Where is the Body of Christ in the Millennium?

[PeteWaldo]

My only answer to all this is, with no discussion nor debate..................

 

the body of Christ will be right where He wants them to be...........

 

Some mysteries will never be solved.......

 

until they are fully revealed....

 

 

Amen~!

Indeed Joe, and being in the Matt Henry Isaac Newton camp in these regards, I believe the church might have been better served if folks had stuck with waiting until they could see the miracle of fulfilled prophecy, rather than being distracted away from that stunning fulfillment by advancing prophecy as if it were intended to make us all prophets.

 

Matthew Henry: "Those things of God which are now dark and obscure will hereafter be made clear, and easy to be understood. Truth is the daughter of time. Scripture prophecies will be expounded by the accomplishment of them; therefore they are given, and for that explication they are reserved. Therefore they are told us before, that, when they do come to pass, we may believe."

 

Isaac Newton: "The folly of interpreters has been to foretell times and things by this prophecy [Revelation], as if God designed to make them prophets. By this rashness they have not only exposed themselves, but brought the prophecy also into contempt. The design of God was much otherwise. He gave this and the prophecies of the Old Testament, not to gratify men's curiosities by enabling them to foreknow things, but that after they were fulfilled they might be interpreted by the event, and his own providence, not the interpreters', be then manifested thereby to the world. For the event of things predicted many ages before will then be a convincing argument that the world is governed by Providence."

 

Now that we may well be in what Daniel's prophecy refers to as the "time of the end" and the false prophet Muhammad and his Islamic kingdom beast have been revealed as the final foe of God's people, there are few eyes to see it. Half the church can't even accept that the restoration of the Jews to their covenant land is of the Lord, in spite of the stunning reality, because of the counter-reformation eschatology they have been taught.

Edited November 3, 2014 by OneLight

[OneLight]

It is interesting that you quote Matthew Henry and Issac Newton, yet interpret prophecy by pointing to Muhammad as the false prophet and Islam as the beast. 

[PeteWaldo]

It is interesting that you quote Matthew Henry and Issac Newton, yet interpret prophecy by pointing to Muhammad as the false prophet and Islam as the beast. 

Why "interesting"? They had lots of different ideas, but they both recognized that Daniel's "time of the end" was yet in their future, and that until that time came the book would remain sealed.

 

Matt: "VI. That this prophecy of those times, though sealed up now, would be of great use to those that should live then, v. 4. Daniel must now shut up the words and seal the book....

Those things of God which are now dark and obscure will hereafter be made clear, and easy to be understood.

 

Isaac: Daniel was commanded to shut up and seal, till the time of the end. Daniel sealed it until the time of the end; {Daniel 12:4, 9} and until that time comes, the Lamb is opening the seals:....

All which is as much as to say, that these Prophecies of Daniel and John should not be understood till the time of the end: .... But in the very end, the Prophecy should be so far interpreted as to convince many."

 

Let alone so many reformers recognized Islam, at least in Revelation chapter 9.

 

Of Revelation chapter 9:  John Foxe who authored Foxe’s Book of Martyrs wrote that it is “clearer than light itself” as being a prophecy of the Muslim conquests.

 

Albert Barnes: “With surprising unanimity, commentators have agreed in regarding this to the empire of the Saracens (Muslims), or to the rise and the progress of the religion and the empire set up by Muhammed.”

 

W.B. Godbey: “This chapter is a thrilling description of the rise and progress of the Mohammedan wars.”

 

Of the locusts of Revelation 9:  Adam Clarke: “certainly agrees better with the Saracens than with any other people or nation” and “agrees very well with the troops of Mohammed.”

 

Matthew Henry: “the armies of the Mohamedan empire.”

 

John Wesley: “All this agrees with the slaughter which the Saracens made for a long time after Mahomet’s death.”

Edited November 2, 2014 by PeteWaldo

[OneLight]

Yet you use material of those who died way before the end times.  How can you say they are true or not?  The meaning is closed until the end times, as scripture tells us, not before the end time.  Again, some mysteries are meant to remain mysteries until they come about, then faith grows.  Why spend time trying to understand the secret mysteries?  God will make them clear through His Spirit, not through man's wisdom.

