Breaking Fellowship

[Littlelambseativy]

Where would you put Paul in your church? He says that the things he wants to do he does not do yet the things he does not want to do he does! Would this keep him out if church?? According to your posts it certainly would. There is no better place for a sinner than in church - he will hear the Gospel and have no excuse when he stands before God and is asked " What did you do with My Son Jesus?"

[Qnts2]

Where would you put Paul in your church? He says that the things he wants to do he does not do yet the things he does not want to do he does! Would this keep him out if church?? According to your posts it certainly would. There is no better place for a sinner than in church - he will hear the Gospel and have no excuse when he stands before God and is asked " What did you do with My Son Jesus?"

 

Paul wasn't by nature a sinner any longer. I stated that a saint desires to do the will of God. Paul wanted to do the will of God, so Paul was a saint (and still is). 

 

A saint desires to do the will of God, and will continue of grow and mature.

 

A sinner by nature sins by nature. They desire to satisfy themselves. A sinner doesn't need to learn how to live pretending to be a saint. A sinner needs to hear the gospel of salvation. Hopefully a church gathering is for the benefit and maturity of the saints, so the saints can go out and share the gospel with the sinners.  If a sinner hears and accepts the gospel they will be changed onto a saint with a desire to please God.

[Qnts2]

I agree Qnts2..........and technically, we've misunderstood the great commission and the setup of the church.  Church was supposed to be, if you will, a classroom setting for the believer, to be equipped to fulfill the great commission, which was to "GO out unto them", then if they are willing to receive The Word of Truth, they come into the church to be equipped, edified as well, to be able to "go out" and lead others unto the Truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  The church of today, has it all backwards and just like the breaking fellowship issue, we have not set up the church correctly as instructed in the Scriptures.  But, rather have set it up according to the desires of men, rather than the desires of God.

 

In His Love,

Suzanne

 

Yes, I agree.

 

The church, or rather, the assembly of the brethren, was a place for Christians to support each other, pray for each other, learn, and grow.

[tsth]

Where would you put Paul in your church? He says that the things he wants to do he does not do yet the things he does not want to do he does! Would this keep him out if church?? According to your posts it certainly would. There is no better place for a sinner than in church - he will hear the Gospel and have no excuse when he stands before God and is asked " What did you do with My Son Jesus?"

You should have continued in the Scriptures...as Paul did.......you are referring to Romans 7, but should have read the "whole" counsel of God, by the finished thought in Chapter 8.  (Chapters can hinder us, if you let them...but the context was continued in Chapter 8, this way):

 

Romans 7-8

 

7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

Victory in Chapter 8!

 

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

 

In His Love,

Suzanne

[GoldenEagle]

 

I find this curious, is the church for saints or sinners?? To teach and help the sinner to change his way no matter how long. Do the members no longer sin daily and need forgiveness but are pure??

 

I think we need to understand what you mean by saint or sinner.

 

In my view, a saint is a person who has believed on Jesus and his completed work, and been born again, receiving a new nature. Therefore, a saved person no longer has a nature which desires to sin, but rather, might sin, but their desire is do please God. The change is from a sinner to a saint. Only a saint, with the new creation, is a member of the church scripturally.

 

A carnal Christian might commit a willful sin. It is when a carnal Christian commits a willful sin, and when approached shows no remorse but rather defends or boasts. That is the person who needs to be put out of fellowship, in hopes they repent. They are to be treated as one who is not saved, or a sinner.

 

Now, how do we treat a sinner? Well, a sinner needs to hear the gospel of salvation. They are not members of the church, as they have a different spiritual makeup, with a desire for themselves and sin, rather then God. They need to hear the plan of God, why it was needed, Who accomplished it, and what Jesus did.     

 

I hear this idea of a carnal Christian a lot. Where do you get this in the Bible Q? Curious.

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

Does your church body practice this?

 

1 Cor. 5:11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person.

 

2 Thess. 3:14 And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed.

I'm not sure if my church body practices this. I know of one instance where this was practiced.

Does your church practice this Suzzanne? How does this look like if so in your church?

 

However, it's not just Paul that talked about Church discipline.

 

 

Matt. 5:15-20

If Your Brother Sins Against You

¹⁵ “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. ¹⁶ But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. ¹⁷ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. ¹⁸ Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. ¹⁹ Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. ²⁰ For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

 

God bless,

GE

[Qnts2]

 

 

I find this curious, is the church for saints or sinners?? To teach and help the sinner to change his way no matter how long. Do the members no longer sin daily and need forgiveness but are pure??

