence with "Why" renders it a Philosophical/Theological Question.  And WHY "would HE"....well, unless you know the mind of GOD, the question is Exponential Magnitudes beyond answer.

 

 

That’s just a wasted trip.  There’s no reason to come “pick us up”

 

 

Gathering HIS Bride is a wasted trip?  Doesn't the Bride have to be prepared?

 

 

....when God can protect us THROUGH the “tribulation” just fine!

 

 

The question is not what HE can or can't do.  The Question is....What does Scripture Say HE does?

 

If you're saying the "The Church"/Born Again Christians go THROUGH the Great Tribulation and are protected....please show where?

 

Also...

 

Any other position than the Pre-Trib position has "The Church"/Born Again Christians going through the Great Tribulation....

Well 98% of "The Church"/Born Again Christians are DEAD (From Pentecost until now or when it's time).  So for "The Church" to go through the "Great Tribulation" on the Earth, They would have to be RESURRECTED and Walking around on the Earth so as to go through The Great Tribulation.

Please show this scenario in Scripture.....?

 

 

Did He prevent the three Hebrew children given the names Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego from being thrown in the fiery furnace? Of course not! His presence was with them THROUGH the fire!

 

 

There is no doubt IMHO, this is a "Type" concerning the Great Tribulation.  Yes HE protected them (and it's STATED in Scripture HE was there specifically)...the question is, where was Daniel?  What does Daniel "Type" represent?

 

 

I’m going to answer you first because the others will take a bit more time.

 

This is the rub for the NT not specifying “Lord” from “LORD,” neither in English nor in Greek! In Hebrew, there is a difference between “Lord” (“Adonay”) and “LORD” (“YHWH”). Not so in the Greek: The same word “Kurios” was used for BOTH! One can see this best in the Greek translation of a quoted text from the OT. So, WHICH “Lord” is Paul talking about? Well, which One will descend “away from the sky” “in a cry of excitement,” “with the address of a chief-messenger,” and “in a shofar-blowing of God?” That would be the Master, Yeshua`, the Mashiach Elohim (the Messiah of God). Thus, the word in Hebrew would have been “Adonay,” not “YHWH.” So, the question should NOT have been, “Where does the LORD reside?” but rather, “Where does the Lord reside?” And, since this is talking about the Son of God and since Yeshua` is called an “apostolos” (“sent-one”) in Hebrews 3:1, He resides wherever His Father sends Him! For instance, He resided on earth in Israel for about 33 years! He shall reside on earth and in the nation Israel again for at least another 1,000 years at the end of this age, and longer still in the age to come!

 

Now, you DON’T KNOW that “Christ doesn't return to the "Earth" (Land)!” It’s simply not discussed in 1 Thes. 4! Notice that Paul does NOT say WHERE they (we) are going to be “ever with the Lord!” Technically, they (we) will be WHEREVER the Lord goes! That means that we go wherever He is determined to go! Listen to Yeshua`s last words:

 

Matthew 23:37-39

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

KJV

 

Now, the interesting thing about the phrase “Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord” is that it comes from the OT:

 

Psalm 118:21-26

21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation.

22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.

25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.

26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

KJV

 

So, as I said before, the Greek word “Kurios” this time comes from the Hebrew word “YHWH."

 

The Hebrew of verse 26 is transliterated as...

 

Tehil 118:26

26 Baruwkh haba’ b-shem YHWH: beerakhnukhem mi-beeyt YHWH.

JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh

 

The words “Baruwkh haba’” are the words that mean “Welcome, comer” in Hebrew. In its plural form, the phrase is found at the airports and seaports in Israel.

 

One can go to http://www.ulpan.net/10-ways-to-say-hello-in-hebrew and see way #8.

 

One can also view http://www.worldofstock.com/slides/ANB3209.jpg and http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/236x/c5/34/80/c5348065e5263761aaa6fe05eda64894.jpg.

Furthermore, “in [the] name” (b-shem) simply means “in/on [the] authority of."

 

Thus, the phrase literally means “Welcome, Comer on the authority of YAH!” It means that the one doing the talking recognizes Yeshua` as God’s Messiah, coming with God’s authority! Therefore, Yeshua` was saying that they would NOT see Him return until they could accept Him as God’s Messiah! This they WILLINGLY will do because of an attempt at their genocide!

 

Zechariah 12:1-3

1 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

KJV

 

Zechariah 12:7-9

7 The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

KJV

 

Zechariah 14:1-3

1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

KJV

 

Joel 3:1-17

1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.

4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompence me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head;

5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things:

6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border.

7 Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head:

8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it.

9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:

10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.

11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O Lord.

12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.

15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

17 So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

KJV

 

Now, one must ask oneself, “When is the first resurrection?” Is it JUST before the 7-year Tribulation (for the “Church”)? OR, is it before the 7-year Tribulation period (for the "Church”) and AFTER the 7-year Tribulation (for Isra’el) and those who come out of the Tribulation? Some have even suggested that the Patriarchs won’t be resurrected until AFTER the Millennium! (How crazy is that? So, the Patriarchs - Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as well as the literal, original children of Israel or Jacob, his twelve sons - won’t participate in the Messiah’s Kingdom DURING the Millennium?! That’s LUDICROUS!)

 

So, the “first resurrection” (spoken about in 1 Thes. 4:13-17 and 1 Cor. 15:50-57, key passages used for a pretrib rapture) has a “part A” and a “part B?” THAT’S a stretch! Neither 1 Thessalonians 4 nor 1 Corinthians 15 says ANYTHING about two separate times when the resurrection takes place! And, when one compares these passages to Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 (the Olivet Discourse), one finds the similarities between what pretribbers claim is the “Second Coming” and the “Pretribulational Rapture” of 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15:

 

Matthew 24:29-31

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

KJV

 

Mark 13:24-27

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

KJV

 

Luke 21:25-28

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

KJV

 

So, tell me again why there is a “pretribulational rapture resurrection” and a “second coming resurrection” when they are both considered to be the “first resurrection?"

[Marilyn C]

Hi Retrobyter,

 

`First resurrection` means the first type of (the righteous) resurrection which is to life, while the second death has no power over them. Different groups are resurrected at different times in God`s plan. They receive the resurrection of life while others come before God`s judgment throne at the end of time but do not have resurrected, glorified bodies of the righteous. The second death awaits them. (Rev. 20: 6, 11 - 15)