[PeteWaldo]

Yet you use material of those who died way before the end times.  How can you say they are true or not?  The meaning is closed until the end times, as scripture tells us, not before the end time.  Again, some mysteries are meant to remain mysteries until they come about, then faith grows.  Why spend time trying to understand the secret mysteries?  God will make them clear through His Spirit, not through man's wisdom.

You seem to have forgotten that I initially brought up Matthew Henry and Isaac Newton, to point out that I was in their camp as to not abusing prophecy by using it to predict the future, as if it were intended to make us all prophets. That has been relevant throughout the Christian era.

 

They indicated themselves that they could not know because they knew they were not in the "time of the end", any more than John Nelson Darby was, unless the early 19th century was in the time of the end. I listed others that recognized Muhammad and Islam in prophecy since your response seemed to indicate that you weren't aware of that they did.

 

But what if the book of Daniel was unsealed, not by the imagination of men, but by the simple passage of time and fulfillment of Bible prophecy that could only be seen through hindsight? And what if it could be confirmed mathematically that we are indeed in the "time of the end"?

Edited November 2, 2014 by PeteWaldo

[PeteWaldo]

Yet you use material of those who died way before the end times.

That seems to indicate that you think we are in the "end times", is that correct?

[OneLight]

I see the end times as the last generation.  Since theirs was not, they were not.  I claim nothing else.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Enoch2021.

 

 

 

 

 

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You give walls of text for your rationale that are clearly and simply refuted by the "Context" of Luke 21 and Matthew 24, respectively. (As I outlined in previously)

 

 

You may not want to hear it, but the “abomination of desolation” IS “Jerusalem compassed with armies”

 

 

No, it's not....

 

(Matthew 24:15) " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)" 

 

(Daniel 9:27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

 

Please show these "armies" in the above passage.

 

(Daniel 11:31) "And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate."

 

This is talking about...standing in the Temple and the ac claiming that he is GOD, among other atrocities.  Just as Antiochus IV Epiphanes did that set off the Maccabean Revolt in 167 BC.

 

 

Moreover, if Jerusalem was surrounded by "armies" then what would happen to the Jews "Fleeing"...they'd run right into the "armies"! ....

 

(Matthew 24:15-19) " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  {16}  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  {17}  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:  {18}  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.  {19}  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!"

 

 

Furthermore, this gives evidence to what I’ve been saying: The “Tribulation” is NOT 7 years long!

 

 

 huh?

 

You said.... Retrobyter: "Is it JUST before the 7-year Tribulation (for the “Church”)? OR, is it before the 7-year Tribulation period (for the "Church”) and AFTER the 7-year Tribulation (for Isra’el) and those who come out of the Tribulation?"

Here in Post #179: 

 

 

 

In reference to the "tribulation"....It began in the first century, but it has been continuing through today, and it will continue until signs in the sun, moon, and stars occur and the Messiah returns!

 

 

Again....it's not "tribulation" it's the "Great Tribulation".  

 

I think our conversation has run it's course.  

 

Hope you find the TRUTH

 

 

“Our conversation has run its course?” I don’t think it’s even begun!

 

You said and asked, “No, it's not....

 

(Matthew 24:15) 'When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)' 

 

(Daniel 9:27) 'And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.'

 

Please show these ‘armies' in the above passage."

 

Quite simple:

 

Daniel 9:26

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

KJV

 

The highlighted portion is simply talking about the army of Titus that came in and around 65-70 A.D. This is NOT talking about some “antichrist” of the future! It is talking about the VERY REAL and the VERY HISTORICAL Roman army that came and destroyed both the city and the Temple in 70 A.D. The destruction happened 40 years after the Messiah was cut off. Verse 27 is also about that same Messiah:

 

Daniel 9:27

27 And he (the Messiah) shall confirm the (Davidic) covenant with many for one week (Seven - of years): and in the midst of the week (1/2 of Seven = 3-1/2 years) he (the Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (Hebrews 10:10-22 cff. Matthew 27:50-53), and for the overspreading of abominations (Matthew 23:1-37) he (the Messiah) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation (Matthew 23:38-39), and that determined (the tribulation) shall be poured upon the desolate (those left desolate, Israel).