 

I think we need to understand what you mean by saint or sinner.

 

In my view, a saint is a person who has believed on Jesus and his completed work, and been born again, receiving a new nature. Therefore, a saved person no longer has a nature which desires to sin, but rather, might sin, but their desire is do please God. The change is from a sinner to a saint. Only a saint, with the new creation, is a member of the church scripturally.

 

A carnal Christian might commit a willful sin. It is when a carnal Christian commits a willful sin, and when approached shows no remorse but rather defends or boasts. That is the person who needs to be put out of fellowship, in hopes they repent. They are to be treated as one who is not saved, or a sinner.

 

Now, how do we treat a sinner? Well, a sinner needs to hear the gospel of salvation. They are not members of the church, as they have a different spiritual makeup, with a desire for themselves and sin, rather then God. They need to hear the plan of God, why it was needed, Who accomplished it, and what Jesus did.     

 

I hear this idea of a carnal Christian a lot. Where do you get this in the Bible Q? Curious.

God bless,

GE

 

 

The area which mainly introduces the idea of a carnal Christian is 1 Corintians 3

 

1 Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

² I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

³ For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

 

So, there is a mention of 'babes' being carnal. Usually in scripture carnality is applied to those who are not saved, but in this instance, it is applied to Christians. In this case, the carnality is demonstrated as contention and strife among brethren.

 

If we look elsewhere:

 

 Gal 5:22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

²³ Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

²⁴ And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

²⁵ If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

 

The fruit of the Spirit becomes evident as Christians learn to walk in the Spirit and not after the flesh. Carnality is being occupied by the desires of the flesh, or relying on the flesh which is actually the way those without the Spirit, unsaved would live. But, a Christian can do things or live like an unsaved person.  

[Pamelasv]

Where would you put Paul in your church? He says that the things he wants to do he does not do yet the things he does not want to do he does! Would this keep him out if church?? According to your posts it certainly would. There is no better place for a sinner than in church - he will hear the Gospel and have no excuse when he stands before God and is asked " What did you do with My Son Jesus?"

 

 

You seem to be talking about new people, not those who are not new, having already heard the Gospel and having been called a 'brother', which the Apostle Paul is talking about. ??

 

Blessings.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Pamelasv

[tsth]

 

Does your church body practice this?

 

1 Cor. 5:11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person.

 

2 Thess. 3:14 And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed.

I'm not sure if my church body practices this. I know of one instance where this was practiced.

Does your church practice this Suzzanne? How does this look like if so in your church?

 

However, it's not just Paul that talked about Church discipline.

 

 

Matt. 5:15-20

If Your Brother Sins Against You

¹⁵ “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. ¹⁶ But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. ¹⁷ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. ¹⁸ Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. ¹⁹ Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. ²⁰ For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

 

God bless,

GE

 

 

 

Dear GE,

 

I have yet to find a church that follows this biblical doctrine....this is why I am posting the topic.  I am troubled about the state of affairs in the church, and I believe much has to do with this issue along w/the lack of teaching the "whole counsel of God".  Christians today, especially with the young adults are not aware of this instruction and are not taught how to biblically deal with someone named a brother in sin. I have a dd who has recently been confronted w/the problem of breaking fellowship, and many of her peers do not understand the teaching, because they have not been taught about it, and have a completely different view in terms of dealing with sin.  This is why I am concerned.

 

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Willa]

Our present church does not have a formal membership. You either attend or your don't. You start ministering to others as God leads you. It is less stuctured than most. So there is not formal excommunication. If someone brings a complaint to the pastor he askes if they had gone to the person and talked to them first. Then had they taken someone else with them to reason with them.

Our last church was structured. A member who was known to be practicing sin as a lifestyle was spoken to by a friend or relative and asked compassionately to repent. If they continued, a couple of people went with them to plea with the person. Then a pastor and elders went to the person. If they continued to live in sin they were reported to the congregation and their name was removed from membership. This occurred in the case of an adulterous relationship. It also occurred in the case of a person stealing from church funds. A third person had crooked business practices and had ripped off several different church members. It was good to know that these things were not tollerated.

The church before that allowed everything to go on. Several adulterous relationships were happening and elders were ripping off church members in business. Complaints to the pastor were not believed but unsubstantiated gossip was believed by him. Factions supporting doctrinal error were tollerated as well. One man was odaining people as pastors for tax perposes. Our pastor said he did not want to rip out the wheat with the tares so he did nothing.. I thought all churches must be like that. Thankfully they are not.