KJV

 

YESHUA` (JESUS) is the One who brought on the desolation for their many abominations in rejecting Him as their King! These verses have NOTHING to do with an “antichrist” of the future! Notice, too, that it’s “THE PEOPLE of the prince (Titus) that shall come” who destroyed the city and the sanctuary! According to the historian Josephus, the leaders tried to PREVENT the destruction of the Temple, but the fire that was set there melted the gold which ran down in between the blocks of the Temple walls, and the SOLDIERS tore the walls apart to get to the gold!

 

Daniel 11:31 is talking about Antiochus IV Epiphanies, not about some “antichrist" of the future! CONTEXT!

 

When in Post #179 I asked, 'Is it JUST before the 7-year Tribulation (for the “Church”)? OR, is it before the 7-year Tribulation period (for the "Church”) and AFTER the 7-year Tribulation (for Isra’el) and those who come out of the Tribulation?,’ I was using the terminology of others, not my own. I probably should have put each part in quotation marks, as well, but I took a short-cut because I was already using quotation marks for the “Church,” a term in which I also do not believe. It probably should have been written thus:

 

Is it JUST “before the 7-year Tribulation (for the ‘Church’)?” OR, is it “before the 7-year Tribulation period (for the ‘Church’)” and “AFTER the 7-year Tribulation (for Isra’el) and those who come out of the Tribulation?”

 

At NO TIME did I want anyone to think that any of these were MY positions! Sorry for the confusion.

 

Finally, “Great Tribulation” is NOT A LABEL for some 3.5-year time period!!! The Greek is simply “thlipsis megalee” and means a “huge pressure.” And, I would say that almost 2,000 years of “pressure” put upon the children of Israel is pretty “huge," isn’t it?

[PeteWaldo]

Finally, “Great Tribulation” is NOT A LABEL for some 3.5-year time period!!! The Greek is simply “thlipsis megalee” and means a “huge pressure.” And, I would say that almost 2,000 years of “pressure” put upon the children of Israel is pretty “huge," isn’t it?

I agree, and will remain humbly honored to be my brother John's companion in THE tribulation (NKJV contains the definite article as in the Koine Greek):

 

Rev 1:9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

So if there was to be a "pre-trib" "rapture" it seems it would have had to have at least preceded John's pen.

I believe the 20th century is the period indicated as being of greater tribulation than any other period, with 60 million killed in WW2 alone, including 8 million Jews in the Holocaust!

 

And I will also be humbly honored to remain John's brother and companion in THE kingdom of Jesus Christ (KJV includes the definite article in the Koine Greek):

 

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

John's brother in THE kingdom of Jesus Christ - the kingdom of God - since otherwise, Jesus would have prophesied falsely:

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. 

 

Mar 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Luk 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Edited November 2, 2014 by PeteWaldo

[PeteWaldo]

My only answer to all this is, with no discussion nor debate ... the body of Christ will be right where He wants them to be.

There is no debate if you are talking about a tiny remnant.

But do you really think the body of Christ is right where Jesus wants it, when nearly half of the church must believe the other nearly half of the church - to necessarily be nearly 100% in error regarding their understanding of the book of Revelation (after chapter 3) - since a 1900 year gulf separates the two popular views?

What might be revealed when we take the traditional historicist approach to Bible prophecy, of all Christians and Jews to Old Testament prophecy, and the first 1800 years of the church and those great men of God of the Reformation, to New Testament prophecy?

Someone might get the wrong impression that you can square your claim with 2 Thessalonians 2:3, in spite of what has been going on in the institutional "church" and its apostasy and interfaith pluralism.

Edited November 3, 2014 by OneLight